The Transition of the Soul

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With so many faculties of human cognition and emotion now being identified with the brain, how can these faculties carry over into the afterlife when our brain dies?
Here’s a thought (LOL! see what I did there?) Anyway… okay, you said something here in the thread and I heard it, sort of, and now I’m saying something and to you are hearing it.

Computers are brains, electronic ones. But when you go off line, you don’y need a computer to think feel or decide.

Brains are the organs we act through to connect with others in Time. We become present and relative to the rest of the people here through our brain, and by extension our bodies. But we aren’t our brains, our memories are actually not some bunch of physical anything stored in tissue.

When you body stops functioning, it’s because you get up and leave it behind. You’ll still be you and your self and knowledge will be intact.
 
Here’s a thought (LOL! see what I did there?) Anyway… okay, you said something here in the thread and I heard it, sort of, and now I’m saying something and to you are hearing it.

Computers are brains, electronic ones. But when you go off line, you don’y need a computer to think feel or decide.

Brains are the organs we act through to connect with others in Time. We become present and relative to the rest of the people here through our brain, and by extension our bodies. But we aren’t our brains, our memories are actually not some bunch of physical anything stored in tissue.

When you body stops functioning, it’s because you get up and leave it behind. You’ll still be you and your self and knowledge will be intact.
Unfortunately that is a difficult claim, precisely because of things like amnesia, where damaging a part of our brain causes memory loss. According to others in this thread, the human soul contains our most human faculties and our attributes that carry over, such as free will, intellect, conscience, knowledge/memory, etc., and our brain is the physical medium that allows these attributes to express themselves. A damaged brain does not damage our innate faculties, only the extent to which they can be expressed in life. For example, amnesia does not damage memory, it only damages the part of the brain that expresses memory. This is both highly interesting and highly difficult to grasp or verify.

In attempting to define and describe the soul and its distinctions from the brain, I think it could be useful to borrow some philosophical terminology. It seems to me that the soul part of the human person, the “spiritual principle”, as the Catechism calls it, is our capacity for objectivity. The ability to view the world, others and ourselves objectivity, using reason, conscience and love (agape) is uniquely human. From this derives our capacity for free will, consciousness and religious belief, and animals’ lack of a soul makes them completely subjective, viewing the world entirely based on their own preferences, emotions and perspective and incapable of seeing beyond that. Humans can, and it is this objectivity that is uniquely human. I think this objectivity mirrors God’s deepest nature as Lord, above Creation and all biases therein. He can look on all things distinctly - He is not a judge of persons, nor is He limited by time, place or focus. He loves each individual for themselves, based on their own qualities, not simply because of His own feelings or preferences. This is why He can love us with enough charity to overlook our sins. Otherwise, even with good intentions, He would see us as inevitable failures.

It also seems to me that humans, being fallen, have a certain animalistic quality. This is not a bad thing necessarily - the driving force of animal bodies is survival, and this is a good thing. But because of the Fall, our bodies can become confused; they can prefer survival and assurance of survival, such as pleasure or power, over goodness and truth. I think humans are constantly pulled towards the animal, while also drawn towards God. This is our great “either/or” - which do you prefer: yourself, or God? Asceticism works to discipline the animal and make God the dominant focus of our lives.

As for the connection of the above-mentioned definition of the soul, and its relation to the brain, I have never seen an explanation of human objectivity within the brain. But the game of religious people calling certain faculties spiritual, scientists connecting them to the body, and the ensuing argument is tiresome and cannot end well for religious people, nor is it a noble focus of science. Somehow, I think Catholics need to more accurately define our view of the soul, and make it immune to any disproofs scientists might try to use.
 
I was referring to severely mentally handicapped individuals with IQs below 20, as in those in a persistent vegetative state, for instance. More to the point though, if intellect and free will can’t be detected or demonstrated, how are you justified in claiming that those attributes are still present?
Humans beget humans with a human nature which in itself unites both the material and spiritual worlds. However, this does not imply that we are two separate natures united; rather their union forms a single nature.
A one-minute old human zygote does not have any physical component that could even be remotely described as a body or brain. Yet, it seems that you would claim that by virtue of it being ensouled (at conception, one-minute earlier) it would have intellect and free will (again, without being detectable). Perhaps one could argue that the soul develops (and deteriorates) along with the body and brain, but I don’t think Catholic doctrine permits that.
Catholicism teaches that the soul is spiritual which neither develops nor deteriorates like a decomposing anatomy.
Obviously Neanderthals of 30K years ago were not nearly as intelligent as modern humans, but the question is how much different from other archaic human species were they?
Humans are either the same as you and me or they are not human. 😃

The misunderstanding regarding the use of the phrase “archaic human species” is that science correctly remains in the material/physical realm. Therefore any living organism can be called human or elephant or…
Personally, I believe that I am a unique living organism consisting of spirit and matter or in Catholic terms, eternal spiritual soul and an amazing material anatomy.
IMO, not much. If you want to argue that none of these archaic human species had souls, then I’d be curious to know when you think fully-human humans did acquire them and how one could tell the difference.
Regarding a fully complete human person with the same nature as you and me, there are clues in a secular reading of the first three chapters of Genesis. However, the best way to learn about your human nature is to study paragraphs 355 -421 in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition. link scborromeo.org/ccc.htm
Put paragraph 355 in the search bar (one can enter the Catechism at that point) and enjoy!

If you mean when did Adam live, I don’t know. He had to live sometime, otherwise I might be known as a smaller elephant.
(BTW, several years ago, after scientists had extracted and isolated some Neanderthal DNA, some were speculating whether or not Neanderthals could be cloned. Someone at the Vatican objected on the grounds that “humans” should not be cloned. :eek: )
Someone at the Vatican…big deal!!! The Pope could call an elephant human and it would not change anything. This is because Catholic dogma is in the spiritual realm of faith and morals.
Bottom line: I agree that intellect and will are human attributes, but are not byproducts of ensoulment.
And I believe that those “byproducts” are what will get humans into heaven or hell. 😉
 
If we could get back on topic please. This is not a Neanderthal discussion, and I don’t want it closed for mention of evolution.
 
If we could get back on topic please. This is not a Neanderthal discussion, and I don’t want it closed for mention of evolution.
My apology for getting off track.

In regard to your question, “How can bodily functions of the brain also carry over?” – Bodily functions are not needed to share in the life of God Who is pure spirit. Because God is pure spirit is why we have a spiritual soul with its intellective powers and will. We share in God’s life through our knowledge and love. It is my understanding that this post along with posts 4 & 8 have answered your concerns.

Blessings,
granny

John 3: 16 & 17
 
A one-minute old human zygote does not have any physical component that could even be remotely described as a body or brain. Yet, it seems that you would claim that by virtue of it being ensouled (at conception, one-minute earlier) it would have intellect and free will (again, without being detectable). Perhaps one could argue that the soul develops (and deteriorates) along with the body and brain, but I don’t think Catholic doctrine permits that.
I grant you the one-minute zygote may not have consciousness or intentionality (in the usual sense). But it does have potentiality which is gradually being actualized. The soul (as understood by Aristotle) is a technical philosophical term for a specific potentiality; it is the form, a principle of operation; it is not the consciousness itself (it is not, in the Cartesian vocabulary, a res cogitans) … because the soul is not the entity itself but the form which many particulars can share in …

So it is not too much of a stretch to say that the soul is present at conception (both as formal “cause” and as a “final” cause).

Now in human beings we have a new reality, the person … the person is not the soul because “person” is not a form that can shared by many particulars … there is no “form” of “John Doe” … “John Doe” is a singularity, “incommunicable” … but the person is in some sense enabled by the form …

I apologize for this technical “philosophese” … but the reality of human beings is complicated …

The person, surprisingly, is not identical with the consciousness, the res cogitans … the person is there at conception … as a unique “nuance” of the Aristotelian form … but, in contrast to the form, the person is the entity itself … an unusual entity … not simply an instantiation of a form, but a singularity that falls outside species and genus (“John Doe” is not a sortal noun) … the particular, let’s say, oak tree is not a singularity in this sense … as Heidegger would say, Dasein is not one of the entities within-in-the-world …

All of these distinctions are necessary to address the point of this thread … all the operations of the human being are dependent, not on the brain or the biological body, but on the person. You can’t assign some activities to the brain and other activities to the “soul” … it’s all of whole cloth
 
. A damaged brain does not damage our innate faculties, only the extent to which they can be expressed in life. For example, amnesia does not damage memory, it only damages the part of the brain that expresses memory. This is both highly interesting and highly difficult to grasp or verify.
++
In attempting to define and describe the soul and its distinctions from the brain, I think it could be useful to borrow some philosophical terminology. It seems to me that the soul part of the human person, the “spiritual principle”, as the Catechism calls it, is our capacity for objectivity.
Here I would, considering how subjective we are in my experience, substitute the word relativity. In only a few species do individuals know they are individuals, that is, only a few can identify themselves as “self.” What we can also do, I believe, is identify ourselves as distinct from God.
 
Here I would, considering how subjective we are in my experience, substitute the word relativity. In only a few species do individuals know they are individuals, that is, only a few can identify themselves as “self.” What we can also do, I believe, is identify ourselves as distinct from God.
That is interesting yes. I think that for the most part, human beings are subjective, because of our animal body. But we are also capable of objectivity (without “being objective” in the conditional sense). Your idea of relativity is intriguing. As you say, I think our relativity signifies our individuality as persons, rather than organisms. Our individuality is not determined by our body; we are persons in a spiritual sense. I think this is why science has had such difficulty defining not only what life itself is, but what makes us truly human. It is the fact that we are persons, rather than organisms.

And what makes use persons? Two things: relativity/individuality, and the capacity for objectivity. I think that these two traits also signify the “spiritual principle” in man, our innate purpose and drive towards God Whom only man of all creatures can know. The experiences of life and our bodies that are not spiritual (i.e. perfect), such as death, evil, sickness, chaos, aging, etc. are felt by our soul, but not truly known. I have heard many elderly people say that even though their body ages, in their mind they feel the same as they ever did. Humans alone are capable of saying this, because our essence - our soul - is timeless. Only by submitting ourselves to this world, to sin, can we succumb to spiritual death as well (Hell).

Also as you pointed out, our relativity as well as our objectivity allows us to distinguish ourselves from God. Relativity lets us see our own human limitation and finitude, while our objectivity allows us to perceive the infinite Divinity of God through Creation and Revelation. I believe this capacity for distinction is the root of all religion, which is based in a sense of our own weakness, the need for salvation, and the necessity of an vicarious sacrifice of purity, ideas present in almost all religions.

All very interesting ideas. So, to sum up, it seems that the properties of man that make us persons and connote our spiritual soul, and that which cannot be identified by science, are our individuality/relativity and our capacity for objectivity. Neurology may be able to see how certain parts of the brain can accomodate these attributes, but there cannot be a physical basis for individuality or objectivity, since both of these go beyond the limited physical body and thus cannot derive from it, just as God cannot have “emerged” from nature.

God bless, and happy All Saints Day. 🙂
 
Also as you pointed out, our relativity as well as our objectivity allows us to distinguish ourselves from God. Relativity lets us see our own human limitation and finitude, while our objectivity allows us to perceive the infinite Divinity of God through Creation and Revelation. I believe this capacity for distinction is the root of all religion, which is based in a sense of our own weakness, the need for salvation, and the necessity of an vicarious sacrifice of purity, ideas present in almost all religions.

God bless, and happy All Saints Day. 🙂
Amazing babble.
Spiritual soul and material anatomy are so much easier to understand.

One final word about the root of all religion. The root of religion does not reside in our relativity, our subjectivity, our objectivity, our individuality, in short, ourselves.

The root of religion is God Himself.
 
As I understand it, subjectivity does not arise from our bodies, but from our psyche.

What is physical is objective, and the human body is purely physical. Gravity works the same way whoever observes it. A hot metal floor feels the same to whoever puts their bare feet on it. A compass points the same way for anybody who holds it.

It’s in the psychological areas that subjectivity arises. Beauty is subjective: therefore people like different art forms. Philosophical “truth” is subjective: therefore you have differing beliefs and “isms.” The sense of justice is subjective, therefore the general society operates a court system to balance out competing claims.

Subjectivity resides in the soul not body.

ICXC NIKA
 
All of these distinctions are necessary to address the point of this thread … all the operations of the human being are dependent, not on the brain or the biological body, but on the person. You can’t assign some activities to the brain and other activities to the “soul” … it’s all of whole cloth
Bad phrasing on my part … I should have said that all the activities of the human body (cognitive and non-cognitive) are the activities of the person … the person is the living human body … just like when you see a portrait painting, you just don’t see the paint, you see the portrait … in a sense, there is no difference between the paint and portrait … so too there is no difference between the person and his/her body … we do not steer our bodies like a pilot steers a ship … we are the ship itself … which is self-steering … there is no res cogitans separate from the res extensa … there are not two res, two things … just one person … who is not a thing … but who is a “personal” body … with a dynamic structure or nature… i.e., a form also referred to as “soul” … that can be instantiated in a number of individual human beings … but which is not the “person” …

“Soul” answers the “what” or “sortal” question; “who” answers the “person” question.
 
As I understand it, subjectivity does not arise from our bodies, but from our psyche.

What is physical is objective, and the human body is purely physical. Gravity works the same way whoever observes it. A hot metal floor feels the same to whoever puts their bare feet on it. A compass points the same way for anybody who holds it.

It’s in the psychological areas that subjectivity arises. Beauty is subjective: therefore people like different art forms. Philosophical “truth” is subjective: therefore you have differing beliefs and “isms.” The sense of justice is subjective, therefore the general society operates a court system to balance out competing claims.

Subjectivity resides in the soul not body.

ICXC NIKA
The human person, a unique unification of spirit and matter, is worthy of profound respect. This is an objective, universal truth.
 
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