The Theory of Limbo

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It is all speculation. No one knows what happens when we die.
 
thistle said:
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ChunkMonk:
Limbo is Hell, albeit the highest level and with none of the suffering.
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Limbo is NOT Hell.
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Please watch the video I posted up in post number 5. According to the teachings of St. Thomas Aquinas, in his Summa Theologia, Limbo is part of “hell” but is not “Hell”

The issue is that in English, we use the same word “hell” for two places that have district names in Greek and Latin.

The two places: are Gehenna = Hell
and Sheol = hell
  • Gehenna is part of Sheol, but all of Sheol is not Gehenna.
If I write the above sentence using the English names we get:
  • Hell is part of hell, but all of hell is not Hell.
Anyway… what the video. It’s from the New Saint Thomas Institute, and based on the teachings of St. Thomas Aquinas.

HOWEVER, please note that NONE OF THIS IS DOGMA. But the word “Limbo” comes from “Limbus” which refers to the outer edge of the underworld.
 
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The Second Council of Lyons: “The souls of those who die in mortal sin or with original sin only, however, immediately descend to hell, yet to be punished with different punishments.”

Pope Innocent III: “The punishment of original sin is the deprivation of the vision of God, but the punishment of actual sin is the torments of everlasting hell”

The Council of Florence: “But the souls of those who depart this life in actual mortal sin, or in original sin alone, go down straightaway to hell to be punished, but with unequal pains.”

The limbo or fringe of Hell is the part of Hell where the souls suffer the least, having only the punishment of deprivation, because their only sin is dying in original sin alone. The Church has never specifically and definitively said that infants go there. It may be that adults who die without having obtained the state of grace, so as to be freed from original sin (by some form of baptism), are the ones who are sent there.

There is also the limbo of the fathers, where those who died in a state of grace, before Christ died for our salvation, went to await the opening of the gates of heaven.
 
thistle said:
That is not a Church document nor a Church teaching.

Show us all a Church document teaching/stating Limbo for Infants is in Hell.
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@thistle
  1. Limbo for Infants is not part of “Hell,” it’s part of “hell.” There are two totally different terms and places.
  2. No one can give you a Church document because Limbo is not Church teaching. It is a THEORY.
However, the theory of Limbo for Infants is that it was the out edge of “hell,” not “Hell.” Just like Abraham’s Bosom was in hell but not Hell.

That’s what Limbo means. Did you watch the video I posted or no?

It was recorded by Dr. Taylor Marshall, former professor at University of Dallas, former dean at the College of Saints John Fisher & Thomas More, fellow at the St. Paul Center for Bible Theology, and founder and President of the New Saint Thomas Institute.

If you want to disagree with Dr. Taylor Marshall - fine. But at least make sure you properly understand what we are all telling you. His video does a great job of that.

Because again: because “hell” and “Hell” are not the same terms.

God Bless
 
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phil19034 said:
Just like Abraham’s Bosom was in hell but not Hell.
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Actually, it would be more accurately described as ‘Hades’ or ‘Sheol’, the “abode of the dead”, and not “hell”, the “abode of the condemned.” Moreover, it wasn’t a final destination (like heaven and hell are).

I get the distinction you’re making (as is expressed in the video you cite), but there’s nothing in magisterial teaching that holds that there’s one big cone-shaped ‘hell’, part of which is ‘Hell’. It would be just as reasonable to say that Christ went to the underworld (which, in antiquity, was called ‘hell’, but didn’t have the implication of ‘place of eternal punishment’, as it does today.).
 
Gorgias said:
Actually, it would be more accurately described as ‘Hades’ or ‘Sheol’, the “abode of the dead”, and not “hell”, the “abode of the condemned.” Moreover, it wasn’t a final destination (like heaven and hell are).
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Correct, however, I was trying to make the distinction between “Hell” and “hell” because in English some times people get confused when we discuss this. Esp with the Eastern Orthodox who will say “some people don’t got to hell forever.”

This statement would be true if Purgatory is part of Sheol, which a lot of English speakers call “hell” (lowercase h). This gets confusing because in English we often call Gehenna “Hell” (upper case H).
Gorgias said:
I get the distinction you’re making (as is expressed in the video you cite), but there’s nothing in magisterial teaching that holds that there’s one big cone-shaped ‘hell’, part of which is ‘Hell’. It would be just as reasonable to say that Christ went to the underworld (which, in antiquity, was called ‘hell’, but didn’t have the implication of ‘place of eternal punishment’, as it does today.).
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Correct. However, this is about the theory of Limbo, which is not a magisterial teaching. Limbo literally means “edge of hell” or Sheol. So again, the subtle distinctions I’m make are good to understand when speaking with the some English speaking Orthodox, who (again) say some people go to hell for a while and then eventually to go Heaven (which is what we call purgatory, even if they deny it)

God Bless
 
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thistle said:
Show us all a Church document teaching/stating Limbo for Infants is in Hell.
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The Council of Florence defined: “But the souls of those who depart this life in actual mortal sin, or in original sin alone, go down straightaway to hell to be punished, but with unequal pains.”
https://www.ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/FLORENCE.HTM

Therefore, an infant who dies in original sin must necessarily go to Hell. The “unequal pains” is where “Limbo” comes in. The commonly accepted position is that there is only the lack of beatific vision, with no actual pain of sense for those that die in original sin only–this would be what we call Limbo. Some of the Fathers said such souls would also experience a pain of sense, but less than one with actual sins. The Council chose not to settle this debate, but only say the punishments are not equal.

Note, the above would only apply to those infants that actually die in original sin. We acknowledge that God can provide His grace in extraordinary ways where baptism is lacking so that they instead die in the state of grace and are saved.
 
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The hypothesis of Limbo was based upon the doctrine of the absolute necessity of Baptism.

Persons who die without Baptism remain with original sin at least. And original sin prevents a soul from being able to receive the Beatific Vision.

Of course, Baptism may be by water, desire, or blood (martyrdom.) The theory is that infants who die without water baptism are not capable of baptism of desire or of consent to martyrdom. So they cannot enter into the Beatific Visiion.

The Church pretty much discarded the theory of Limbo. But as to the question of what happens to infants who die without Baptism, it has replaced that theory with “we don’t know. We’ll just leave it up to God.” A fine answer but not necessarily better than the prior one.

Limbo has been said to be a place of perfect natural happiness, but without the Beatific Vision. I would call that a part of heaven rather than of hell. You can’t tell whether someone has the Beatific Vision by looking at them. So if persons with and without the Beatific Vision are commingled, you can’t tell them apart. Some have perfect natural happiness, but the ones “in heaven” have the Beatific Vision.
 
Genesis315 said:
Show us all a Church document teaching/stating Limbo for Infants is in Hell.
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The Church disagrees with you. It does NOT teach that unbaptised infants who die go to Hell. The Church does not know what happens to them.

CCC 1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: “Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,” allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.
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phil19034 said:
Correct, however, I was trying to make the distinction between “Hell” and “hell” because in English some times people get confused when we discuss this. Esp with the Eastern Orthodox who will say “some people don’t got to hell forever.”

This statement would be true if Purgatory is part of Sheol, which a lot of English speakers call “hell” (lowercase h). This gets confusing because in English we often call Gehenna “Hell” (upper case H).
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I agree. Attempting to make a distinction between “little-h hell” and “big-h Hell” is bound to confuse folks. “Gehenna” / “Hell” vs “Sheol” / “Hades” helps make the distinction better. (And, not conflating “hell” with either purgatory or “Abraham’s Bosom” is even better yet!)
phil19034 said:
when speaking with the some English speaking Orthodox, who (again) say some people go to hell for a while and then eventually to go Heaven (which is what we call purgatory, even if they deny it)
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My understanding is that their claim is that hell is Hell (i.e., ‘Gehenna’), but it’s not permanent. That is, they are punished, but God relents. That’s not what purgatory is. Conflating the two is a bad idea, theologically speaking. 🤷‍♂️
 
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It is an explicit tenant of the faith in the Apostles Creed that Christ died and descended into Hell.

“Hell” is separation from God. Christ went down to free the righteous of the Old Covenants, who were superated by virtue of not having a Messiah.
 
runningdude said:
It is an explicit tenant of the faith in the Apostles Creed that Christ died and descended into Hell.

“Hell” is separation from God. Christ went down to free the righteous of the Old Covenants, who were superated by virtue of not having a Messiah.
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Nobody has been or ever will be released from Hell.
 
runningdude said:
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thistle:
Nobody has been or ever will be released from Hell
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Then how did Christ descend into Hell, but is now sitting at the right hand of the Father?
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Christ descended into Hell to battle the devil. Then, on His way to Heaven, He stopped by “Limbo of the Fathers” to bring Abraham, Adam, Eve, St Joseph, St John the Baptist and all the other saved people who died before the Gates of Heaven were opened.
 
Gorgias said:
My understanding is that their claim is that hell is Hell (i.e., ‘Gehenna’), but it’s not permanent. That is, they are punished, but God relents . That’s not what purgatory is. Conflating the two is a bad idea, theologically speaking
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Yeah, but this is where I would disagree with them. I would argue that the people who are “not permanently in hell” are in the same place we call Purgatory.

And I would argue that’s why St Thomas’ view makes sense because it wraps up Eastern Theology nicely by making Purgatory part of Sheol or Hades (“hell,” underworld, realm of the dead, etc) but seperate from Gehenna (“Hell”, place of eternal punishment)

God Bless
 
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