The Term Dormition

[mardukm]

Dear brother Alex,

I don’t think it’s mental gymnastics. I think it is just (perhaps) invincible ignorance of what the dogma of the IC actually teaches. Many think that the dogma means that Mary was perserved from ALL consequences of the Original Sin – spiritual AND physical. BUT, since the 17th century, the doctrine of the IC in the West was authoritatively affirmed by Pope Alexander VII (IIRC) to apply only to Mary’s spiritual state, not her physical state. But many Latins probably don’t realize this about the dogma of the IC (and perhaps many non-Latins who criticize the dogma on theological merits also are unaware of this).

Blessings,
Marduk

I find it difficult to understand, as an aside, how the Catholic West feels the need NOT to define that our Lady died.

It probably follows from the Immaculate Conception dogma and the “stain of Original Sin” that the dogma prevents our Lady from contracting.

Sounds like a lot of mental gymnastics.

In the East, Original Sin is seen as an inheritance of the weakened human nature of Adam (which could also be called a ‘stain’). The result of that is most certainly death.

While the East sees our Lady as having inherited THAT understanding of Original Sin (and therefore death with it), it has always affirmed that she never had any stain of sin whatever on her soul, but was sanctified completely at her Conception and dynamically throughout her life. Thus, she felt no pain at giving birth to Christ and her death was a sweet falling asleep or Dormition. After which she was taken body and soul to heaven.

She appeared later to the Apostles at dinner and told them to call on her “Most Holy Mother of God, help us!” And she would always hear them (and us) and come to our assistance.

To this day, Eastern monasteries hold an empty chair for her at their tables where there is an icon of the Trinity and of her.

This gave rise to the Eastern practice of having icons of the Trinity and of Our Lady in kitchens and dining rooms of the laity as well (including icons the “Unburnt Bush” to prevent fires and of St Euphrosynos the Cook).

Alex

 

[mardukm]

Dear brother dvdjs,

I hope that many can make it to vigil for the feast. You will fin that the liturgical texts of the dormition very clearly call attention to the singularity of the event for the unique Mother of God. The assumption rather clearly is not the general resurrection. As to ignoring the death: Christ’s death is significant. The significance of the death of the Theookos? Not so clear.

I agree with you that our brother Michael has drawn a red herring for a conclusion. I do have my own misgivings about the belief that Mary did not die, but I approach the issue from another perspective.

I’ve talked to a lot of Latins on this issue, and I’ve come across two points of view regarding the belief that Mary did not die:

(1) Mary did not experience physical death or corruption because the dogma of the IC states she was preserved from all stain of Original Sin.
(2) Mary did not experience physical death or corruption as a reward for her sinless life.

As an Oriental who believes in the fact of Mary’s dormition (i.e., death), I can accept #2 as a legitimate theologoumenon. However, I believe #1 may be skirting the boundaries of heterodoxy — and even heresy. And here’s why.

As far as possible heterodoxy is concerned:
(a) the dogma of the IC does not actually teach that Mary was preserved from physical death or corruption. Since the 17th century, Pope Alexander VII authoritatively settled the question for the Latin Church – the doctrine of the IC ONLY refers to Mary’s spiritual state, not her physical state.
(b) the Apostolic Consitution on the IC states that Mary did not in fact receive ALL graces at her IC, but rather states that she “increased her Original Gift.”
So the idea that the IC was the cause of Mary’s immortality/incorruptibility cannot in fact be supported by the dogma itself.

As far as possible heresy is concerned:
To claim that the IC gave Mary immortality/incorruptibility means that before she bore Christ, she no longer had a truly human nature. This undermines the very basis of our Christological Faith.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[fred_conty]

Hi,
In The Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Ott, P. 210, “In the East, at least since the sixth century, and at Rome, at any rate, since the end of the seventh century (Sergius I, 687-701) the church celebrated the Feast of the Sleeping of Mary.”

He goes on to say the the object of this was the death of Mary but because of the
incorruptibility of her body and the thought of her going to heaven, it was changed to
the assumption. And in the liturgy and patristic texts of the eighth and ninth centuries,
the bodily assumption is attested.

He also gives a reference to St. Thomas, Expos. salut, ang) she was preserved from
her return to dust.

He gives her death as belonging to the field of free opinion but is the general teaching
of theologans.

 

[Alexander_Roman]

Dear brother Alex,

I don’t think it’s mental gymnastics. I think it is just (perhaps) invincible ignorance of what the dogma of the IC actually teaches. Many think that the dogma means that Mary was perserved from ALL consequences of the Original Sin – spiritual AND physical. BUT, since the 17th century, the doctrine of the IC in the West was authoritatively affirmed by Pope Alexander VII (IIRC) to apply only to Mary’s spiritual state, not her physical state. But many Latins probably don’t realize this about the dogma of the IC (and perhaps many non-Latins who criticize the dogma on theological merits also are unaware of this).

Blessings,
Marduk

Excellent presentation, as always, Brother Marduk!

I agree totally.

Alex

 

[Alexander_Roman]

Hi,
In The Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Ott, P. 210, “In the East, at least since the sixth century, and at Rome, at any rate, since the end of the seventh century (Sergius I, 687-701) the church celebrated the Feast of the Sleeping of Mary.”

He goes on to say the the object of this was the death of Mary but because of the
incorruptibility of her body and the thought of her going to heaven, it was changed to
the assumption. And in the liturgy and patristic texts of the eighth and ninth centuries,
the bodily assumption is attested.

He also gives a reference to St. Thomas, Expos. salut, ang) she was preserved from
her return to dust.

He gives her death as belonging to the field of free opinion but is the general teaching
of theologans.

In the East, this cannot be left to the field of free opinion since our liturgical prayers mention her as having died.

Very good quotation sir!

Alex

 

[Alexander_Roman]

Dear brother dvdjs,

I agree with you that our brother Michael has drawn a red herring for a conclusion. I do have my own misgivings about the belief that Mary did not die, but I approach the issue from another perspective.

I’ve talked to a lot of Latins on this issue, and I’ve come across two points of view regarding the belief that Mary did not die:

(1) Mary did not experience physical death or corruption because the dogma of the IC states she was preserved from all stain of Original Sin.
(2) Mary did not experience physical death or corruption as a reward for her sinless life.

As an Oriental who believes in the fact of Mary’s dormition (i.e., death), I can accept #2 as a legitimate theologoumenon. However, I believe #1 may be skirting the boundaries of heterodoxy — and even heresy. And here’s why.

As far as possible heterodoxy is concerned:
(a) the dogma of the IC does not actually teach that Mary was preserved from physical death or corruption. Since the 17th century, Pope Alexander VII authoritatively settled the question for the Latin Church – the doctrine of the IC ONLY refers to Mary’s spiritual state, not her physical state.
(b) the Apostolic Consitution on the IC states that Mary did not in fact receive ALL graces at her IC, but rather states that she “increased her Original Gift.”
So the idea that the IC was the cause of Mary’s immortality/incorruptibility cannot in fact be supported by the dogma itself.

As far as possible heresy is concerned:
To claim that the IC gave Mary immortality/incorruptibility means that before she bore Christ, she no longer had a truly human nature. This undermines the very basis of our Christological Faith.

Blessings,
Marduk

This is really marvelous sir! This means there is perfect unity between East and West on the score of the . . . Immaculate Conception.

The Kyivan Academy in the 17th and 18th centuries praised Mary’s Immaculate Conception very highly and constantly - and it was Orthodox!

I guess they shared your scholarly assessment!

Alex

 

[Diak]

The tradition of the burial shroud of the Mother of God being processed and placed in a decorated “tomb” either on the Dormition or three days after is very ancient, having arisen in Jerusalem. Our UGCC Studite Lavra in Univ has a huge pilgrimate and procession with the Plaschantysa of the Mother of God to a special “tomb” where it is venerated throughout the post-festive period of the Dormition. One would think that a tradition of a burial shroud and tomb would be reflective of - burial and a tomb. We will do this at our mission this Saturday following Vespers (Julian Calendar).

 

[Alexander_Roman]

The tradition of the burial shroud of the Mother of God being processed and placed in a decorated “tomb” either on the Dormition or three days after is very ancient, having arisen in Jerusalem. Our UGCC Studite Lavra in Univ has a huge pilgrimate and procession with the Plaschantysa of the Mother of God to a special “tomb” where it is venerated throughout the post-festive period of the Dormition. One would think that a tradition of a burial shroud and tomb would be reflective of - burial and a tomb. We will do this at our mission this Saturday following Vespers (Julian Calendar).

I wish I could be there sir!

Alex

 

[Diak]

I wish I could be there sir!

Alex

I wish I could be in Univ this weekend as well! Especially with Kyr +Venidykt now being a bishop and Kyr +Josyp having been consecrated not too long ago. I just noticed the schedule and see they are having the procession with the Plaschytysia of the Mother of God after Vespers:
27 серпня 2011 р. Б., субота
16:00 - Зустріч пішої прощі.
Молебень до Пресвятої Богородиці.
18:00 - Мала Вечірня.
21:30 - Велика Вечірня з Литією.
Під час литійних стихир відбудеться хресний хід з плащаницею Успення Пресвятої Богородиці.

28 серпня 2011 р. Б., неділя
00:00 - Єрусалимська Утреня.
03:30 - Похід зі свічками на Чернечу гору, де буде відслужено Панахиду за всіх усопших отців та братів Унівської Лаври.
04:30 - Часи.
05:00 - Божественна Літургія.
06:30 - Водосвяття і освячення зілля. Молитви за недужих.
07:30 - Акафіст до Пресвятої Богородиці, що в Унівській іконі прославилась.
10:00 - Архиєрейська Божественна Літургія.
17:00 - Вечірня.
Wow - Matins at midnight, molebens and an Akafyst before the wonderworking Univ icon of the Mother of God. Wonderful.

Do they still have the veneration of the plaschanytsya of the Mother of God at Woodstock?

 

[Road2Damascus]

I’ve always thought the “Dormition” pictures, Icons are very beautiful, 2.bp.blogspot.com/_adq7m_m52Qg/SKOEQu-qDpI/AAAAAAAAAzc/PKTv54lnI0M/s400/Dormition-LG.jpg and seems to call to mind, as in Spanish, “dormir”, related to the word “dormant” but as said here, I always pictured “Deep Sleep.” It is interesting following the conversation here, to speak of Resurrection. Assumption seems very much of a word like Ascension though the two have different meanings, Mary was Assumed into Heaven if I say that correctly and that sounds like a 3rd party, GOD, made that possible,* Jesus Ascended into Heaven* which rightfully seems to say GOD Himself does it in the first person. So it is not only mental gymnastics but does seem to come down to how it is said grammatically.

I would say this is how Roman Catholics conventionally see the Assumption depicted. Rev. 12:1 btw domestic-church.com/CONTENT.DCC/19980701.GRAPHICS/assumption.jpg which calls to mind, how the Ascension has been painted in history and is clearly described in the Bible: theopedia.com/images/thumb/3/36/JesusAscension.jpg/265px-JesusAscension.jpg

And this one is excellent, combining “Dormition” and “Assumption” 4.bp.blogspot.com/_i3zPwPATMSY/TG7w_YpawRI/AAAAAAAABDg/kU6Si426x94/s1600/assumption.jpg

This modern depiction seems to combine “Dormition” and “Assumption” together. liturgicalyear.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/assumption-of-mary-with-lillies.jpg

TransistusMariae interfaith.org/christianity/apocrypha-transitus-maria/

I read this book of Apocrypha, it says when She was passing away, people were healed at the time and other things I don’t readily remember. interfaith.org/christianity/apocrypha-transitus-maria/

And I beheld also that many signs came to pass, the blind seeing, the deaf hearing, the lame walking, lepers cleansed, and those possessed by unclean spirits cured; and every one who was under disease and sickness, touching the outside of the wall of the house where she was lying, cried out: Holy Mary, who didst bring forth Christ our God, have mercy upon us. And they were straightway cured. And great multitudes out of every country living in Jerusalem for the sake of prayer, having heard of the signs that had come to pass in Bethlehem

However, speaking of Bethlehem and Jerusalem in this Apocrypha, I thought historically, they always thought Mary had moved to somewhere outside of present-day Israel when She went on to Her dormition. One rarely finds commentary on something like this though so I’m not sure if this Book says She passed away from earthly life in Jerusalem. I get tripped up on even how to say this. allaboutreligion.org/death-of-virgin-mary-faq.htm Ephesus suggested as well. This I believe I have heard too.

 

[Diak]

From the early Church onward, especially in the East, the bodily death of Mary was accounted in multiple Syriac, Ge’ez and other apocryphal accounts of the “Repose of Mary”. The Jerusalem liturgical practice (mirrored by several Orthodox churches and amongst the Melkites and UGCC) is to have the “Jerusalem Matins” or the matins of burial of the Mother of God styled after the Jerusalem Matins of Great and Holy Saturday.

“O what a wonder! The Source of Life is placed in a tomb;* the grave becomes a ladder to heaven.* Rejoice, Gethsemane,* holy chamber of the Mother of God!* As for us, O faithful,* let us cry out with Gabriel, the prince of angels:* Rejoice, O woman full of grace,* the Lord is with you,* the Lord, Who because of you, ** bestows great mercy upon the world.” (from the Stikhera of Great Vespers of the Vigil of the Dormition)

"The holy apostles were taken up from every corner of the world * and carried upon the clouds by the command of God. They gathered around your pure body, O Source of Life, * and kissed it with reverence. As for the most sublime powers of heaven, * they came with their own leader to escort and to pay their last respects * to the most honorable body that had contained Life itself.* Filled with awe, they marched together with the apostles in silent majesty,* professing to the princes of heaven in a hushed voice: Lift up your gates and receive, with becoming majesty * the Mother of the Light that never fades, because, through her, salvation was made possible * for our human race.* She is the one upon whom no one may gaze, * and to whom no one is able to render sufficient glory; for the special honor that made her sublime * is beyond understanding. Therefore, O Most Pure Mother of God, forever alive with your Son, the Source of Life,* do not cease to intercede with Him* that He may guard and save Your people from every trouble;* for you are our intercessor. To you we sing a hymn of glory with loud and joyful voices: ** now and forever! (Dogmatikon from Great Vespers of the Dormition)

 

[manualman]

Does this not seem strange to anybody else? You have your Westerners who in this case are saying “The testimony of Tradition is inconclusive, therefore we will make no definitive statement on whether or not she died before being assumed.”

Then you have your easterners who are arguing “Hey Mary was human, humans die before being resurrected. It’s simple logic to figure out what happened here. She died and then was raised/assumed.”

Doesn’t this seem a little backwards to anybody? Aren’t the Latins the ones supposedly famous for letting reason and logic run past what is directly supported in Tradition? Aren’t the Easterns the ones who take pride in carefully avoiding the pretense of knowing more than has actually been revealed to us? Is this a Bizarro world theological phenomenon??

 

[Diak]

The plaschanystya we use in our mission during the Dormition and post-feast:

 

[Vico]

Does this not seem strange to anybody else? You have your Westerners who in this case are saying “The testimony of Tradition is inconclusive, therefore we will make no definitive statement on whether or not she died before being assumed.”

Then you have your easterners who are arguing “Hey Mary was human, humans die before being resurrected. It’s simple logic to figure out what happened here. She died and then was raised/assumed.”

Doesn’t this seem a little backwards to anybody? Aren’t the Latins the ones supposedly famous for letting reason and logic run past what is directly supported in Tradition? Aren’t the Easterns the ones who take pride in carefully avoiding the pretense of knowing more than has actually been revealed to us? Is this a Bizarro world theological phenomenon??

No, the east follows tradition and scripture and theologian means one who lives the faith. The west tends to speculate in addition, such as with the scholastics. Since there is more than one traditon, there are conflicts.

 

[channal1]

Some believe that the Blessed Virgin Mary did not die but was dormant, because being ever pure, it was not necessary for her to transition like normal mortals. Cheap Coach PursesCoach outlet storesCoach Factory Outlet store

 

[Alexander_Roman]

I’ve always found it fascinating how some traditionalist RC’s have disagreed with the East on points that are, in Eastern eyes, grounded in Scholasticism - yet when Vatican II came around as did the liturgical changes, they now make “follow Tradition” their mantra . . .

Alex

 

[ThatOneGuy92]

I’ve always found it fascinating how some traditionalist RC’s have disagreed with the East on points that are, in Eastern eyes, grounded in Scholasticism - yet when Vatican II came around as did the liturgical changes, they now make “follow Tradition” their mantra . . .

Alex

I’m not sure I quite follow you, Alex. Have pity on me and please explain; I just discussed St. Anselm’s “Ontological Argument for the Existence of God” in Philosophy, and so my brain is pretty much mus right now

 

[Alexander_Roman]

I’m not sure I quite follow you, Alex. Have pity on me and please explain; I just discussed St. Anselm’s “Ontological Argument for the Existence of God” in Philosophy, and so my brain is pretty much mus right now

I was trying to be cute . . . When traditionalist RC’s go after the Eastern Orthodox for refusing the “development of doctrine” re: the Filioque etc., they blame the East for being locked in Tradition.

But when their own Tridentine tradition is under attack and revision by Vatican II and the liturgical changes, they revert back to the defence of tradition (meaning, for them, from the 13th century onwards).

That’s just my assessment, I’m sure lots will disagree!

I visited the tomb of St Anselm in Canterbury one year . . .

Alex

 

[ThatOneGuy92]

I was trying to be cute . . . When traditionalist RC’s go after the Eastern Orthodox for refusing the “development of doctrine” re: the Filioque etc., they blame the East for being locked in Tradition.

But when their own Tridentine tradition is under attack and revision by Vatican II and the liturgical changes, they revert back to the defence of tradition (meaning, for them, from the 13th century onwards).

That’s just my assessment, I’m sure lots will disagree!

I visited the tomb of St Anselm in Canterbury one year . . .

Alex

Ah. The classic case of double standards. Gotcha.

And you visited the tomb of St. Anselm? Good grief! I feel all left out now, having not gone on a pilgrimage anywhere (and, of course, the only good Lutheran pilgrimage is to Wittenberg- particularly the bars! ).

Furiously looks up pilgrimage site that will not arouse suspicion of nice Lutheran church ladies that give ThatOneGuy92 potluck leftovers…

 

[Swiss_Guy]

No, the east follows tradition and scripture and theologian means one who lives the faith. The west tends to speculate in addition, such as with the scholastics. Since there is more than one traditon, there are conflicts.

How can Tradition conflict when it is faithfully preserved through the apostle’s successors by the Holy Spirit? (CCC 81)

"And [Holy] Tradition transmits in its entirety the Word of God which has been entrusted to the apostles by Christ the Lord and the Holy Spirit. It transmits it to the successors of the apostles so that, enlightened by the Spirit of truth, they may faithfully preserve, expound and spread it abroad by their preaching

It just doesn’t make sense to me why there can be different traditions.