The Traditional Catholic "Movement"

[Pregustator]

Yes, I agree, if all things were equal. All things, however, are not equal at this time. A nun who serves at an abortion clinic and calls herself Catholic and a mother who strives to uphold the Church’s teaching on birth control, family planning and all other areas of faith and morals who calls herself a Catholic are not the same thing. One has placed herself outside the Church by her actions and most likely consistent dissent of Articles of Faith. The other, is trying her best to understand and uphold Church teaching, lead a holy life and pass on the Faith to her children in spite of that type of sister influencing her children in school or CCD classes.

So, I’m gathering, then, that a so-called “Traditionalist Catholic” cannot be called so merely because he attends the Tridentine Mass, exclusively; in order to carry the label legitimately he must also be 100% orthodox in every way, right?

How, then, would one actually label a Catholic who isn’t actually 100% orthodox in his views, but who, nonetheless, attends the old Latin Mass, exclusively. Let’s say he’s rather liberal in his views but at the same time prefers all the pomp and circumstance of the Extraordinary Form of Mass, and despises what he sees as the banality of the typical celebration of the Ordinary Form.

Would he be a “Traditionalist Catholic”? Or just an…I don’t know…and “Aestheticalist-Catholic”?

 

[ConstantineTG]

Granted the immigrants live in the higher density areas, especially those of Spanish and Polish heritage. Do you have any references for your other claims, so I could use them for my future claims?

Wikipedia

I’ve read that in the news in the past but I guess its in the archives now. I did a search and it doesn’t bring up those news articles.

 

[HCC]

So, i take that you like our times better. people without faith, waterdown of the faith. confusion everywhere, ecumenism turning the Catholic faifh just like protestants faiths, the destruction of the Church, modern buildings, dissobedience everywhere, the embarassment to the Church, convents being closed, Catholic universities teaching contrary to Catholic teachings, priests teachings heresies, bad catechism, and so forth.
liberation theology. is this good? lack of leadership. there is a reason why God design things a certain way for us. He knows us better than we do, but we now think that we know ourselves better than God does. God will let us do as we will, but we will face the consequences. we are already facing the consequences.

**
“True Catholics are those who follow the tradition,” said one day St. Pius X**

Dear Wisdomseeker,

I was answering a question posed as to why many people moved on with the changes without question and perhaps felt they were for the best. Those answers have nothing to do with my personal sentiments.

Please take the time to read through my other posts. You will find I detest all of the things you mentioned in spades. I can no longer, unless extreme circumstances permit, attend the OF Mass. I made that decision for many reasons, one main reason is out of charity and another has to do with my duty to be obedient.

My thoughts quickly turn uncharitable at an OF Mass and I have to stop myself. As far as obedience, I can only be obedient to a priest I can respect. I cannot respect a priest who allows dissent, irreverence and frankly, bad taste, to reign at his parish.

In the future, kindly pay attention to what is being said in a post and get to know where a person is coming from over time by watching what screen name posts what over and over. Had you done that, you would know I am no modernist.

+Pax

 

[HCC]

So, I’m gathering, then, that a so-called “Traditionalist Catholic” cannot be called so merely because he attends the Tridentine Mass, exclusively; in order to carry the label legitimately he must also be 100% orthodox in every way, right?

How, then, would one actually label a Catholic who isn’t actually 100% orthodox in his views, but who, nonetheless, attends the old Latin Mass, exclusively. Let’s say he’s rather liberal in his views but at the same time prefers all the pomp and circumstance of the Extraordinary Form of Mass, and despises what he sees as the banality of the typical celebration of the Ordinary Form.

Would he be a “Traditionalist Catholic”? Or just an…I don’t know…and “Aestheticalist-Catholic”?

Yes, the latter. Latin Mass Magazine did an article in the 90s about the growing number of homosexuals who attend TLM for aesthetic value, but don’t hold anything else in the Church. (Not to be confused with homosexuals, sincerely striving to be faithful to Church teaching and bearing their cross daily.)

 

[CradleCath]

Dear Wisdomseeker,

I was answering a question posed as to why many people moved on with the changes without question and perhaps felt they were for the best. Those answers have nothing to do with my personal sentiments.

Wisdomseeker just didn’t read far enough into this thread or they would have caught your next message:

Please take the time to read through my other posts. You will find I detest all of the things you mentioned in spades. I can no longer, unless extreme circumstances permit, attend the OF Mass. I made that decision for many reasons, one main reason is out of charity and another has to do with my duty to be obedient.

My thoughts quickly turn uncharitable at an OF Mass and I have to stop myself

. As far as obedience, I can only be obedient to a priest I can respect. I cannot respect a priest who allows dissent, irreverence and frankly, bad taste, to reign at his parish.

I have the same problem. I sat through too many Masses that were filled with “innovations” &, IMO., irreverence. I’ve watched too many Liturgical dancers. I’ve listened to too many homilies asking me to pray for gay “families”, that those homosexuals who adopt children are modeled after the Holy Family as much as anyone else. (This happened on the feast day of the Holy Family.) I’ve also seen so many of the laity crowding the Sanctuary… 40 years of this, when one prayed the TLM. for years, had become used to it’s Sacred Silence, it’s Theology of Sacrifice, it’s solemnity… has ruined me for the Novus Ordo. If anyone cares to know, the blending of the ordained priesthood & the laity, the blurring of the lines between these two, is perhaps my biggest post-Vatican II “gripe”.

I don’t WANT to feel this way, but I do. Life would be much simpler, if I could attend the Novus Ordo Mass without feeling anger & hurt.

BTW. I take those criticisms of “mean old nuns” with a grain of salt, just as I do when ex public schoolers take about “mean, old Mrs. Jones”. I was taught through grade school by 8 nuns, Benedictines & Precious Blood …& at least 20 different Sacred Heart nuns in high school. That’s a TOTAL of almost 30 nuns & not ONE of them ever touched me, nor did they punish be for something I didn’t deserve to be punished for. I DO remember one of the Sacred Heart nuns…after I had pulled one of my more stupid stunts, who probably would have liked to strike me, but she didn’t. Instead she called my Father. BOY, do I wish she’d hit me instead…because there was hell to pay when I got home.

I appreciate your messages.

 

[HCC]

Dear CradleCath,

I grew up in STL–are they really praying for gay families at Mass? Wow!
Re: Sacred Heart, I assume you mean as in Sts Philippine Duchesne and Madeline Sophie Barat, etc… That has got to be one of the saddest stories of “When nuns go bad” in the history of the Church.

The most beautiful order-GONE! You’re lucky you got them when they were good.

PS Can someone please explain (clearly and simply) how I can insert photos in a post?

Thanks!

 

[CradleCath]

Dear CradleCath,

I grew up in STL–are they really praying for gay families at Mass? Wow!
Re: Sacred Heart, I assume you mean as in Sts Philippine Duchesne and Madeline Sophie Barat, etc… That has got to be one of the saddest stories of “When nuns go bad” in the history of the Church.

The most beautiful order-GONE! You’re lucky you got them when they were good.

PS Can someone please explain (clearly and simply) how I can insert photos in a post?

Thanks!

I would have loved to live in St. Louis, especially after Vatican II, but I’m clear across the state from where you grew up. However, I travelled a lot with my business & been in most major cities in the west & South & St. Louis is my very FAVORITE city. I LOVE the cab drivers. They are ambassadors for your city.

And YES, I was taught by the Sacred Heart nuns & prayed daily for 4 years for the canonization of St. Phillipine Duchesne. If there is any good in me, I can attribute that to my parents & the wonderful women of the RSCJ order. I graduated from their academy 50 yrs. ago this past spring.

Every year about 12 of us from my class take a trip together somewhere. Two years ago we went to St. Charles where Phillipine Duchesne lived. Saw her bare, little cell & visited with two of the very few women left in that order. What happened to them is heartbreaking.
All in the name of aggiornamento. My last newsletter from the order never mentioned Christ, his Sacred Heart…it spoke of saving the trees.

And no, I don’t think they’re praying for gay “families” in St. Louis…Archbishop Burke left a wonderful legacy for traditional Catholicsm when he left for Rome. We now have his protege’ for our Bishop & things are so much better. Still…a lot of damage was done here, for a lot of years.

 

[thealtonroute]

I think Leon Podles gives a good description of the decline of the R.C. Church after Vatican II.

podles.org/dialogue/us-catholicism-decline-and-fall-272.htm

 

[JReducation]

Dear Wisdomseeker,

I was answering a question posed as to why many people moved on with the changes without question and perhaps felt they were for the best. Those answers have nothing to do with my personal sentiments.

Please take the time to read through my other posts. You will find I detest all of the things you mentioned in spades. I can no longer, unless extreme circumstances permit, attend the OF Mass. I made that decision for many reasons, one main reason is out of charity and another has to do with my duty to be obedient.

My thoughts quickly turn uncharitable at an OF Mass and I have to stop myself. As far as obedience, I can only be obedient to a priest I can respect. **I cannot respect a priest who allows dissent, irreverence and frankly, bad taste, to reign at his parish. **
In the future, kindly pay attention to what is being said in a post and get to know where a person is coming from over time by watching what screen name posts what over and over. Had you done that, you would know I am no modernist.

+Pax

The bold is mine.

We need to be very careful here. As St. Francis said, “we obey because it is pleasing to God and man, even when the person in authority does not want what is good for our souls or wants what is less good. We are still bound to obey as Christ obeyed.” This carries over to respect as well. We should choose to respect all people, in this case, all priests.

There are two powerful stories, one from the life of St. Francis and the other from the life of St. Teresa of Avila.

St. Francis was asked why he respected and venerated a priest who was a heretic and a womanizer. He said that even if an angel of God appeared next to the priest, he would kiss the hand of the priest and not the angel, because only the priest can consecrate and only the priets can forgive his sins and get him into heaven. No angel can save our soul.

St. Teresa was criticized for going to confession to a priest who was a known heretic and lived with a woman alleged to practice witch craft. One of the nuns adivised her to stay away from him. Teresa said that she would not stay away from him, nor would she judge him. First, his actions judged themselves, because they were clearly wrong. Therefore, there was no need for her to pass judgment. Second, she said that the scandal people claimed, because she a nun, venerated this priest, was just as sinful as the sins of the priest, because those who are scandalized by the sins of others are usually the ones who have fogotten their own sinfulness. Unless one was innocent of sin, one should not be scandalized except by one’s own faults. Therefore, she claimed that she protected children from scandal and adults should take care of their business first.

Both are very powerful positions from two of the greatest minds of Christian spirituality and probably the two most influential people in Catholic spirituality. Respect is due to everyone, regardless of their sins. Respect is a law of justice. Justice does requires that we give people what they have a right to receive from us, rgardless of what we think of them or what they are or do. If you’re talking about admiration, that’s quite another thing.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[HCC]

The bold is mine.

We need to be very careful here. As St. Francis said, “we obey because it is pleasing to God and man, even when the person in authority does not want what is good for our souls or wants what is less good. We are still bound to obey as Christ obeyed.” This carries over to respect as well. We should choose to respect all people, in this case, all priests.

There are two powerful stories, one from the life of St. Francis and the other from the life of St. Teresa of Avila.

St. Francis was asked why he respected and venerated a priest who was a heretic and a womanizer. He said that even if an angel of God appeared next to the priest, he would kiss the hand of the priest and not the angel, because only the priest can consecrate and only the priets can forgive his sins and get him into heaven. No angel can save our soul.

St. Teresa was criticized for going to confession to a priest who was a known heretic and lived with a woman alleged to practice witch craft. One of the nuns adivised her to stay away from him. Teresa said that she would not stay away from him, nor would she judge him. First, his actions judged themselves, because they were clearly wrong. Therefore, there was no need for her to pass judgment. Second, she said that the scandal people claimed, because she a nun, venerated this priest, was just as sinful as the sins of the priest, because those who are scandalized by the sins of others are usually the ones who have fogotten their own sinfulness. Unless one was innocent of sin, one should not be scandalized except by one’s own faults. Therefore, she claimed that she protected children from scandal and adults should take care of their business first.

Both are very powerful positions from two of the greatest minds of Christian spirituality and probably the two most influential people in Catholic spirituality. Respect is due to everyone, regardless of their sins. Respect is a law of justice. Justice does requires that we give people what they have a right to receive from us, rgardless of what we think of them or what they are or do. If you’re talking about admiration, that’s quite another thing.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Thank you. Those are good stories to keep us in check. My decision was made with the help of a spiritual director, one that exclusively says the OF. I pray for all priests and religious and am charitable in my actions toward them. When I say charitable, I mean, I truly love them as a creation of God. I want the best for their souls. I have had a lot more peace since making the switch, however and this is what I need to do now.

 

[JReducation]

Thank you. Those are good stories to keep us in check. My decision was made with the help of a spiritual director, one that exclusively says the OF. I pray for all priests and religious and am charitable in my actions toward them. When I say charitable, I mean, I truly love them as a creation of God. I want the best for their souls. I have had a lot more peace since making the switch, however and this is what I need to do now.

I’m wondering if the word that would best describe what you’re talking about would be “admire” instead of respect. I know that I certainly have no admiration for someone who is doing something wrong. Just a thought.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[HCC]

I’m wondering if the word that would best describe what you’re talking about would be “admire” instead of respect. I know that I certainly have no admiration for someone who is doing something wrong. Just a thought.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

We’ll have to leave it there. Remembering what many of those priests are like is not only getting me angry, but making me physically ill.

 

[HCC]

I would have loved to live in St. Louis, especially after Vatican II, but I’m clear across the state from where you grew up. However, I travelled a lot with my business & been in most major cities in the west & South & St. Louis is my very FAVORITE city. I LOVE the cab drivers. They are ambassadors for your city.

And YES, I was taught by the Sacred Heart nuns & prayed daily for 4 years for the canonization of St. Phillipine Duchesne. If there is any good in me, I can attribute that to my parents & the wonderful women of the RSCJ order. I graduated from their academy 50 yrs. ago this past spring.

Every year about 12 of us from my class take a trip together somewhere. Two years ago we went to St. Charles where Phillipine Duchesne lived. Saw her bare, little cell & visited with two of the very few women left in that order. What happened to them is heartbreaking.
All in the name of aggiornamento. My last newsletter from the order never mentioned Christ, his Sacred Heart…it spoke of saving the trees.

And no, I don’t think they’re praying for gay “families” in St. Louis…Archbishop Burke left a wonderful legacy for traditional Catholicsm when he left for Rome. We now have his protege’ for our Bishop & things are so much better. Still…a lot of damage was done here, for a lot of years.

Dear CradleCath,

Have you ever read VV Harrison’s book: *Changing Habits: A Memoir of the Society of the Sacred Heart?
*
amazon.com/Changing-Habits-V-V-Harrison/dp/0385248490

It documents the order’s rise and fall. Most of it recalls the good and the beautiful and will make you so grateful for the gift of being taught by one of the most special orders in the Church.

Mais…c’est la vie!

 

[JReducation]

Dear CradleCath,

Have you ever read VV Harrison’s book: *Changing Habits: A Memoir of the Society of the Sacred Heart?
*
amazon.com/Changing-Habits-V-V-Harrison/dp/0385248490

It documents the order’s rise and fall. Most of it recalls the good and the beautiful and will make you so grateful for the gift of being taught by one of the most special orders in the Church.

Mais…c’est la vie!

Wait a minute . . . their story is not that tragic. They’re in 45 countries. I know them. They are not exactly the same as they were in the 1960s and early 70s, this is true. But they are not a dying congregation either. They have many sisters from many other countries.

I’m not privy to their inside story. But from what I can gather, reading their constitutions, what they did was to change from an order to a congregation. This, of course, lifts many customs and disciplines that would no longer apply, because there is a difference between a religious order and a religious congregation. They do not make the same vows nor do they have the monastic and conventual component. Congregations enjoy much more flexibility than orders do. That’s why the Church no longer approves the founding of new orders of women, only men can found orders. The Church wants women religious to have as much flexibility in their ministry and lifestyle as possible. They can go from the very austere as are the Missionaries of Charity to the very active and apostolic as are the Religious of the Sacred Heart of Jesus. It’s one of the beauties of being a congregation. You’re not bound to a rule. Your life is governed by a constitution that can be changed according to culture, time and need. You cannot do that with a rule. The Church does not allow that.

What has happened is that the Church no longer approves rules for women religious. Those that have one, may keep it. But they may also set it aside for a constitution. The trade-off is that they must also set aside the privileges and status of being an order. There are very few orders of women left and most of them are enclosed.

Sometimes what may look tragic to us on the outside, may be very good for those in the community and for the people they serve. I don’t know what anyone’s personal experience was with the Religious of the Sacred Heart, but I do know that I received a wonderful undergraduate education from them. It prepared me to go on to a Pontifical University and get an STD in Mystical Theology. By the time that I went to their school, they were no longer an order. However, that did not diminish their impact on the students at their school. They were wonderful women.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[ProVobis]

I think Leon Podles gives a good description of the decline of the R.C. Church after Vatican II.

podles.org/dialogue/us-catholicism-decline-and-fall-272.htm

Interesting observations. Thanks for this.

 

[HCC]

Wait a minute . . . their story is not that tragic. They’re in 45 countries. I know them. They are not exactly the same as they were in the 1960s and early 70s, this is true. But they are not a dying congregation either. They have many sisters from many other countries.

I’m not privy to their inside story. But from what I can gather, reading their constitutions, what they did was to change from an order to a congregation. This, of course, lifts many customs and disciplines that would no longer apply, because there is a difference between a religious order and a religious congregation. They do not make the same vows nor do they have the monastic and conventual component. Congregations enjoy much more flexibility than orders do. That’s why the Church no longer approves the founding of new orders of women, only men can found orders. The Church wants women religious to have as much flexibility in their ministry and lifestyle as possible. They can go from the very austere as are the Missionaries of Charity to the very active and apostolic as are the Religious of the Sacred Heart of Jesus. It’s one of the beauties of being a congregation. You’re not bound to a rule. Your life is governed by a constitution that can be changed according to culture, time and need. You cannot do that with a rule. The Church does not allow that.

What has happened is that the Church no longer approves rules for women religious. Those that have one, may keep it. But they may also set it aside for a constitution. The trade-off is that they must also set aside the privileges and status of being an order. There are very few orders of women left and most of them are enclosed.

Sometimes what may look tragic to us on the outside, may be very good for those in the community and for the people they serve. I don’t know what anyone’s personal experience was with the Religious of the Sacred Heart, but I do know that I received a wonderful undergraduate education from them. It prepared me to go on to a Pontifical University and get an STD in Mystical Theology. By the time that I went to their school, they were no longer an order. However, that did not diminish their impact on the students at their school. They were wonderful women.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Oh, Dear Brother,

You don’t know much about this tragic tale do you? I’m not going to recount it here. A good friend of mine who went from pre-school through high school at a Sacred Heart school wanted to join them to help reform them. After spending time visiting them, she told me, “they are too far gone to be reformed.” She joined the Poor Clares.

Even since the writing of the book, other sad thing have happened in that order and their schools.

Most Sacred Heart of Jesus have mercy on the RSCJ Sisters.
St Madeline Sophie, pray for your daughters.
St Philippine, pray for your daughters.

 

[JReducation]

Oh, Dear Brother,

You don’t know much about this tragic tale do you? I’m not going to recount it here. A good friend of mine who went from pre-school through high school at a Sacred Heart school wanted to join them to help reform them. After spending time visiting them, she told me, “they are too far gone to be reformed.” She joined the Poor Clares.

Even since the writing of the book, other sad thing have happened in that order and their schools.

Most Sacred Heart of Jesus have mercy on the RSCJ Sisters.
St Madeline Sophie, pray for your daughters.
St Philippine, pray for your daughters.

All I know is what I shared above. I will say this, if anyone tells me that they want to join my community to reform us, they won’t get past the front door. You join a feligious family to enbrace the life they lead, not to change it. Changes may follow, because we all bring something new to the table.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[CradleCath]

Dear CradleCath,

Have you ever read VV Harrison’s book: *Changing Habits: A Memoir of the Society of the Sacred Heart?
*
amazon.com/Changing-Habits-V-V-Harrison/dp/0385248490

It documents the order’s rise and fall. Most of it recalls the good and the beautiful and will make you so grateful for the gift of being taught by one of the most special orders in the Church.

Mais…c’est la vie!

Sorry it took me so long to answer this. I have my whole family coming in for Labor Day weekend…8 grandchildren & some of them are bringing friends. We’ll have 13 kids under the age of 16, so I’ve been cooking.

I had not read that book & didn’t know that it existed. However, I ordered it this morning & can’t wait to read it. Thank you so much.

 

[CradleCath]

Oh, Dear Brother,

You don’t know much about this tragic tale do you? I’m not going to recount it here. A good friend of mine who went from pre-school through high school at a Sacred Heart school wanted to join them to help reform them. After spending time visiting them, she told me, “they are too far gone to be reformed.” She joined the Poor Clares.

Even since the writing of the book, other sad thing have happened in that order and their schools.

Most Sacred Heart of Jesus have mercy on the RSCJ Sisters.
St Madeline Sophie, pray for your daughters.
St Philippine, pray for your daughters.

You’re right HCC. I kept in touch with many of my teachers for several years. All but one left the order during the 70’s & it IS a tragic story.

I read the following on a customer review of the book you linked me to:

“But when the edicts of Vatican II threw open the doors of the Catholic Church to the 20th century, they sowed seeds of disorder throughout the Society. The call for renewal, to become attuned to the world of today, turned the congregation upside down. Lives that had been restrained by the rule of cloister and the monastic traditions of the past were not easily adaptable to the freedom of the new edicts. The nuns suffered an unplanned- for defection from their ranks and many of their well-known and exclusive academies were forced to close.”

 

[StTommyMore]

You’re right HCC. I kept in touch with many of my teachers for several years. All but one left the order during the 70’s & it IS a tragic story.

I read the following on a customer review of the book you linked me to:

“But when the edicts of Vatican II threw open the doors of the Catholic Church to the 20th century, they sowed seeds of disorder throughout the Society. The call for renewal, to become attuned to the world of today, turned the congregation upside down. Lives that had been restrained by the rule of cloister and the monastic traditions of the past were not easily adaptable to the freedom of the new edicts. The nuns suffered an unplanned- for defection from their ranks and many of their well-known and exclusive academies were forced to close.”

Again we have misplaced blame. There are many things that are done “in the Spirit of Vatican 2” that are nowhere to be found in the actual documents