The traditionalist and the modernist.

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This gets to the heart of the thread, doesn’t it?

If one says that traditionalists want “their” kind of tradition, what does that mean?

The tradition they want is Catholic tradition: and “they” are Catholics. Usually, this means the tridentine mass.

The Church cannot consistently maintain (and indeed, it has never done so) that traditionalists are “wrong” to demand what “they” always had.

The new mass is a different thing than the old mass. They share similarities and scaramental identity but anyone who says that they are interchangeable is simply mistaken. The thing is evident within the first five minutes of the service.

It is impossible for traditionalists to be wrong at least on their approach to the mass and prayers. Early in the thread, the example was given of a teacher who taught “2 plus two is four,” but the student keeps answering “five.” The analogy is really of a teacher who suddenly announces “two and two is five” and the student insists “no, four.”
The difference is the direction is being led by individuals instead of the Church herself. Not that I am saying that the Tridentine Mass is a bad thing. I believe its the spirit of trying to conform only with certain traditions and disregarding others which is dangerous. It goes against Church unity. Not just because you hold on to traditions that are Catholic means its a good thing. The problem here is defying the authority of the Church herself by questioning the current direction of the Church. Holding on to tradition is not really the issue, its defying the direction of the Church today.
 
The difference is the direction is being led by individuals instead of the Church herself. Not that I am saying that the Tridentine Mass is a bad thing. I believe its the spirit of trying to conform only with certain traditions and disregarding others which is dangerous. It goes against Church unity. Not just because you hold on to traditions that are Catholic means its a good thing. The problem here is defying the authority of the Church herself by questioning the current direction of the Church. Holding on to tradition is not really the issue, its defying the direction of the Church today.
Is the Church leading in a new direction? If she is leading, where is she leading? You say the Church has a “current direction.” How is it defying authority to ask what that direction is?

Traditionalists do not, generally, select only certain traditions and not others. I am not aware of any instance where a traditional Catholic has said, for instance, I want the traditional mass, but not the traditional confession. Or, I’ll take the old form of ordination, but don’t you dare try to fob those old stations of the cross on me!

How on earth can a wholesale attachment to all of the traditions of the Church be dangerous? Those traditions have stood the test of time and been the source of countless blessings.

The most you can say is that the bishops you chose to follow are alive, while the ones I chose to follow are, mostly, dead. I grant that confers a rhetorical advantage to your side, but I have the weight of numbers, at least.

The authority of the Church is the authority to direct people to her own traditions. No member of the Church has the authority to teach what is contrary to the Church’s own nature.

For traditionalists, holding on to tradition is the issue.
 
Is the Church leading in a new direction? If she is leading, where is she leading? You say the Church has a “current direction.” How is it defying authority to ask what that direction is?
Some people do think so. Modernists think that the Church is heading their direction. Traditionalists think the Church is heading away from their direction. I say the Church is doing what is needed today. The Church has to address the needs of society today because the business of the Church is to save souls, bring them back into the fold. She must decide always what is best to accomplish that.
Traditionalists do not, generally, select only certain traditions and not others. I am not aware of any instance where a traditional Catholic has said, for instance, I want the traditional mass, but not the traditional confession. Or, I’ll take the old form of ordination, but don’t you dare try to fob those old stations of the cross on me

How on earth can a wholesale attachment to all of the traditions of the Church be dangerous? Those traditions have stood the test of time and been the source of countless blessings.
Its not bad to prefer the old form. The issue is those who think the new forms are invalid or questionable at best. That was my point.
The most you can say is that the bishops you chose to follow are alive, while the ones I chose to follow are, mostly, dead. I grant that confers a rhetorical advantage to your side, but I have the weight of numbers, at least.

The authority of the Church is the authority to direct people to her own traditions. No member of the Church has the authority to teach what is contrary to the Church’s own nature.

For traditionalists, holding on to tradition is the issue.
You wouldn’t hear that from me. As I immerse myself more in Eastern Catholicism, I find that in Eastern Christianity there is a great weight put on the value of what the Church Fathers have taught and practiced. But Eastern Christians has always valued both whats old and new at the same time. There need not be any conflict. Thats the problem the Roman Church is facing today. Some reject the new in favor of the old. Some insist on the new and reject the old. Both should be able to go hand in hand. Its being done in the Church today.
 
Some people do think so. Modernists think that the Church is heading their direction. Traditionalists think the Church is heading away from their direction. I say the Church is doing what is needed today. The Church has to address the needs of society today because the business of the Church is to save souls, bring them back into the fold. She must decide always what is best to accomplish that.
It is alright for people to ask “whither thou goest.”

Its not bad to prefer the old form. The issue is those who think the new forms are invalid or questionable at best. That was my point.

.

The question comes down to “what is to be done?” If someone prefers the old form, and that is not bad, then does that person not have the right as a Christian to demand it?
 
It is alright for people to ask “whither thou goest.”
Of course. But we should trust the Church in the decision she makes. The Pope and the Bishops know more about what needs to be done that what we do. And there is a reason why God put them there and not us.
The question comes down to “what is to be done?” If someone prefers the old form, and that is not bad, then does that person not have the right as a Christian to demand it?
The Church has done a great job to accomodate those who prefer the old form. It is a perfectly good sign that the Church responds to the spiritual needs of the laity. Of course asking the Church to completely remove the Pauline Mass and reinstate the Tridentine Mass as the OF is already going beyond that. Many people are spiritually fed by the Pauline Mass. We should trust the Church’s judgment on that.
 
The question comes down to “what is to be done?” If someone prefers the old form, and that is not bad, then does that person not have the right as a Christian to demand it?
This is not a traditional way to look at the standing of the individual within the Church – “I have the right to demand what I prefer.” To speak of a Joe-Schmoe layperson exercising rights and levying demands against the Church is a total subversion of the hierarchical principles of the Church.
 
This is not a traditional way to look at the standing of the individual within the Church – “I have the right to demand what I prefer.” To speak of a Joe-Schmoe layperson exercising rights and levying demands against the Church is a total subversion of the hierarchical principles of the Church.
I am not certain that this is true. The people loved St. Francis before the popes did. I expect that they loved orthodoxy before many of the bishops did, too.

Joe Schmoe may not have understood all of the mass, but he knew it was the mass. That is more than some bishops knew. In such a case, who should obey whom?

Joe also loved the Blessed Mother, so he prayed the rosary. First Joe prayed, then the Church ratified it. Based on the tradition, the bishop can say “Pray the rosary, Ye Sons of Joe.”

If tomorrow the bishop says “Do not pray the rosary,” who is right, the Schmoes or the bishop?

Modernists tend to superimpose their own rebellion on traditionalists. They are running from tradition, and carry some bishops with them. Then, noting the distance that has opened between them and the traditionalists, they accuse the traditionalists of “distancing themselves.” There is a great difference between a stationary person and a running person, however.
 
I am not certain that this is true. The people loved St. Francis before the popes did. I expect that they loved orthodoxy before many of the bishops did, too.

Joe Schmoe may not have understood all of the mass, but he knew it was the mass. That is more than some bishops knew. In such a case, who should obey whom?

Joe also loved the Blessed Mother, so he prayed the rosary. First Joe prayed, then the Church ratified it. Based on the tradition, the bishop can say “Pray the rosary, Ye Sons of Joe.”

If tomorrow the bishop says “Do not pray the rosary,” who is right, the Schmoes or the bishop?

Modernists tend to superimpose their own rebellion on traditionalists. They are running from tradition, and carry some bishops with them. Then, noting the distance that has opened between them and the traditionalists, they accuse the traditionalists of “distancing themselves.” There is a great difference between a stationary person and a running person, however.
I think a lot of these issues can be illuminated by giving consideration to the principles expressed in Canon 212 of the Code of Canon Law:
Can. 212 §1. Conscious of their own responsibility, the Christian faithful are bound to follow with Christian obedience those things which the sacred pastors, inasmuch as they represent Christ, declare as teachers of the faith or establish as rulers of the Church.

§2. The Christian faithful are free to make known to the pastors of the Church their needs, especially spiritual ones, and their desires.

§3. According to the knowledge, competence, and prestige which they possess, they have the right and even at times the duty to manifest to the sacred pastors their opinion on matters which pertain to the good of the Church and to make their opinion known to the rest of the Christian faithful, without prejudice to the integrity of faith and morals, with reverence toward their pastors, and attentive to common advantage and the dignity of persons.
You are “free to make known” your needs and desires, and you have the “right and even at times the duty” to express your opinion. In the end, however, you are “bound to follow with Christian obedience” the judgments that your sacred pastors “declare as teachers of the faith or establish as rulers of the Church.”

It is, I have to say, a fundamentally modernist hermeneutic under which we expect that, by ourselves, we investigate history and tradition, determine its principles, and then judge our obedience to the present Church hierarchy according to how well they match up to our conception of tradition. So if a bishop says, “I have determined that it is wrong to pray the Rosary, and you must stop,” but the people say, “This guy’s gone off the reservation; we don’t have to listen to him!” and do it anyway, who’s wrong? They both are: the bishop for making a bad judgment, and the people for disregarding their sacred pastor based on their own preferences and conceptions, rather than making their case to the bishop or to the pope.

This is the same fundamentally modernist form of traditionalism, by the way, under which some people decide, “I will read the documents of Trent and the old catechisms for myself, investigate what they mean, and then judge whether Vatican II and modern popes have changed doctrine or committed heresy.” It’s the sola scriptura approach to traditionalism, through which every individual must first determine for himself the tenets of the faith – not from the Bible, of course, but from old Church documents.

That’s a little off topic, but it’s related to the roots of your question, “If someone prefers the old form, and that is not bad, then does that person not have the right as a Christian to demand it?”, to which the answer is, “No, you do not have a right ‘as a Christian’ to demand that your preferences be put into effect.”
 
I am not certain that this is true. The people loved St. Francis before the popes did. I expect that they loved orthodoxy before many of the bishops did, too.

Joe Schmoe may not have understood all of the mass, but he knew it was the mass. That is more than some bishops knew. In such a case, who should obey whom?

Joe also loved the Blessed Mother, so he prayed the rosary. First Joe prayed, then the Church ratified it. Based on the tradition, the bishop can say “Pray the rosary, Ye Sons of Joe.”

If tomorrow the bishop says “Do not pray the rosary,” who is right, the Schmoes or the bishop?

Modernists tend to superimpose their own rebellion on traditionalists. They are running from tradition, and carry some bishops with them. Then, noting the distance that has opened between them and the traditionalists, they accuse the traditionalists of “distancing themselves.” There is a great difference between a stationary person and a running person, however.
But here’s the thing, St. Francis wouldn’t go against the wishes of a Bishop whether he agrees with the Bishop or not.
 
So if a bishop says, “I have determined that it is wrong to pray the Rosary, and you must stop,” but the people say, “This guy’s gone off the reservation; we don’t have to listen to him!” and do it anyway, who’s wrong? They both are: the bishop for making a bad judgment, and the people for disregarding their sacred pastor based on their own preferences and conceptions, rather than making their case to the bishop or to the pope…"
This is impossible. One must be right and the other wrong. If the teaching is wrongful, then following it is wrongful. For example, people living under Arian bishops were not bound to obey their heretical teachings.
 
This is impossible. One must be right and the other wrong. If the teaching is wrongful, then following it is wrongful. For example, people living under Arian bishops were not bound to obey their heretical teachings.
If we lose communion with our Bishop, we lose communion with the Pope. We are in Communion with the Pope only through our Communion with our Bishop.

If a Bishop becomes heretical, then the Pope or the Patriarch would need to take possession of that Diocese/Eparchy until a replacement can be installed.
 
This is the same fundamentally modernist form of traditionalism, by the way, under which some people decide, “I will read the documents of Trent and the old catechisms for myself, investigate what they mean, and then judge whether Vatican II and modern popes have changed doctrine or committed heresy.” It’s the sola scriptura approach to traditionalism, through which every individual must first determine for himself the tenets of the faith – not from the Bible, of course, but from old Church documents."
I am struggling with the concept of modernist traditionalism. Letting it pass, though, traditionalists do not become so through a sola scriptura ratiocination. They tasted, and saw. Then they perceived that the salt had lost its savor.

Now, I do not deny the authority of the council, though I wonder what that authority consists of. It does appear, however, that in granting liberty to celebrate the old forms of the sacraments that the Church is recognizing the rightfulness of the request. It also appears that had not some people refused to worship under the newer forms, the recognition would not have been forthcoming.

Personally, I incline to the view that the worst is past. The older forms will enjoy wider use, the newer forms will be appreciated in a wider context. Perhaps, in the future, the entire period will be looked at as “the V2 era” .
 
If we lose communion with our Bishop, we lose communion with the Pope. We are in Communion with the Pope only through our Communion with our Bishop.

If a Bishop becomes heretical, then the Pope or the Patriarch would need to take possession of that Diocese/Eparchy until a replacement can be installed.
And if this does not happen?
 
And if this does not happen?
We have to truth the Church as the pillar of truth. The problem is on a personal level, we may believe a certain bishop may be out of line when in reality he is not. So who is more correct, our opinion or the Church’s stance to keep a bishop? Besides, even if a bishop may sound outright heretical, we don’t know what is happening behind the scenes for us to speculate so much. If we truly believe in Christ, we should believe in His Church, we should do so in this situation as well. Prayers are in order.
 
We have to truth the Church as the pillar of truth. The problem is on a personal level, we may believe a certain bishop may be out of line when in reality he is not. So who is more correct, our opinion or the Church’s stance to keep a bishop? Besides, even if a bishop may sound outright heretical, we don’t know what is happening behind the scenes for us to speculate so much. If we truly believe in Christ, we should believe in His Church, we should do so in this situation as well. Prayers are in order.
This statement is very interesting, and throws some light on how traditionalists and modernists (no bad connotations in the sense I use this word, btw) apprach problems differently. In the hypothetical case of our bad bishop, the traditionalist measures him against known tradition. The modernist looks to see whether there is any authority for the bishop’s actions - in effect, substituting authority for the lack of tradition.

I am going to suggest that the health of the Church benefits from both approaches, at least in this age. Technically, I suppose this puts me at odds with the premise of the thread.
 
This statement is very interesting, and throws some light on how traditionalists and modernists (no bad connotations in the sense I use this word, btw) apprach problems differently. In the hypothetical case of our bad bishop, the traditionalist measures him against known tradition. The modernist looks to see whether there is any authority for the bishop’s actions - in effect, substituting authority for the lack of tradition.

I am going to suggest that the health of the Church benefits from both approaches, at least in this age. Technically, I suppose this puts me at odds with the premise of the thread.
But trusting the Church is the known tradition. Its also supported by Scripture and as Catholics we know that Scripture is supported by Tradition

[BIBLEDRB]Matthew 18:15-17[/BIBLEDRB]

I’m sure Rome will keep tabs on Bishops to ensure that they are indeed in communion with the Pope. Especially in this day and age where information travels at the speed of thought.
 
But trusting the Church is the known tradition. Its also supported by Scripture and as Catholics we know that Scripture is supported by Tradition
That is one of the traditions, to be sure. But it is not the only one. And we both know that Rome has not kept tabs on the bishops, except of course the traditional ones.*
 
That is one of the traditions, to be sure. But it is not the only one. And we both know that Rome has not kept tabs on the bishops, except of course the traditional ones.
That is speculation. We do not know what happens behind the scenes. Not just because what we want to happen doesn’t happen, that doesn’t mean something is not happening.
 
Seven pages and not one mention of either neo-modernism or the fact that the Church threw Ven Pius XII’s encyclical Humani Generis - along with scholastic theology - in the dustbin during and after Vatican Council II…

And of course, there’s been a gross misunderstanding of what’s meant by traditional Catholics and Modernism.

Lastly, it’s sad to see an excessive appeal to obedience. Please read this carefully: newadvent.org/summa/3104.htm#article5

History has already shown us that the bishops - even the majority of them - aren’t always right: during the Arian crisis (even after Nicaea I), only 1-3% of Catholic bishops kept the Faith (i.e. the Nicene Creed).
 
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