The Ten Commandments

[charlvares]

One of the things really worrying me is why is there so much difference in the Ten Commandments as given to Moses in Exodus and Deuteronomy as compared to what we are taught today in the Catechisms. Where did the 2nd Commandment disappear … "Thou shalt not make unto any graven image or any likeness … that is in heaven above or that is in the earth beneath… not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them… "

These were God-given commandments to Moses, so how did we justify splitting God’s 10th into separate ones, i.e. into our present 9th and 10th to make up for the missing 2nd? When did this drastic change take place and who was responsible?

Catholics please check your 10 Commandments in Exodus, and let me have an answer!

 

[Church_Militant]

One of the things really worrying me is why is there so much difference in the Ten Commandments as given to Moses in Exodus and Deuteronomy as compared to what we are taught today in the Catechisms.

No, there’s not. The fact is that there are different versions in the Bible itself and even in Judaism.

Here’s some links to information that may help you out.
The Division of the Ten Commandments

Explanation of the Ten Commandments

Commandments of God

Where did the 2nd Commandment disappear … "Thou shalt not make unto any graven image or any likeness … that is in heaven above or that is in the earth beneath… not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them… "

The 2nd commandment never was the one that you mention. For 2,000 years, the Church has taught those commandments as they were handed down to them by the Bible and the early church. What you speak of is actually part of the 1st commandment.

I wrote an article for my blog on this iconoclastic argument.
Iconoclasm: Or: Catholics Worship Graven Images NOT

These were God-given commandments to Moses, so how did we justify splitting God’s 10th into separate ones, i.e. into our present 9th and 10th to make up for the missing 2nd? When did this drastic change take place and who was responsible?

Here you seem to have a problem with handling anti-Catholic attack propaganda like this. Chick around…that argument has only been around for the last 500 years or so and the Church has always had the same answer.

The fact here is that the Catholic faith is not based upon the modern new wind of doctrines of men of Sola Scriptura the early church wasn’t either. Don’t fall for that. It’s deceptive and in error.

Catholics please check your 10 Commandments in Exodus, and let me have an answer!

I did…and that is one reason that I am Catholic.

 

[Joe_5859]

Church Militant is right, it’s part of the first Commandment and always has been.

Part 3 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) discusses morality and Section 2 of Part 3 uses the 10 Commandments as the framework with which to discuss morality. As one would expect, under the First Commandment, there is a section specifically on the “graven image” clause:

IV. "YOU SHALL NOT MAKE FOR YOURSELF A GRAVEN IMAGE . . ."

2129 The divine injunction included the prohibition of every representation of God by the hand of man. Deuteronomy explains: "Since you saw no form on the day that the Lord spoke to you at Horeb out of the midst of the fire, beware lest you act corruptly by making a graven image for yourselves, in the form of any figure. . . . " [66] It is the absolutely transcendent God who revealed himself to Israel. “He is the all,” but at the same time “he is greater than all his works.” [67] He is “the author of beauty.” [68]

2130 Nevertheless, already in the Old Testament, God ordained or permitted the making of images that pointed symbolically toward salvation by the incarnate Word: so it was with the bronze serpent, the ark of the covenant, and the cherubim. [69]

2131 Basing itself on the mystery of the incarnate Word, the seventh ecumenical council at Nicaea (787) justified against the iconoclasts the veneration of icons - of Christ, but also of the Mother of God, the angels, and all the saints. By becoming incarnate, the Son of God introduced a new “economy” of images.

2132 The Christian veneration of images is not contrary to the first commandment which proscribes idols. Indeed, “the honor rendered to an image passes to its prototype,” and “whoever venerates an image venerates the person portrayed in it.” [70] The honor paid to sacred images is a “respectful veneration,” not the adoration due to God alone:

Religious worship is not directed to images in themselves, considered as mere things, but under their distinctive aspect as images leading us on to God incarnate. The movement toward the image does not terminate in it as image, but tends toward that whose image it is. [71]

[66] Deut 4:15-16.
[67] Sir 43:27-28.
[68] Wis 13:3.
[69] Cf. Num 21:4-9; Wis 16:5-14; Jn 3:14-15; Ex 25:10-22; 1 Kings 6:23-28; 7:23-26.
[70] St. Basil, De Spiritu Sancto 18,45G 32,149C; Council of Nicaea II: DS 601; cf. Council of Trent: DS 1821-1825; Vatican Council II: SC 126; LG 67.
[71] St. Thomas Aquinas, STh II-II,81,3 ad 3.

So it hasn’t gone anywhere. It always has been part of Catholic teaching. It’s just not the Second Commandment.

The better question would be, why did Protestants split the first Commandment into two and combine the 9th and 10th into one?

 

[ricko]

Sounds like you been spending too much time around your anti-Catholic friends. You statement is a common ploy to incite people to believe that the Catholic Church has done away with some of the Ten Commandments! Things like this may work with some Catholics who never really learned the “nuts and bolts” of Catholicisn such as yourself. Fear not brother as you have come to the right place. Search and ask any question you will and you will come again to believe that the Church IS Truth. God Bless.

 

[Prayer_Warrior]

No need to be concerned. You have been misinformed. The Catholic Church does teach all the commandments, in great detail. See this page of the online catechism which makes no attempt to hide the “graven images” part of the commandment. Note that the catechism uses 42 bullets to explain the commandment in its entirety, including four bullets ( 2129-2132) which specifically discuss the context of graven images and what is forbidden about them. One might be surprised to learn that it is not graven images that God objects to— if He did, He would not have expressly asked for graven images in the most Holy place in Isreal. He has made it clear He approves of graven images— as long as they are not worshipped. God asked for graven images in the Temple, on the Ark of the Covenant, and He asked Moses to make a graven image (the bronze serpent) to heal the Isrealites who were being bitten by snakes. Unsurprisingly, it is when the people started to worship the staff, years later, that it had to be destroyed (2 Kings 18:4)

At any rate, the bottom line is that this commandment can be summed up in one short sentence “you shalt not have any other gods before you”. That would include idols, quite naturally. Here is a link that has more information on the subject.

 

[quasimodo]

If you look, there are not 10 commandments; there are more like 14. They have to be divided up some how if we want to have 10, and the original text is not very helpful in slicing that pie.

 

[cmom]

Hebrew texts were written without vowels or any punctuation, so the divisions were done by translators, not by the writers.
Soimaginetryingtodividethisintodifferentcompletesentences.

 

[VociMike]

The Catholic division is perfectly sensible, since having no false Gods obviously includes not making idols and worshiping them.

Now, is it your understanding that the Catholic Church does, or does not, condone the making and worshiping of idols? That is the key question, isn’t it?

What I find odd is the Protestant division that includes coveting another’s property and another’s spouse as a single commandment, when they are clearly very different matters, involving very different sins. Need I point out that there is no God-ordained sacrament uniting a man to his property.

 

[Joe_5859]

Hebrew texts were written without vowels or any punctuation, so the divisions were done by translators, not by the writers.
Soimaginetryingtodividethisintodifferentcompletesentences.

Still more if you remove the vowels:

Smgntryngtdvdthsntdffrntcmpltsntncs

 

[Joe_5859]

The Catholic division is perfectly sensible, since having no false Gods obviously includes not making idols and worshiping them.

Now, is it your understanding that the Catholic Church does, or does not, condone the making and worshiping of idols? That is the key question, isn’t it?

What I find odd is the Protestant division that includes coveting another’s property and another’s spouse as a single commandment, when they are clearly very different matters, involving very different sins. Need I point out that there is no God-ordained sacrament uniting a man to his property.

Great point. Imagine me trying to tell my wife that she’s lumped into the same category as the living room furniture and my ipod.

 

[Lizziebel]

What I find odd is the Protestant division that includes coveting another’s property and another’s spouse as a single commandment, when they are clearly very different matters, involving very different sins. Need I point out that there is no God-ordained sacrament uniting a man to his property.

I’ve never before heard of this sort of lumping together those two commandments into one. It’s not a Protestant thing, though maybe it could be particular to a denomination? Or the person you came across discussing those two commandments did sort of group them that way in a sense (though they are listed separately in the 10 commandments) simply because they are both about not coveting? Though, of course, there’s a significant reason they’re separated.

 

[VociMike]

I’ve never before heard of this sort of lumping together those two commandments into one. It’s not a Protestant thing, though maybe it could be particular to a denomination? Or the person you came across discussing those two commandments did sort of group them that way in a sense (though they are listed separately in the 10 commandments) simply because they are both about not coveting? Though, of course, there’s a significant reason they’re separated.

Do a search on “tenth commandment” and you’ll find that most Protestants lump coveting a spouse and coveting property into that commandment.

 

[Lizziebel]

Hmm, there was a link that said some Lutheran churches do this, but nothing really about anyone else. Again, it’s not an overall Protestant thing, but that’s not to say that some don’t do it.

Interesting. Now I’m curious about the list of 10 commandments if it’s done that way.

 

[VociMike]

Hmm, there was a link that said some Lutheran churches do this, but nothing really about anyone else. Again, it’s not an overall Protestant thing, but that’s not to say that some don’t do it.

Interesting. Now I’m curious about the list of 10 commandments if it’s done that way.

No, the Lutherans (universally? I don’t know) use the same ordering as the Catholics. But the vast majority of other Protestants use a different ordering - this ordering:

godstenlaws.com/ten-commandments/index.html

 

[LilyM]

I have to second some of these ideas.

It’s completely obvious that coveting someone’s wife is indeed a very different sin to coveting their property, and that worshipping a graven image would indeed come under the umbrella of ‘having another god before me’. And that you could easily split the commandments a number of different ways, really.

 

[LilyM]

Still more if you remove the vowels:

Smgntryngtdvdthsntdffrntcmpltsntncs

Showoff

 

[gcnuss]

No, the Lutherans (universally? I don’t know) use the same ordering as the Catholics.

Lutherans learn the commandments from Luther’s Small Catechism which uses the same ordering as the Catholic Church. As far as I know this is universal among Lutherans.

 

[VociMike]

Lutherans learn the commandments from Luther’s Small Catechism which uses the same ordering as the Catholic Church. As far as I know this is universal among Lutherans.

Thanks for the info. It really does seem like a more sensible ordering.

I’m guessing that Lutherans don’t get the same nonsense as Catholics do, about deliberately removing the “idols” commandment so as not to interfere with their idol-worship.

 

[gcnuss]

I’m guessing that Lutherans don’t get the same nonsense as Catholics do, about deliberately removing the “idols” commandment so as not to interfere with their idol-worship.

Yes, we seem to be immune to such criticism since we keep our idols hidden.

Catholics are easy targets because you have the statues of the Blessed Virgin and St. Joseph, not to mention that piece of “bread,” right there for everyone to see. It’s sad that some people actually believe that Catholics engage in idol-worship.

 

[VociMike]

Yes, we seem to be immune to such criticism since we keep our idols hidden.

Indeed, there is something to be said for discretion.

Catholics are easy targets because you have the statues of the Blessed Virgin and St. Joseph, not to mention that piece of “bread,” right there for everyone to see. It’s sad that some people actually believe that Catholics engage in idol-worship.

But it’s also encouraging that some non-Catholic Christians understand better.