The Total Pacifist?

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Vern Wrote:
Let me get this straight – He said, straight up, “one who does not have a sword should sell his cloak and buy one.” And He didn’t really mean it literally?

They showed him that they had two swords with them, and He didn’t say, “I didn’t mean that literally – get rid of those nasty 'ol things?”

And when they went into the garden He didn’t know Peter had a sword?

Your right. Hmmm…Thats good I would hate to see the Swiss Guard go. 🙂
 
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Joysong:
Hi Vern,

Reminds me of the pharisees, too. Having full knowledge of the Mosaic law, they used their prowess to continually jab at Christ in efforts to trip Him up. It is their very knowledge that blinded them to the Truth. This thread is just one more example of a pseudo-seeker baiting Catholics to “show him” (if they can) where he is wrong.
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What?
 
JOYSONG Wrote:
This thread is just one more example of a pseudo-seeker baiting Catholics to “show him” (if they can) where he is wrong.

Pseudo-seeker baiting Catholics? Well I already admitted that my question was answered by Vern so this pseudo-seeking Catholic baiter will now go away.
 
Hey, you erased the pseudo-seeking Catholic baiter thingy in your message Joysong!
 
Darin,

If you look at the time of my message, it was submitted at 9:03. Your reply was at 9:06. I never edited my post any later than 9:03, or else the time change would have appeared. Unfortunately, you saw my true feelings before the general membership viewed the correct post, so if the shoe fits …

I thought about it and realized it was only my personal opinion and erased it immediately within seconds of posting. Jumping the gun to blast me before editing time passed has caused you some needless anxiety, I’m afraid.
 
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Joysong:
Darin,

If you look at the time of my message, it was posted at 9:03. Your reply was 9:06, and I never erased it whatsoever any later than 9:03, or the time change would have appeared. Unfortunately, you saw my true feelings before the general membership viewed my edited post; so if the shoe fits …

I thought about it and realized it was only my personal opinion and erased it immediately within seconds of posting. Jumping the gun to blast me before editing time passed has caused you some needless anxiety, I’m afraid.
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Joysong:
Darin,

If you look at the time of my message, it was submitted at 9:03. Your reply was at 9:06. I never edited my post any later than 9:03, or else the time change would have appeared. Unfortunately, you saw my true feelings before the general membership viewed the correct post, so if the shoe fits …

I thought about it and realized it was only my personal opinion and erased it immediately within seconds of posting. Jumping the gun to blast me before editing time passed has caused you some needless anxiety, I’m afraid.

Now this post IS edited, so you will notice a time difference.
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Blast you? Lord have mercy. How about we make an agreement that we never post in each others threads? Sound fair?
 
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Darin:
Blast you? Lord have mercy. How about we make an agreement that we never post in each others threads? Sound fair?
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Yes. Are you forgetting the private message that no one else here has seen?

Agreed to the latter.
 
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Joysong:
Yes. Are you forgetting the private message that no one else here has seen?

Agreed to the latter.
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No, but thanks for making it sound like I swore at you or something in it.

Private Message.
YOU WROTE: This thread is just one more example of a pseudo-seeker baiting Catholics to “show him” (if they can) where he is wrong.
My personal message to you was:
You are way out of line and I would appreciate it if you never posted in a thread I start again.
 
Enough of the nastiness, Darin. I realize you had a bad day and are seething with leftover anger from the other thread. But one can “blast” with punctuation marks, bolded letters, and over-capitalization, and I’m just not accepting another attempt at a smear. Your p.m. was uncalled for, since I had immediately edited my post! It is rather immature of you to cause this serious thread drift and go on and on with it.
 
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Joysong:
Enough of the nastiness, Darin. I realize you had a bad day and are seething with leftover anger from the other thread. But one can “blast” with punctuation marks, bolded letters, and over-capitalization, and I’m just not accepting another attempt at a smear. Your p.m. was uncalled for, since I had immediately edited my post! It is rather immature of you to cause this serious thread drift and go on and on with it.
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You are right I am mad. You are scaring the serious posters away. :mad: My next PM will be to the moderator if you keep this up. Go away, you have said absolutley nothing on topic in this entire thread. Do you realize that? You have only attacked me! In fact until you arrived it was pretty peaceful here!
 
I am convinced that war is sometimes the option. What about limits? I understand just war and after 8 years in the Army I understand some strategy. Klauswitz, a big name strategist says if the state is in danger then it is the leader duty to launch a pre-emptive strike. Troops massing on the border? I would attack first to limit casualties on my side but I would feel really guilty. Chivalry says you can’t do that and you must always fight fair.

What do you think? Which is the christian choice?
 
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DarinHamel:
Can Just War Theory ever be undone?
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Not “Just War Theory”. It is “Just War Doctrine”. It is best explained by Thomas Aquinas under the heading of charity. If a war is just, those able to fight it are morally obligated to do so. To do otherwise is a sin against charity.

– Mark L. Chance.
 
Doctrine? Does that make it something that cant change like the Immaculate Conception?
 
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DarinHamel:
Doctrine? Does that make it something that cant change like the Immaculate Conception?
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Not quite. The Immaculate Conception is a dogma, which sort of like a higher order of doctrinal statement. Just War Doctrine can change insofar as it can become better defined, but the basic framework itself won’t change.

For example, when Aquinas formulated the Just War Doctrine, he dealt with methods of warfare of his own day. He didn’t, for example, deal with questions about atomic weapons. Just War Doctrine has been expanded to deal with current issues.

We can see the same development of doctrine in the Church’s teaching on capital punishment. Capital punishment is not immoral per se, but the Church teaches that in many countries today, capital punishment is not necessary to protect society from many criminals that, in the past, would have posed serious dangers to the public if lesser punishments were applied to them.

– Mark L. Chance.
 
I didn’t see mentioned in this thread the conversion of Cornelius, the first gentile to be converted into Christianity by the Spirits’ use of St. Peter. See Acts Ch 10. There is no mention in the biblical account of Cornelius having to quit being a centurion upon his conversion and acceptance into the Christian community. Since he was first non-Jew to be converted and he was an active military man, I would think if it was a stipulation that he leave military service it would be noted.
 
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DarinHamel:
And when Peter said “Here Lord we have two swords.” Jesus said, “Enough.” Then Peter used the sword and Jesus healed the man whom Peter cut.

It seems to me that Jesus was just using an analogy and Peter took it literally.

I limit it to after the Descent because before it they made a lot of mistakes. No real reason beyond that.
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I agree with this (I’m a pacifist so take that into conciteration).

I think Jesus was talking about practicality here, what good is a sword if you don’t have a coat? You walk around in your tunic and likely catch cold and die, but you have your trusty sword. We forget that for someone to sell their coat in that time would be to give up your one piece of good clothing (I don’t think that the appostles had much more than the coat on their back). Also how do you witness to someone with a sword on your belt? While I’m sure you’d get more attention I don’t think it’d be the kind you want.
 
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Shlemele:
I agree with this (I’m a pacifist so take that into conciteration).

I think Jesus was talking about practicality here, what good is a sword if you don’t have a coat? You walk around in your tunic and likely catch cold and die, but you have your trusty sword. We forget that for someone to sell their coat in that time would be to give up your one piece of good clothing (I don’t think that the appostles had much more than the coat on their back). Also how do you witness to someone with a sword on your belt? While I’m sure you’d get more attention I don’t think it’d be the kind you want.
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ok… i’m not a pacifist… i believe sometimes force is necessary…

but, you have an interesting point… remember

Luke 9 ( NASB )
2 And He sent them out to proclaim the kingdom of God and to perform healing.
3 And He said to them, "Take nothing for your journey, neither a staff, nor a bag, nor bread, nor money; and do not even have two tunics apiece.

so, to only have the one coat, and then to trade if for a sword?

hmm… i’ll have to think on this one… lol

🙂
 
Here’s a question on this subject. If the state turned against Christianity (as the Roman Empire did for some time), would Christians be justified in using violence in their own defense? Or, as it seems many did, should we peacefully march to the lions? I’ve often wondered about this.
 
The Iambic Pen:
Here’s a question on this subject. If the state turned against Christianity (as the Roman Empire did for some time), would Christians be justified in using violence in their own defense? Or, as it seems many did, should we peacefully march to the lions? I’ve often wondered about this.
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Personally I would hope and pray I had the strength to march peacefully to the lions. I cant remember a single account of the early saints fighting back. They died or fled.

Does anybody have any evidence of them fighting back in Christs name?
 
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