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dmar198
Guest
I think reform was a better option than abolition in this case, because the Inquisition was a good idea, if it had been implemented correctly, and we shouldn’t throw out the baby with the bathwater.
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Path_Finder
Guest
In 1478, the Spanish Inquisition was established with the papal approval of Pope Sixtus IV.
I am simply noting the facts
and wonder about repentance and restitution
You don’t think that unrepented sin is an issue?
On 1 November 1478, Sixtus published the papal bull Exigit Sincerae Devotionis Affectus, through which the Spanish Inquisition was established in the Kingdom of Castile. Sixtus consented under political pressure from Ferdinand of Aragon, who threatened to withhold military support from his kingdom of Sicily.[citation needed] Nevertheless, Sixtus IV quarrelled over protocol and prerogatives of jurisdiction, was unhappy with the excesses of the Inquisition and condemned the most flagrant abuses in 1482.[16]
It looks rather political and a time of war. We withhold troops you need if you don’t sign this. There were the wars back then of ? I’m unsure, Papal States? Something like that. St. Francis fought in one of those armies. Italy was a bunch of different states and they fought each other.As a temporal prince who constructed stout fortresses in the Papal States, he encouraged the Venetians to attack Ferrara, which he wished to obtain for another nephew. Ercole I d’Este, Duke of Ferrara, was allied with the Sforzas of Milan, the Medicis of Florence along with the King of Naples, normally a hereditary ally and champion of the papacy.
It’s a bit of duress at that.
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idolatry
Guest
Are you suggesting that the pope made morally corrupt decision under duress?It looks rather political and a time of war. We withhold troops you need if you don’t sign this. There were the wars back then of ? I’m unsure, Papal States? Something like that. St. Francis fought in one of those armies. Italy was a bunch of different states and they fought each other.
It’s a bit of duress at that.
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Path_Finder
Guest
No. The article indicates he was under pressure.Are you suggesting that the pope made morally corrupt decision under duress?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Sixtus_IV#DeathOn 1 November 1478, Sixtus published the papal bull Exigit Sincerae Devotionis Affectus, through which the Spanish Inquisition was established in the Kingdom of Castile. Sixtus consented under political pressure from Ferdinand of Aragon, who threatened to withhold military support from his kingdom of Sicily.[citation needed] Nevertheless, Sixtus IV quarrelled over protocol and prerogatives of jurisdiction, was unhappy with the excesses of the Inquisition and condemned the most flagrant abuses in 1482.[16]
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Path_Finder
Guest
Duress:
Pope Sixtus IV had no idea the inquisition would be excessive I would guess.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DuressIn jurisprudence, duress or coercion refers to a situation whereby a person performs an act as a result of violence, threat or other pressure against the person.
Pope Sixtus IV had no idea the inquisition would be excessive I would guess.
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idolatry
Guest
Are you saying that the pope sinned, but that it was acceptable as he was scared?
I
idolatry
Guest
Do you think that God would agree with torture and murder being a good idea?I think reform was a better option than abolition in this case, because the Inquisition was a good idea, if it had been implemented correctly, and we shouldn’t throw out the baby with the bathwater.
I find it difficult to believe that people I share a pew with are so callous
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Paleocon
Guest
No it didn’t.The Spanish Inquisition murdered Jews and stole their money
No I’m not of the opinion that mostly imagined ills from 500 years ago, committed by people who aren’t alive anymore, are all too relevant today.You don’t think that unrepented sin is an issue?
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Path_Finder
Guest
No, I’m not saying the Pope sinned, it was a different time, apparently from the article according to wikipedia, he even made a decision on slavery. I would think that is wrong but in 1400, perceptions may have been different.Are you saying that the pope sinned, but that it was acceptable as he was scared?
The two papal bulls issued by Pope Nicholas V, Dum Diversas of 1452 and Romanus Pontifex of 1455, had effectively given the Portuguese the rights to acquire slaves along the African coast by force or trade. These concessions were confirmed by Sixtus in his own bull, Aeterni regis of 21 June 1481.[17] Arguably the “ideology of conquest” expounded in these texts became the means by which commerce and conversion were facilitated.[18]
Have Popes done wrong? Perhaps, I really don’t know this part of doctrine that well.
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idolatry
Guest
Is sin dependent on papal perception or on what God revealed in the scriptures?No, I’m not saying the Pope sinned, it was a different time, apparently from the article according to wikipedia, he even made a decision on slavery. I would think that is wrong but in 1400, perceptions may have been different.
Have Popes done wrong? Perhaps, I really don’t know this part of doctrine that well.
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Path_Finder
Guest
Is sin dependent on papal perception or on what God revealed in the scriptures?
Roman 3:23.
So, I guess if your complaint is whether a Pope has sinned, this is what Scripture tells us.for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
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idolatry
Guest
Is sin dependent on papal perception or on what God revealed in the scriptures?
Enough said
Why should I complain about that Holy Father?So, I guess if your complaint is whether a Pope has sinned, this is what Scripture tells us.
Enough said
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idolatry
Guest
Do you really think that unrepented sin has no effect on the body?No it didn’t.
No I’m not of the opinion that mostly imagined ills from 500 years ago, committed by people who aren’t alive anymore, are all too relevant today.
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idolatry
Guest
White people have repented of slavery
Do you have any evidence of the church repenting, by way of saying that we were wrong?
and that the Spanish Inquisition had papal approval?
Do you always make excuses for sin?
Do you have any evidence of the church repenting, by way of saying that we were wrong?
Did you forget that all European royalty was subject to the papacyIt may be a thin line, but the Spanish Inquisition was actually done by Spanish Royalty and not the Church.
and that the Spanish Inquisition had papal approval?
Do you always make excuses for sin?
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idolatry
Guest
Another lame excuse; the CC ‘had a relatively brief violent period’The difference is that the Catholic Church started and blossomed peacefully, had a relatively brief violent period (the Crusades were defensive and mainly in reaction to Muslims attempting to take over the world by conquest with the sword), and has since been peaceful. But Islam started out with war and extreme violence (the battle of this and the battle of that), and that’s always been a major driving force in that religion. Compare the life and teachings of Muhammad to the life and teachings of Jesus. The difference is like black and white.
I trust you realise that the crime of most of these people over many centuries
was simply to disagree with Rome.
Most Roman Catholics are of the cafeteria type today and wouldn’t survive the Inquisition
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/InquisitionGarcía Cárcel estimates that the total number of people put on trial by inquisitorial courts throughout their history was approximately 150,000, of which about 3,000 were executed - about two percent of the number of people put on trial.
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Paleocon
Guest
I don’t accept the premise (that the Spanish Inquisition was bad). As far as any sins committed in the execution of it, it is not necessary for people to repent of things they didn’t do.Do you really think that unrepented sin has no effect on the body?
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idolatry
Guest
Do you really think that unrepented sin has no effect on the body?
Torture and murder must have been a good thing for us, Catholics
as it doesn’t bother you
I find this attitude callous, offensive and very un-Christ like
Are we not part of the body that tortured and murdered people who dared to disagree?I don’t accept the premise (that the Spanish Inquisition was bad). As far as any sins committed in the execution of it, it is not necessary for people to repent of things they didn’t do.
Torture and murder must have been a good thing for us, Catholics
as it doesn’t bother you
I find this attitude callous, offensive and very un-Christ like
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rinnie
Guest
Yes because Islam profess to pray to the one true God the God of Abraham, and they do. But unfortunately they follow the teaching’s of Muhammad.With Islam being on the news so often, the question of its alleged violent nature needs to be discussed. However, Aquinas is still held up as the highest Catholic theologian in the Church, even said to be materially infallible by Pius XI. However St. Thomas says things like the following:
“On the other hand, there are unbelievers who at some time have accepted the faith, and professed it, such as heretics and all apostates: such should be submitted even to bodily compulsion, that they may fulfil what they have promised, and hold what they, at one time, received” “ought to be compelled to keep it,” “whereas keeping the faith, when one has received it, is a matter of obligation,” and therefore “Heretics should be compelled to keep the faith.” Summa Theologiae>, II-II, q. 10, a. 8. "Church altogether forbids unbelievers to acquire dominion over believers, or to have authority over them in any capacity."q. 10, a. 10.
If Christians went around following these rules, we would be seen as no different from the Islamics.
St. Thomas Aquinas also discusses bodily mutilation (ST, IIa IIae 65, 1) approvingly, which is unfortunately supported by the Bible: Ex. 21: 24, Lv 24: 19-20. However, the Church now teaches that torture is against human dignity (so when Jesus says sinners will be beaten, he is contradicting human dignity?)
Finally, Father Brian Harrison supplied me with the following
*Ecumenical Council of Vienne *(1311-1312).
“However, the bishop without the inquisitor or the inquisitor without the bishop or his representative . . . may not consign anyone to harsh and cruel imprisonment, which would be punishment rather than custody, or subject anyone to torture” Canon 13 of the Council’s disciplinary decisions. Cf. H. J. Schroeder, O.P., Disciplinary Decrees of the General Councils (London: Herder, 1937)
These are all frightening issues, but my basic questions is: is Islam really different than Christianity, and for that matter, Judaism??
Muhammad is not a true Prophet. History shows that the one true God the God of Abraham teaches pretty much a completely different gospel of Muhammad.
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rinnie
Guest
think about it, was slavery truly acceptable to Christ. I don’t think so. Christ set us all free. Sure having someone wait on you is fine, but they should be paid.Interesting topic - thanks for bringing that up.
Some people don’t like the idea, but religion also changes, it ‘evolves’. Think of the Galileo debacle 400 years ago. Slavery was fully acceptable if you go back in time far enough, etc. etc.
Like today slavery still exists, only a dollar defines it.
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idolatry
Guest
Do Muslims worship the Trinity?Yes because Islam profess to pray to the one true God the God of Abraham, and they do. But unfortunately they follow the teaching’s of Muhammad.
Muhammad is not a true Prophet. History shows that the one true God the God of Abraham teaches pretty much a completely different gospel of Muhammad.
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