The Term Dormition

[Little_Boy_Lost]

I heard on a past podcast from Father Tom Hopko about the dormition, that in official documents following the second vatican council, the western church has used the term “Dormition” vs. “Assumption”. Is this true? Or is he mistaken?

Thanks!

 

[ibo]

I heard on a past podcast from Father Tom Hopko about the dormition, that in official documents following the second vatican council, the western church has used the term “Dormition” vs. “Assumption”. Is this true? Or is he mistaken?

Thanks!

Yes, it is true, as far as I know and both names are beautiful.

 

[Joe_5859]

“Dormition” is used more often in the Eastern Churches while “Assumption” is generally used in the West.

Look at the Catechsim paragraph 966.

They use both terms, but “Dormition” appears only in the quote from the Byzantine (Eastern) liturgy.

 

[Aramis]

I heard on a past podcast from Father Tom Hopko about the dormition, that in official documents following the second vatican council, the western church has used the term “Dormition” vs. “Assumption”. Is this true? Or is he mistaken?

Thanks!

Dormition: the falling asleep of Mary…

Yes, it’s the normative term in the east. The Assumption is actually 3 days later in many Eastern traditions.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

I think these refer to two different things.

Assumption is a dogma of the Catholic Church and refers to the assumption of her body into Heaven.

I think that Dormition refers to her departure from this life. There is no dogma in the Catholic Church as to whether or not she died. Dormition can refer to either death, or a falling asleep; so sidesteps the issue of how she left. [Note that this is my understanding of the term. I have no official statement to support it.]

 

[Hesychios]

I think these refer to two different things.

Assumption is a dogma of the Catholic Church and refers to the assumption of her body into Heaven.

I think that Dormition refers to her departure from this life. There is no dogma in the Catholic Church as to whether or not she died. Dormition can refer to either death, or a falling asleep; so sidesteps the issue of how she left. [Note that this is my understanding of the term. I have no official statement to support it.]

You are basically correct.

Some people think that these are two names for the same thing but obviously they are not.

The difference seems to reflect a theological shift. The earlier term, Dormition refers to the death and resurrection of Saint Mary, as among the First Fruits of the general resurrection.

The assumption is actually a part of the resurrection. By focusing on the ‘part’ that is the assumption and abandoning or ignoring the death and general resurrection theology of the original legend, the focus is changed from something we all will one day (hopefully) share in or experience to a unique event for one person alone.

 

[dvdjs]

You are basically correct.

By focusing on the ‘part’ that is the assumption and abandoning or ignoring the death and general resurrection theology of the original legend, the focus is changed from something we all will one day (hopefully) share in or experience to a unique event for one person alone.

I hope that many can make it to vigil for the feast. You will fin that the liturgical texts of the dormition very clearly call attention to the singularity of the event for the unique Mother of God. The assumption rather clearly is not the general resurrection. As to ignoring the death: Christ’s death is significant. The significance of the death of the Theookos? Not so clear.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

You are basically correct.

Some people think that these are two names for the same thing but obviously they are not.

The difference seems to reflect a theological shift. The earlier term, Dormition refers to the death and resurrection of Saint Mary, as among the First Fruits of the general resurrection.

The assumption is actually a part of the resurrection. By focusing on the ‘part’ that is the assumption and abandoning or ignoring the death and general resurrection theology of the original legend, the focus is changed from something we all will one day (hopefully) share in or experience to a unique event for one person alone.

Thanks - Joe K.

 

[Alexander_Roman]

I find it difficult to understand, as an aside, how the Catholic West feels the need NOT to define that our Lady died.

It probably follows from the Immaculate Conception dogma and the “stain of Original Sin” that the dogma prevents our Lady from contracting.

Sounds like a lot of mental gymnastics.

In the East, Original Sin is seen as an inheritance of the weakened human nature of Adam (which could also be called a ‘stain’). The result of that is most certainly death.

While the East sees our Lady as having inherited THAT understanding of Original Sin (and therefore death with it), it has always affirmed that she never had any stain of sin whatever on her soul, but was sanctified completely at her Conception and dynamically throughout her life. Thus, she felt no pain at giving birth to Christ and her death was a sweet falling asleep or Dormition. After which she was taken body and soul to heaven.

She appeared later to the Apostles at dinner and told them to call on her “Most Holy Mother of God, help us!” And she would always hear them (and us) and come to our assistance.

To this day, Eastern monasteries hold an empty chair for her at their tables where there is an icon of the Trinity and of her.

This gave rise to the Eastern practice of having icons of the Trinity and of Our Lady in kitchens and dining rooms of the laity as well (including icons the “Unburnt Bush” to prevent fires and of St Euphrosynos the Cook).

Alex

 

[Vico]

I find it difficult to understand, as an aside, how the Catholic West feels the need NOT to define that our Lady died.

It probably follows from the Immaculate Conception dogma and the “stain of Original Sin” that the dogma prevents our Lady from contracting.

Sounds like a lot of mental gymnastics.

In the East, Original Sin is seen as an inheritance of the weakened human nature of Adam (which could also be called a ‘stain’). The result of that is most certainly death.

While the East sees our Lady as having inherited THAT understanding of Original Sin (and therefore death with it), it has always affirmed that she never had any stain of sin whatever on her soul, but was sanctified completely at her Conception and dynamically throughout her life. Thus, she felt no pain at giving birth to Christ and her death was a sweet falling asleep or Dormition. After which she was taken body and soul to heaven.

She appeared later to the Apostles at dinner and told them to call on her “Most Holy Mother of God, help us!” And she would always hear them (and us) and come to our assistance.

To this day, Eastern monasteries hold an empty chair for her at their tables where there is an icon of the Trinity and of her.

This gave rise to the Eastern practice of having icons of the Trinity and of Our Lady in kitchens and dining rooms of the laity as well (including icons the “Unburnt Bush” to prevent fires and of St Euphrosynos the Cook).

Alex

Regarding death of the Theotokos:

"It did not seem possible to establish a solid historical tradition favoring either Mary’s death or her immortality. Evidence from Scripture does not exist, and the Fathers have little to say about this theme. Gregory of Nyssa and Epiphanius are both inconclusive. Timothy of Jerusalem (ca. fifth-eighth centuries), on the other hand, was explicit: “…the virgin is immortal…he who dwelt in her transported her to the regions of her assumption.” (PG 86, 245C) "

“As it stands now, both opinions are acceptable and accepted: Mary’s death, resurrection and glorification as well as glorification at the end of her life without death. However, the majority of theologians seem to admit Mary’s death.”

campus.udayton.edu/mary/questions/faq/faq24.html

 

[Joe_Kelley]

One thing puzzles me. While there is come disagreement on which is her tomb, all seem to agree that the apostles put her in a tomb. I would think they must have thought her dead to do that.

 

[Alexander_Roman]

Dear Mr. Kelley,

I would like you to consider becoming the next Pope - your common sense is a beacon of light!

Not enough Irish popes, I say . . .

Alex

 

[DeAquin]

I find it difficult to understand, as an aside, how the Catholic West feels the need NOT to define that our Lady died.

It probably follows from the Immaculate Conception dogma and the “stain of Original Sin” that the dogma prevents our Lady from contracting.

Sounds like a lot of mental gymnastics.

In the East, Original Sin is seen as an inheritance of the weakened human nature of Adam (which could also be called a ‘stain’). The result of that is most certainly death.

While the East sees our Lady as having inherited THAT understanding of Original Sin (and therefore death with it), it has always affirmed that she never had any stain of sin whatever on her soul, but was sanctified completely at her Conception and dynamically throughout her life. Thus, she felt no pain at giving birth to Christ and her death was a sweet falling asleep or Dormition. After which she was taken body and soul to heaven.

She appeared later to the Apostles at dinner and told them to call on her “Most Holy Mother of God, help us!” And she would always hear them (and us) and come to our assistance.

To this day, Eastern monasteries hold an empty chair for her at their tables where there is an icon of the Trinity and of her.

This gave rise to the Eastern practice of having icons of the Trinity and of Our Lady in kitchens and dining rooms of the laity as well (including icons the “Unburnt Bush” to prevent fires and of St Euphrosynos the Cook).

Alex

Just thought I’d point out that the idea of the Dormiton does exist in the West as well, even as far as back as the counter reformation. I was in a Spanish Art Gallery this year where they had a 16th century woodcarving called ‘The Dormiton’ and depicting said event, I believe there were a few other paintings on the subject from the same period or earlier in other art galleries I visited.

 

[Little_Boy_Lost]

It would make sense. Dormir is a latin derative for sleep. And so in English you would have “The Falling asleep of the Theotokos.” I think assumption is a very English term.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

Dear Mr. Kelley,

I would like you to consider becoming the next Pope - your common sense is a beacon of light!

Not enough Irish popes, I say . . .

Alex

 

[Alexander_Roman]

Just thought I’d point out that the idea of the Dormiton does exist in the West as well, even as far as back as the counter reformation. I was in a Spanish Art Gallery this year where they had a 16th century woodcarving called ‘The Dormiton’ and depicting said event, I believe there were a few other paintings on the subject from the same period or earlier in other art galleries I visited.

Yes, a beautiful piece!

My favourite pastime is to roam the streets of Barcelona and pray before the many wall-shrines they have there (and in Rome and Florence, as well as Nice)!



Alex

 

[CatholicFireman]

I first became aware of the term Dormition when Fr Mitch Pacwa explained it during the mystery of the Assumption in the Holy Land Rosary DVD. He was in the Church of the Dormition.

 

[Vico]

Some believe that the Blessed Virgin Mary did not die but was dormant, because being ever pure, it was not necessary for her to transition like normal mortals.

 

[Swiss_Guy]

It seems to me that the West is split between whether the Mother of God died and then was assumed into heaven, or if there was just an assumption and no death. the East believes that the MoG did die and then was assumed. Why can’t we agree with one thing? It seems that there is more evidence for her death, and that Tradition sides with the Dormition + Assumption instead of the Assumption - Dormition.

 

[Vico]

It seems to me that the West is split between whether the Mother of God died and then was assumed into heaven, or if there was just an assumption and no death. the East believes that the MoG did die and then was assumed. Why can’t we agree with one thing? It seems that there is more evidence for her death, and that Tradition sides with the Dormition + Assumption instead of the Assumption - Dormition.

Although revelation is complete, we do not comprehend it all.