The things that you’re liable to read in the Bible…

[wisdomseeker]

I guess North Carolina follows the national trend with Baptists being the largest Protestant denomination and Methodists following up second. After that, it’s anybody’s guess.

I think it’s extremely unfortunate that high–profile Protestant preachers seen on the television are spreading a message that’s different from the one Jesus taught in the Sermon on the Mount because the result seems to be that many Protestant Christians are being influenced toward supposing rewards in this life are the automatic result of being a Christian and so they’re surprised when that doesn’t prove to be the case.

Since I came to live in the United States I’ve lived only in the South but my impression is that the American worldview (if I can generalize like that) that’s gradually developing here is following the same pattern as the one that is more fully developed across the Atlantic. England is now largely agnostic, which amounts to it being a land of functional atheism. Islam continues to grow there, of course.

That seems to be the way things are heading in this country. The Protestant churches are apparently emptying rapidly and I would suppose that most of them are getting into debt and having to curtail some of their ministry activities. Well aware that the battle is for the minds of the youth but clueless as to how to fight, Protestant clergy have been coaxed into allowing the music generated by the culture to be introduced into their churches. That means it’s just a matter of time. The churchgoers are copying the world. All young people easily see that this is what’s happening and it’s therefore inevitable that most of them will eventually reject the copycat and head for the real thing (rock music free from archaic religious rules together with the attendant tempting offer of sex and drugs). The only people left will be aging uncomprehending Protestants who have a vague notion that apologetics means saying sorry to “seekers” for all the legalism in church.

I daresay that by the year 2050, the Protestant churches in this country will be as empty as those in England. I think the Catholic Church in this country will fare better than any of the Protestant denominations in that it will still maintain a presence albeit a smaller one. However, I think the Eastern Orthodox church will actually gain ground. I don’t think Islam will do so well Stateside because it’s so radically in antithesis to the American Way.

Here endeth the opinion.

Peace,
Mick

I agree very much with you.

the CC emphasize much on the Sermon of the Mount.

i wish you could watch the Catholic channel. i guess you could use the internet EWTN.com

Today, it seems like people are very hungry for the mysticism within christianity. which has been destroyed by the so called reformation.

I have to tell you that has been a dificult battle for the CC against heretical teachings. i am not calling you a heretic. dont get me wrong.
the Church has had the same teachings for 1500. then, the so called reformers comes and began preaching that the CC is all wrong. can you imagine the confusion that is causing to the people.

i think we can agree that Jesus never intended for His teachings to cause such a confusion. there is why is so important for us to seek the Truth.

It is written:" the Church is the Pillar and Bullwark of the Truth."
and Jesus says to the Apostles “whoever hears you hears me and the One who sent Me.” this is very important for one to meditate on it. is Jesus talking to all of us or is He saying this to only a group of people chosen by Him? can any one truly understand the Word Written without the Church?

this is a great website. if you are not doing anything perhaps you can go through it.

this website is good. if you are not doing anything maybe you can read it through it.
thecatholictreasurechest.com/index.htm

peace onto you.

Psalms 127:1 the prefigurement,
"Unless the Lord builds the house, those who build it labor in vain. Unless the Lord watches over the city, the watchman stays awake in vain."

 

[SSTeacher]

I agree very much with you.

Thanks. I’m encouraged.

the CC emphasize much on the Sermon of the Mount.

As should all Christians.

i wish you could watch the Catholic channel. i guess you could use the internet EWTN.com

I think that will work. I went to the EWTN website and watched for a while. Thanks for the tip.

Today, it seems like people are very hungry for the mysticism within christianity.

I agree.

which has been destroyed by the so called reformation.

Well, perhaps the Reformation played a part.

I have to tell you that has been a dificult battle for the CC against heretical teachings. i am not calling you a heretic. dont get me wrong.

The word heretic simply means somebody who chooses his or her own belief rather than that of his or her church. Since I’m currently an Evangelical Protestant and there is no such thing as the “Protestant Church” I have no choice but to take up my Bible, read it, and then choose my own belief. I’m quite happy to be called a heretic. If the cap fits, wear it.

the Church has had the same teachings for 1500.

Well, with respect, I’m not sure if that’s quite correct. As the Church developed, so did its doctrines. Hence the Early Church did not embrace the doctrines that were developed later such as Indulgences, Purgatory, The Immaculate Conception, and The Assumption.

then, the so called reformers comes and began preaching that the CC is all wrong.

That isn’t my understanding. Like the Catholic Church, the Protestant Movement has developed its doctrines. I doubt that any reasonable Protestant would declare the Catholic Church to be all wrong.

can you imagine the confusion that is causing to the people.

Sure I can. But in the Sermon on the Mount Jesus commanded His followers to seek and they would find. Perhaps the remedy is to put in some study time, some thinking time and especially some prayer time?

i think we can agree that Jesus never intended for His teachings to cause such a confusion. there is why is so important for us to seek the Truth.

Yes, we can certainly agree on that.

It is written:" the Church is the Pillar and Bullwark of the Truth."
and Jesus says to the Apostles “whoever hears you hears me and the One who sent Me.” this is very important for one to meditate on it. is Jesus talking to all of us or is He saying this to only a group of people chosen by Him?

I think He’s talking to all of us.

can any one truly understand the Word Written without the Church?

Well, that’s what the Reformers seemed to think and many Protestants still hold to that same idea.

this website is good. if you are not doing anything maybe you can read it through it.
thecatholictreasurechest.com/index.htm

Thanks. I’ll check it out

peace onto you.

Peace to you, too
Mick

 

[dzheremi]

This is interesting, the idea that people are looking for mysticism within Christianity without finding it. On this board and elsewhere, the Catholic Church has been accused of being lacking in this regard. I don’t find that to be the case, but I could see how others might. As one outside (for now) and one within the Church, what do each of you think can be done about this, if this is a motivating factor causing people to leave the Church?

For my part, the mysticism, if you could call it that, that I found within the Protestant church I was raised in seemed mostly ridiculous to me, even as a young child. I remember once being told that if my legs “fell asleep” during the sermon due to being forced to sit still for so long, that pins and needles feeling was actually Satan, trying to distract me from paying attention to the message of the sermon…this was the pastor who told me this! Oooo…Satan makes little kids restless during church by poking them in their legs! What a master of spiritual warfare he must be.

(Disclaimer: I do actually take Satan and his ability to influence us very seriously…but this sort of poor man’s Benny Hinn, quasi-televangelist “devil, BEGONE!” sort of business is just nuts, to me)

 

[wisdomseeker]

**Thanks. I’m encouraged.

sure.**

As should all Christians.

yes, but how can they do that?

I think that will work. I went to the EWTN website and watched for a while. Thanks for the tip.

there is some good info there. thank you for being so receptive. rarely i find someone to want to hear anything from the CC.

I agree.

Well, perhaps the Reformation played a part.

yes.

The word heretic simply means somebody who chooses his or her own belief rather than that of his or her church. Since I’m currently an Evangelical Protestant and there is no such thing as the “Protestant Church” I have no choice but to take up my Bible, read it, and then choose my own belief. I’m quite happy to be called a heretic. If the cap fits, wear it.

i in no way would call you a heretic. at least not yet. haha…
i will not argue with you about the Church. you must come to understand what a Church is on your own. if i told you, you wouldnt believe me. I am in no way against anyone reading the Bible but using the Bible to build congregations based on their own understanding of the Word is probably not a good idea.

Well, with respect, I’m not sure if that’s quite correct. As the Church developed, so did its doctrines. Hence the Early Church did not embrace the doctrines that were developed later such as Indulgences, Purgatory, The Immaculate Conception, and The Assumption.

yes and no. it takes much understanding about the Church for one to know that these were not created or invented by the Church.

That isn’t my understanding. Like the Catholic Church, the Protestant Movement has developed its doctrines. I doubt that any reasonable Protestant would declare the Catholic Church to be all wrong.

Let’s see. some say that the CC uses the Mass to sacrify Jesus over and over again. some say we worship a piece of bread. some say it is umbiblical to call a man father. some say we worship statues. some say the CC is man made religion. some say the pope is an invention of the Church. some say we worship the holy Mother of God. i could go on and on…some say that we follow the tradition of man…

Sure I can. But in the Sermon on the Mount Jesus commanded His followers to seek and they would find. Perhaps the remedy is to put in some study time, some thinking time and especially some prayer time?

no comment. i will let you seek understanding of what Jesus really meant.

Yes, we can certainly agree on that.

I think He’s talking to all of us.

if Jesus is talking to all of us, so who is left to hear us.

Well, that’s what the Reformers seemed to think and many Protestants still hold to that same idea.

for now no comment here.

Thanks. I’ll check it out

sure.

Peace to you, too
Mick

:bowdown: :byzsoc:

 

[look3467]

The things that you’re liable to read in the Bible…are not necessarily for everybody’s eyes to see!

Case in point: Mar 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:

Even His own apostles were in doubt about the works of Jesus, ref:Mat 19:11 But he said unto them, All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given.

There are child like believers who need the guidance of the church/churches to be lead and directed in the things of God.

For others, the bible is opened in understanding because of their maturity in the faith.

Don’t feel like the bible is complicated, it’s just that God grants us understanding based on our interest and desires to know more about Him.

Where ever you feel the closest to God in and one in which you can serve Him and your fellow human being, is all that He desires.

The rest of it is all useful or harmful depending on the motive in one’s heart.

Who ever seeks God will not be disappointed!

Peace>>>AJ

 

[SSTeacher]

The things that you’re liable to read in the Bible…are not necessarily for everybody’s eyes to see!

Case in point: Mar 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:

Even His own apostles were in doubt about the works of Jesus, ref:Mat 19:11 But he said unto them, All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given.

There are child like believers who need the guidance of the church/churches to be lead and directed in the things of God.

For others, the bible is opened in understanding because of their maturity in the faith.

Don’t feel like the bible is complicated, it’s just that God grants us understanding based on our interest and desires to know more about Him.

Where ever you feel the closest to God in and one in which you can serve Him and your fellow human being, is all that He desires.

The rest of it is all useful or harmful depending on the motive in one’s heart.

Who ever seeks God will not be disappointed!

Peace>>>AJ

Hi AJ,

Peace to you, too. I note that you favor selective quoting. That’s also one my favorite pastimes.

But I seem to have missed your point. What are you getting at, exactly?

Curiously,
Mick

 

[SSTeacher]

This is interesting, the idea that people are looking for mysticism within Christianity without finding it. On this board and elsewhere, the Catholic Church has been accused of being lacking in this regard. I don’t find that to be the case, but I could see how others might. As one outside (for now) and one within the Church, what do each of you think can be done about this, if this is a motivating factor causing people to leave the Church?

For my part, the mysticism, if you could call it that, that I found within the Protestant church I was raised in seemed mostly ridiculous to me, even as a young child. I remember once being told that if my legs “fell asleep” during the sermon due to being forced to sit still for so long, that pins and needles feeling was actually Satan, trying to distract me from paying attention to the message of the sermon…this was the pastor who told me this! Oooo…Satan makes little kids restless during church by poking them in their legs! What a master of spiritual warfare he must be.

(Disclaimer: I do actually take Satan and his ability to influence us very seriously…but this sort of poor man’s Benny Hinn, quasi-televangelist “devil, BEGONE!” sort of business is just nuts, to me)

Hey dzheremi,

I guess I’d have to first try to define what mysticism actually is – or, at least, what I mean when I use the word. When I think about the word, different images flit across my mind and all of them are difficult to put into words. I don’t think I’ve ever actually experienced mysticism so I probably don’t know what I’m talking about. But, having said that, I would suppose mysticism is to do with being made in God’s image – so it’s something with a spiritual aspect about it i.e. it’s unworldly. It’s perhaps the process of coming into union with God in a way that is above reason and separate from emotion. It’s sometimes asserted that human beings are above the other animals because we have reason and animals have only instinct. Therefore we can reason our way toward what God is like but animals can’t even begin to do that. But mysticism is perhaps even beyond reason because it involves God drawing people to Himself in His own way.

It seems to me that the area in which this is most likely to occur is in worship. I guess that’s why the Divine Liturgy of the Orthodox Church is something to which I’m drawn. Whereas Catholics attend Mass, Orthodox Christians experience the Divine Liturgy. If you’ve ever had this experience, you’ll understand what I’m struggling to say.

So, I suppose that what occurs to me who is outside Catholicism and looking in, is that the Mass ought to be more like the Divine Liturgy, which I think can correctly be described as mystical, and less like the sort of marketplace drivel that Protestant churches often seem to favor on Sunday mornings, which isn’t anywhere near mystical. I’ve gotten hold of a book titled, The Canons and Decrees of the Council of Trent and under the Decree Concerning The Things To Be Observed And Avoided In The Celebration Of Mass, I came across this sentence:

“They shall also banish from the churches all such music which, whether by the organ or in the singing, contains things that are lascivious or impure, likewise all worldly conduct, vain and profane conversations, wandering around, noise and clamor, so that the House of God may be seen to be and may be truly called a house of prayer.”

I wonder if this sort of injunction still applies? If so, perhaps it’s herein that the problem and the remedy might both be found – if, in fact, Catholics are leaving the Catholic Church because they can find no mysticism.

Cordially,
Mick

 

[look3467]

Hi AJ,

Peace to you, too. I note that you favor selective quoting. That’s also one my favorite pastimes.

But I seem to have missed your point. What are you getting at, exactly?

Curiously,
Mick

The point is that hard things in the bible to understand are selectively revealed by the Holy Spirit to those it deems ready to receive understanding.

As for selective quoting, the object is to place the pieces of the great and wonderful puzzle to see the big picture.

God has hidden behind many metaphors, numbers, words and phrases things which only by His revelations can we understand them.

The desire to seek the depths of His wisdom and love are ever so rewarded by His gentle revelations, never disappointing.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[Rbt_Southwell]

The point is that hard things in the bible to understand are selectively revealed by the Holy Spirit to those it deems ready to receive understanding.

As for selective quoting, the object is to place the pieces of the great and wonderful puzzle to see the big picture.

God has hidden behind many metaphors, numbers, words and phrases things which only by His revelations can we understand them.

The desire to seek the depths of His wisdom and love are ever so rewarded by His gentle revelations, never disappointing.

Peace>>>AJ

I was talking to Gabriel last night, AJ, and he said that you are gravely mistaken on your claim of private revelation. In fact, His Word (that is, our Lord Jesus) has opened Scripture (that is, the Hebrew Scriptures) to all nations’ understanding through the ORAL teaching to Our Lord’s apostles.

Or didn’t you get the memo???

Robert

 

[bookgirl32]

Not all Protestants adhere to sola scriptura. Anglicans and Methodists have always read Scripture through the lenses of reason, tradition, and experience.

Whose reason, whose tradition, and whose experience? (Whose or who’s, I can never remember).

 

[bookgirl32]

For example many people make the claim that there are many paths to salvation. Is that what Jesus meant when He said, “No man cometh to the Father, but by me?” Of course many things are much harder to understand, but it’s all about finding out what God meant.

I apologize b/c I haven’t read the entire thread. I don’t think that statement is all that easy to understand. Yes, salvation is through Him, but HOW? This is the whole problem with private interpretation, the how. Methodists and Lutherans will have their own idea of HOW salvation is through Jesus, Evangelicals another, Catholics yet another, who is right? That’s SSTeacher’s point.

 

[bookgirl32]

So my point is that I’m fed up with being my own pope. That’s why I’ve joined this forum – to check out Catholicism.

Ha, love this quote. Your reasoning, in my private interpretation , led you to exactly the right place. Hope you stay!

 

[bookgirl32]

Sure they do. And about 2000 other groups. It is rare for any group not to have unity of administration(Christian Science shreds anyone in this area) and as far as unity of doctrine…I think we could look to other groups that more unified than Catholicism which has a range from highly liberal to traditionalists.

Please correct yourself and claim that Catholicism has a range of PEOPLE that are highly liberal to traditionalist. And some of those liberals are in complete disagreement with the Church, as are some of the traditionalist. Their disagreement holds NO sway over the doctrine or authority of the Church and the Magisterium. The Church is the Church, regardless of what some of it’s members believe.

 

[bookgirl32]

Obviously, if I get the same kind of treatment that I got 15 years ago the matter will settle itself.

Cheerfully,
Mick

Please don’t let that get in your way, though I understand how it could. Priests aren’t always necessarily nice people, just like anyone isn’t necessarily a nice person. I can guarantee you the Church didn’t approve of him acting like that.

 

[look3467]

I was talking to Gabriel last night, AJ, and he said that you are gravely mistaken on your claim of private revelation. In fact, His Word (that is, our Lord Jesus) has opened Scripture (that is, the Hebrew Scriptures) to all nations’ understanding through the ORAL teaching to Our Lord’s apostles.

Or didn’t you get the memo???

Robert

I did not get anything of the sort, but I do and have been given understanding of certain things which have helped and aided my understanding in the things concerning the works of God.

If Gabriel wants to call it private interpretations, I don’t have a problem with that.

The bible I found out has every thing we need to know, the problem is that it i hidden to many, as only the Lord can cause us to gain understanding via His Holy Spirit.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[Rbt_Southwell]

AJ,

Here is the fundamental perceptual handicap on your part.

The “bible” (from a word meaning “the books”) was canonized by Pope Damasus I in 382. It was to give the growing Church (the CATHOLIC, or UNIVERSAL Church of Christ) its liturgical roadmap. Remember those spurious “gospels” and “epistles”?

The Bible, AJ, was never intended, or mentioned by an early Church Father, or stated by Jesus Himself, to be a secret book full of hidden metaphors and riddles for the chosen few initiates like you claim for yourself.

It is your choice (as thousands before you) to think that God speaks only to you. This my friend is delusional and indicates a shallow understanding of God;s teaching through His Son and His Church.

You’re setting yourself up as a Prophet on par with Mohammed and Joseph Smith and Jim Jones. You need to wake up and try a little humbleness.

Robert

 

[bookgirl32]

Hey dzheremi,

I guess I’d have to first try to define what mysticism actually is – or, at least, what I mean when I use the word. When I think about the word, different images flit across my mind and all of them are difficult to put into words. I don’t think I’ve ever actually experienced mysticism so I probably don’t know what I’m talking about. But, having said that, I would suppose mysticism is to do with being made in God’s image – so it’s something with a spiritual aspect about it i.e. it’s unworldly. It’s perhaps the process of coming into union with God in a way that is above reason and separate from emotion. It’s sometimes asserted that human beings are above the other animals because we have reason and animals have only instinct. Therefore we can reason our way toward what God is like but animals can’t even begin to do that. But mysticism is perhaps even beyond reason because it involves God drawing people to Himself in His own way.

It seems to me that the area in which this is most likely to occur is in worship. I guess that’s why the Divine Liturgy of the Orthodox Church is something to which I’m drawn. Whereas Catholics attend Mass, Orthodox Christians experience the Divine Liturgy. If you’ve ever had this experience, you’ll understand what I’m struggling to say.

So, I suppose that what occurs to me who is outside Catholicism and looking in, is that the Mass ought to be more like the Divine Liturgy, which I think can correctly be described as mystical, and less like the sort of marketplace drivel that Protestant churches often seem to favor on Sunday mornings, which isn’t anywhere near mystical. I’ve gotten hold of a book titled, The Canons and Decrees of the Council of Trent and under the Decree Concerning The Things To Be Observed And Avoided In The Celebration Of Mass, I came across this sentence:

“They shall also banish from the churches all such music which, whether by the organ or in the singing, contains things that are lascivious or impure, likewise all worldly conduct, vain and profane conversations, wandering around, noise and clamor, so that the House of God may be seen to be and may be truly called a house of prayer.”

I wonder if this sort of injunction still applies? If so, perhaps it’s herein that the problem and the remedy might both be found – if, in fact, Catholics are leaving the Catholic Church because they can find no mysticism.

Cordially,
Mick

I do, respectfully, see one problem in your reasoning justifying your preference of the Divine Liturgy over the Mass. It seems to make you FEEL more. I’m not trying to put words in your mouth, so please correct me if I’m wrong!! If there is an objective truth that God revealed, if Jesus established ONE visible Church to teach and defend it, then it seems that what you FEEL when you’re there does not make it the right or wrong Church. It either is or it isn’t. Maybe I’m reading you wrong? I apologize if I am. Some masses have drumsets and electric guitars (not in my diocese, but I’ve been to others), I don’t like this AT ALL. But, my dislike of it – it can even make me FEEL like I didn’t really go to Mass – doesn’t make it not Mass.

I have a GREAT book suggestion for you: The Lamb’s Supper, by Scott Hahn. You’re speaking of the Divine Liturgy being an experience vs the Mass being “something to attend”, and Hahn explains how the Mass really is the Kingdom of God on earth. It’s the one place and time on Earth and in our earthly lives that we actually experience Heaven on Earth, so to speak. He draws a lot from Revelation. At the very least it’s extremely interesting!

 

[SSTeacher]

The point is that hard things in the bible to understand are selectively revealed by the Holy Spirit to those it deems ready to receive understanding.

I think referring to the Holy Spirit as “it,” is disrespectful when we have at our disposal the tool of anthropomorphism. But, that aside, from where did you get this information? And how do you know that you’ve placed the correct interpretation upon it?

As for selective quoting, the object is to place the pieces of the great and wonderful puzzle to see the big picture.

Great response! It sounds as if you’ve actually addressed my concern whereas you haven’t really said anything! Good job!

God has hidden behind many metaphors, numbers, words and phrases things which only by His revelations can we understand them.

It seems to me that this idea contains traces of bibliolatry. From where did you get this notion?

The desire to seek the depths of His wisdom and love are ever so rewarded by His gentle revelations, never disappointing.
Peace>>>AJ

That’s a pleasantly worded and respectful concluding thought.

Thanks for your contribution, AJ.

Grace and peace,
Mick

 

[SSTeacher]

Ha, love this quote. Your reasoning, in my private interpretation , led you to exactly the right place. Hope you stay!

Thanks, bookgirl. I’ve already been engaged and helped along by some very gracious forum members and I do intend to stay.

Cordially,
Mick

 

[SSTeacher]

Please don’t let that get in your way, though I understand how it could. Priests aren’t always necessarily nice people, just like anyone isn’t necessarily a nice person. I can guarantee you the Church didn’t approve of him acting like that.

bookgirl,

Yes, you’re quite right, of course. I shouldn’t let one negative experience cloud my judgment. I’ll try to be more circumspect. Thanks for your wise advice.

Gratefully,
Mick