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StTommyMore
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“Communion on the Tongue” and “Communion in the Hand”
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rosary_kat
Guest
This is where I think there can be too much laity. I know of only one priest in my diocese who cannot physically handle giving communion all by himself. Also, when EMEs can veto a priest’s desire to present the body AND the blood at Mass, because, well who knows why because, I cry foul.
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HCC
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Yes, I agree, if all things were equal. All things, however, are not equal at this time. A nun who serves at an abortion clinic and calls herself Catholic and a mother who strives to uphold the Church’s teaching on birth control, family planning and all other areas of faith and morals who calls herself a Catholic are not the same thing. One has placed herself outside the Church by her actions and most likely consistent dissent of Articles of Faith. The other, is trying her best to understand and uphold Church teaching, lead a holy life and pass on the Faith to her children in spite of that type of sister influencing her children in school or CCD classes.
Yes, it is very, very sad that we are in this boat. Most “traditional” Catholics are simply just Catholics. I don’t know anyone in the Traditionalist camp who goes around wearing that title on their sleeves. They are deeply pained by all the issues at play, when they simply want the true, beautiful Faith handed down by the Apostles, Church Fathers and expounded on by saints throughout the ages.
Many people who are upset by said titles (and I’ll refrain from examples here) are the very same people who allowed the crisis and divisions we now see in the Church. Mostly, by allowing radical and subtle dissent and ambiguity to reign in their dioceses and parishes. Those things are just starting to be addressed. I see the investigation into the state of women’s religious congregations in the US and the investigation into the doctrinal content of the LCWR to be very good places to begin.
Yes, knowing and living our faith individually and working to save our own souls is “our job” and as Vatican II stated, contemplatives are the heart of the Church. Many of the orders flourishing right now, particularly in France are contemplatives. That is a wonderful sign at the heart of the Church. However, that does not detract from the importance of various people, like Michael Davies and many, many others, who for the last 40 years have called Church leaders out on things and even approached, then, Cardinal Ratzinger, to help him understand the effects of the misapplication of Vatican II ‘in the pews.’ These warnings from concerned “traditional Catholics” have helped pave the way for a reform of the reform. And God bless all those at the forefront of this work.
So, you see, while it is very unfortunate that we are at a place where we have “way-way-outs,” “heterodox,” “extreme left,” “lefties,” “traditionalists,” “centrists,” “orthodox,” “orthodox, but wears pants and doesn’t cover her hair,” etc…etc…etc… These are a way, for better or for worse, to help clarify who is who and what is what in these very murky times. I am not, again, not saying this is the ideal, but we are not in an ideal state of unity within the Church.
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StTommyMore
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Traditionally, Communion has been offered in one species (bread). In the EF, is is still done this way. In the OF, it is offered under both species normally, even though the Cup was not offered in my diocese during the H1N1 scare. It is the prerogative of the priest to offer one or both species. You are right to cry foul because it is not up to the Extraordinary Ministers, or Liturgical committee, or anyone other than the priest to make this decision.
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archangel04
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agreed
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floresco
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The thing is that people don’t usually say “I am enamoured with disobedience and a schismatic mindset”. This is a judgment that you are making about them, apparently on insufficient grounds. We cannot assume this about people because they love and/or attend the EF. We cannot assume this about people because they call themselves “traditionalists”. We cannot assume this about people because of where they attend Mass.
We are living in very confusing times and well-meaning people might end up in disobedience or in schism without being enamoured with these things. I don’t see anything wrong with having sympathy with them. On the contrary, being understanding of their concerns seems the most likely way to win them back to obedience and communion.
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floresco
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I think that anyone who adheres to the traditions of the Church is going to view Vatican II as problematic, at least in as much as it is sometimes interpreted with a hermeneutic of discontinuity.
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StTommyMore
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Then the problem is not with the council per se, but with the erroneous interpretations made by some.
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floresco
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The documents themselves are sufficiently ambiguous to allow for the erroneous interpretations.
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wisdomseeker
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the erroneous enterpretation and those who adhere to them.
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StTommyMore
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You could say the same about all of the Ecumenical Councils. If Trent had no questions, then why was the Roman Catechism deemed necessary? The fault was not with the Council itself, but with individuals misinterpreting the documents.
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Stylites
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The problem is that those prone to prideful schism share the same hyphenated label of “traditionalists”, hence the pasting of this thread’s OP from some sort of wiki. If they want to avoid schism then just repent and return to lawful worship and away from unlawful worship.
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floresco
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I strongly suspect that there are people prone to prideful schism bearing many different labels. St Paul wrote to the church at Corinth: What I mean is that each one of you says, “I belong to Paul” or “I belong to Apollos,” or “I belong to Cephas” or “I belong to Christ.” (I Cor 1:12)
In St. Paul’s time, there were people who said “I belong to Christ” who participated in the quarrels and dissension tearing apart the Corinthian church. So I expect that in our time that there are similar people who say “I am just an ordinary unlabelled Catholic” It is not a person’s label that tells us if he is proud or quarrelsome; it is his behaviour.
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StTommyMore
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is it not prideful and quarrelsome to assume that all who attend the EF associate themselves with schismatics?
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JustaServant
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That’s not what the poster said, they said:
It is true when a group of people are marginalized and dismissed (as were many in my parents generation in the 1970s), they will associate themselves with anyone who will give them a voice. That’s basic sociology. Not an excuse, but it is the reality.
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rosary_kat
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Oh, DUH
…Thank you!
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Ockham
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It’s sad and very telling that some people need to associate Traditional Catholics with schismatics. It’s like associating all Americans with militia extremists.
Pope Benedict XVI has stated that the Council was misinterpreted and that we’ve yet to implement its teachings. That’s a pretty clear indication the ‘spirit of V2’ changes we’ve endured these past forty years are questionable.
The new bishops seem to be more traditional and less likely to deviate from the Pope thus creating their own de facto branches. The ‘reform of the reform’ is in motion yet I doubt The Church will be able to completely repair the modern damage in our generation.
Pope Benedict XVI has stated that the Council was misinterpreted and that we’ve yet to implement its teachings. That’s a pretty clear indication the ‘spirit of V2’ changes we’ve endured these past forty years are questionable.
The new bishops seem to be more traditional and less likely to deviate from the Pope thus creating their own de facto branches. The ‘reform of the reform’ is in motion yet I doubt The Church will be able to completely repair the modern damage in our generation.
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StTommyMore
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Now there is some optimism.
Give me a break. There has been no irreparable damage done. Setbacks, yes. But damage? Not the way I see it.
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Ockham
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Really? Check the stats these past forty years. I suspect many people with the best intentions didn’t get into Heaven due to these modern changes. When Catholics start making Mass every Sunday, regular Confession, receive the Blessed Sacrament in a state of grace, then we’re back on track.
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CradleCath
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Thank you, THANK YOU!!
I was hoping that someone would notice this. One who is not in full Communion with the Pope, cannot be considered Catholic.
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