The temptation of Eve, did the devil try to share in our humanity?

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I do not have any problem with a talking serpent. I think that literally, Adam spoke with all the animals. Also, in the Genesis, it is written that before the creation of Eve, Adam was given the choice of a helper from all the animals. Maybe the serpent thought that Adam should have chosen him and have got a little adversity against Eve. And this was speculated by the devil who drove the serpent as a tempter. The devil must have had an edge from which to handle the temptation. The punishment of the serpent has meaning only if the serpent had some form of choice.
The quote is from another thread, and I was thinking…

Maybe when God asked Adam to choose a helper from the animals, He wanted to see if Adam is content with his human nature, if there is anything in the animal world that Adam might have considered superior and desirable.

Because the serpent was discontent with Eve and Adam’s choice the devil tried to use it to destroy Eve only; then the serpent would have taken Eve place so to speak and “improve” the humanity. It makes sense…
 
The serpent, the tempter is the devil. Don’t anthropomorphize a snake so far that you miss the point, which is that man wanted to be as God (and not that an animal wanted to be as man.)
 
The serpent, the tempter is the devil. Don’t anthropomorphize a snake so far that you miss the point, which is that man wanted to be as God (and not that an animal wanted to be as man.)
Which one is more likely:
To believe that in a perfect world, man was able to communicate directly with an animal ( I don’t mean that the animal had a fully developed language of 2000 words or so)
To believe that out of nowhere in the Garden of Eden shows up a talking serpent and Eve trusted it even she never saw something like that.
To believe that the whole story of the creation is people’s invention to explain somehow the sin

The story was validated by Jesus, He would have corrected it if necessary.
 
The quote is from another thread, and I was thinking…

Maybe when God asked Adam to choose a helper from the animals, He wanted to see if Adam is content with his human nature, if there is anything in the animal world that Adam might have considered superior and desirable.

Because the serpent was discontent with Eve and Adam’s choice the devil tried to use it to destroy Eve only; then the serpent would have taken Eve place so to speak and “improve” the humanity. It makes sense…
From post 1. He [God] wanted to see if Adam is content with his human nature, if there is anything in the animal world that Adam might have considered superior and desirable.

That is an interesting insight which supports Adam as having rational, intellective powers. Since Eve is the same nature as Adam, she, too, had the power of logical reasoning because she understood the seriousness of God’s command in Genesis, Chapter 3.

There are probably as many motives explaining Satan’s actions in the Garden as there are motives explaining Adam’s one action in the Garden. Thus, I wouldn’t want to actually p(name removed by moderator)oint Satan’s motive. However, connecting Satan to a knowledge of humanity gives me another idea. Knowing humanity, and maybe admiring humanity, and certainly jealous of humanity’s opportunity for eternal joy, Satan was able to figure out what Adam would fall for. (pun intended)
 
To believe that in a perfect world, man was able to communicate directly with an animal ( I don’t mean that the animal had a fully developed language of 2000 words or so)
I’ve no issue with this, per say. Doubtless un-fallen man would be possessed of such grace and union with God and His creation that he could communicate with with animals and such.

My issue is when stuff like this…
Maybe the serpent thought that Adam should have chosen him and have got a little adversity against Eve.
…gets pulled out of nowhere. It’s not a matter of a jilted animal’s seduction by the devil into bringing about the fall of humanity.

That’s not a bad story at all, really. But…where is it coming from? Animal’s lack the intellect to choose evil or good.

The snake that brought about the fall of man through old Eve is the same serpent whose head is crushed by the New Eve through which came man’s salvation. He is the dragon. He is the devil.

As for this,
To believe that out of nowhere in the Garden of Eden shows up a talking serpent and Eve trusted it even she never saw something like that.
She wouldn’t have much cause to doubt such a thing. Lacking a knowledge of evil and all.
The story was validated by Jesus,
Validated?
There are probably as many motives explaining Satan’s actions in the Garden
He hates God. God loves us, so he hates us too. He wants nothing more for us than our destruction.
 
Validated by Jesus, meaning the story is written exactly as it is supposed to be, to the letter.
I see no reason for not having the story written a little bit different as it have been in your interpretation. The serpent is declared to be an animal. The serpent is punished. Why specific enmity between the serpent and the woman, and not humanity? Didn’t Jesus said “Be wise as serpents…”? that doesn’t match a dumb as a doorknob animal, driven only by instincts. I do not believe that story, of the animals driven only by the instincts, walking roasts…
Indeed, the devil was leading the serpent, and the attack was towards humanity, but I think it didn’t work as the devil+serpent hoped.
 
Validated by Jesus, meaning the story is written exactly as it is supposed to be, to the letter.
🤷 I don’t know what that’s supposed to mean.

Extrapolating a snake’s emotional perspective doesn’t seem to imply much satisfaction with the text-as-written.

…are…are you suggesting a strictly literal interpretation?
The serpent is punished.
With leglessness? What of worms? Caecilians? What did they do to merit so awful a state?
Why specific enmity between the serpent and the woman, and not humanity?
For the same reason the Dragon would seek to devour the child of the Lady of the Apocalypse. It is a foreshadowing of the parts they will play in the larger drama.
Didn’t Jesus said “Be wise as serpents…”? that doesn’t match a dumb as a doorknob animal, driven only by instincts.
And owls are seen as wise and foxes crafty. He also said to remove your hand if it causes you to sin.
animals driven only by the instincts, walking roasts…
Slithering, in this case. 😛
 
Why not literal interpretation?
In the Catholic Church, interpretation of literal truths (Divine Revelation) is guided by the wisdom of the promised Holy Spirit and not dictated by personal human preferences. (chapter 14, Gospel of John)

Practically speaking, this means figuring out what some figurative language is teaching. The Catholic Church has done this since Pentecost. A good example are the writings of St. Paul and others in the New Testament.

It is true that many Catholic doctrines flow from the first three chapters of Genesis. Not every verse, figurative or literal, automatically becomes a declared doctrine. The Catholic Church has a strict protocol for defining, explaining and preserving Divine Revelation.
 
In the Catholic Church, interpretation of literal truths (Divine Revelation) is guided by the wisdom of the promised Holy Spirit and not dictated by personal human preferences. (chapter 14, Gospel of John)

Practically speaking, this means figuring out what some figurative language is teaching. The Catholic Church has done this since Pentecost. A good example are the writings of St. Paul and others in the New Testament.

It is true that many Catholic doctrines flow from the first three chapters of Genesis. Not every verse, figurative or literal, automatically becomes a declared doctrine. The Catholic Church has a strict protocol for defining, explaining and preserving Divine Revelation.
Thank you grannymh. I do not wish to hold any opinion against doctrine.
What I thought is that the literal interpretation of the human fall in the Genesis is not illogical.
We know so little about the animals. They are declared as biological machines driven by instincts, yet we couldn’t decipher at least the language of the dogs, how they communicate to one another. Also, after the fall, man, animals, the whole nature have changed in a way we can’t understand. Science will never be able to distinguish between a glass with water and a glass with holy water.
Generally speaking, I am more inclined towards the literal interpretation of the Bible where describes events such: Noah’s Flood or Joshua and the walls of Jericho. Even the story of Balaam and his donkey.
 
Thank you grannymh. I do not wish to hold any opinion against doctrine.
What I thought is that the literal interpretation of the human fall in the Genesis is not illogical.
We know so little about the animals. They are declared as biological machines driven by instincts, yet we couldn’t decipher at least the language of the dogs, how they communicate to one another. Also, after the fall, man, animals, the whole nature have changed in a way we can’t understand. Science will never be able to distinguish between a glass with water and a glass with holy water.
Generally speaking, I am more inclined towards the literal interpretation of the Bible where describes events such: Noah’s Flood or Joshua and the walls of Jericho. Even the story of Balaam and his donkey.
When we look for knowledge about animals, we refer to the doctrine that God is the Creator of all that is seen and unseen.

As for the nature of animals, we know that they are material creatures in our material/physical environment. God entrusted animals to the “stewardship” of human beings. Thus, it is legitimate to use animals for food, clothing, work, and leisure activities. *(*Genesis 1: 28-31; Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, “Respect for the integrity of creation” paragraphs 2415-2418).

Scientific knowledge about the nature of these wonderful animals is not transformed into Catholic doctrines. For example: some animals are highly sentient which is part of their material/physical makeup.

Genesis 3: 17-19, tells us that the harmony with creation is broken because Adam “ate from the tree of which I had forbidden you to eat.” (CCC, 400) Being a good author, the writer of those first three chapters of Genesis concentrated on the important information about God as Creator and Adam as creature. Recall that this writer was not a scientist. He was the instrument that God used to give His Divine truths not only to the early Hebrew society, but also to all humankind to come.

This comment from your post 10 is a fact which needs to be emphasized.
“Science will never be able to distinguish between a glass with water and a glass with holy water.”

Our present society uses God’s gift of natural science as a means to learn about our animal neighbors. The author of those first three chapters, true to his vocation, presented the details regarding humanity’s broken relationship with Divinity, but he left out the details of what happened to the animals. On our part, we first learn the Catholic doctrines that have some kind of foundation in Genesis, 1, 2 and 3, and then we try to better understand what happened to the animals.

This is the key. As long as we do not tamper with the doctrines related to God as Creator and the Original Sin of the first human, we are in relatively safe territory because we are dealing with non-human creatures. Of course, we are naturally concerned about animals. And we can legitimately offer explanations about them.

I am not sure if I were clear enough. What I am trying to say is that once a person is grounded in the appropriate Catholic doctrines, then he/she is better equipped to explore all kinds of scenarios for the material animal kingdom, including the amazing talking snake in the Garden. What the author of chapter 3 faced is the huge difficulty of portraying a spiritual event in a material way that could be understood by human readers. Even though we know the meaning and the effects of Original Sin because the wisdom of the Holy Spirit guides the Catholic Church in matters of faith and morals, we still have the right to check out what kind of serpent tempted Adam. Chapter 1 does list creeping things and later lists all the living creatures that crawl on the ground.

We can think about Adam and Eve having a favorite dog; but we cannot conclude that Original Sin is some kind of fairy tale. We can easily surmise that the serpent frightened Eve and that Adam was a wimp; but we cannot ignore the doctrine that Adam freely chose to let his trust in God die in his heart so that he freely chose the act of disobedience. (Genesis 2: 15-17; CCC, 397-398)

I know there are tons of questions and answers about the author’s intentions regarding the serpent in the Garden. I have struggled with some of these. I will share, provided that the above is understandable. Please ask.

Links to the Catechism
scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catechism/catechism-of-the-catholic-church/
 
The devil did not try to share in our humanity by tempting Eve. What he truly and deeply wanted was for Eve to share his devilry. After all, misery loves company.

Whether Eve finally ended up in Satan’s lap it would be interesting to know. :eek:
 
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