The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

I think the tree of the knowledge of good and evil had a good purpose – but that God was waiting for humanity to be mature enough to use it appropriately. So while I do believe that the tree was indeed a literal tree, I also believe that the literal tree was also used symbolically too.

In other words, it seems to me that the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil may have been some type of seed similar to two species of Mexican morning glory vines, or perhaps some other kind of tree or plant in which the fruit/grain of this vine actually had something within it called ergot.

When we look to ergot, we see a parasitic fungus that attacks wheat, barley, rye and many wild and cultiavted grasses. Ergot attacks the grain of the plant – long purple structures of the fungus called sclerotia form in place of the seeds of the host plant.

Note the similarity to the Scriptural account, "…but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."

Indeed, if Adam and Eve contrated some form of gangrene from consuming the fruit, then there bodies would surely begin to die from within. In fact, they would start to immediately die – but it would take some time before the gangrene would overtake their “perfect bodies” and they would die.

If Adam and Eve somehow passed this gangrenous condition genetically to each generation thereafter (like a disease), we would probably see a gradual drop in the life-span of Adam’s roughly 900-something years to man’s current state of around 70 years on average.

Known as “St. Anthony’s Fire,” ergotism was a dreaded disease in Europe. Another form of ergot poisoning involves severe hallucinations and madness, caused by pschoactive alkaloids in the sclerotia.

Now, when we look at all this, we can easilly see a good reason not to eat this. However, does this mean that the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was totally corrupt?

If I’m correct with using the ergot analogy, I don’t think it is.

Continuing with the ergot analogy we see that a number of important medical discoveries have come from the study of ergot fungus and ergotism.

For example, in 1935 the alkaloid ergonovine was isolated from ergot. Since it causes strong muscular contractions, it has been used to induce labor and to control hemmorrhaging.

Note the similarity to the Scriptural announcement:

To the woman he said,

“I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing;
with pain you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you.”

As another example, the alkaloid ergotamine has been used extensively to relieve migraine headaches through the constriction of blood vessels.

Note the similarity to the Scriptural announcement:

To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat of it,’

"Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat of it
all the days of your life…

In fact, interestingly enough, thousands of pounds of ergot sclerotia are harvested each year from midwestern rye farms, and are used for various prescription drugs.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

It is fascintating to note that in 1943 chemist Albert Hofmann was studying ergot fungus, whose nuclei contain lysergic acid. When he added diethylamide he produced lysergic acid diethylamide, better known as LSD.

While working on this new compound, Hoffman discovered that its strong hallucinogenic effects were similar to that of natural lysergic acid alkaloids in the seeds of “ololiuqui,” morning glories used by the Aztecs in their religious ceremonies.

Hoffman’s diary notes some interesting comments concerning his “self-experiment”:

"Here the notes in my laboratory journal cease. I was able to write the last words only with great effort. By now it was already clear to me that LSD had been the cause of the remarkable experience of the previous Friday, for the altered perceptions were of the same type as before, only much more intense.

I had to struggle to speak intelligibly. I asked my laboratory assistant, who was informed of the self-experiment, to escort me home. We went by bicycle, no automobile being available because of wartime restrictions on their use.

On the way home, my condition began to assume threatening forms. Everything in my field of vision wavered and was distorted as if seen in a curved mirror. I also had the sensation of being unable to move from the spot. Nevertheless, my assistant later told me that we had traveled very rapidly.

Finally, we arrived at home safe and sound, and I was just barely capable of asking my companion to summon our family doctor and request milk from the neighbors.

The dizziness and sensation of fainting became so strong at times that I could no longer hold myself erect, and had to lie down on a sofa. My surroundings had now transformed themselves in more terrifying ways. Everything in the room spun around, and the familiar objects and pieces of furniture assumed grotesque, threatening forms. They were in continuous motion, animated, as if driven by an inner restlessness.

The lady next door, whom I scarcely recognized, brought me milk - in the course of the evening I drank more than two liters. She was no longer Mrs. R., but rather a malevolent, insidious witch with a colored mask."

One might again note a possible similarity to the Scriptureal announcment:

When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.

Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the LORD God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the LORD God among the trees of the garden.

When one considers that many religions around the world, including some of those that surrounded the ancient Israelites, did in fact use these kinds of halucinagenic drugs in order to discern “divine secrets” and “magical revelations” from the spirit world, it seems to me that Adam and Eve’s encounter bears a striking similarity to these same pagan drug-induced experiences.

In other words, our primal parents seemed to have their eyes opened to some type of horrifying and ungodly thoughts, thoughts that were so terribly evil that they felt they had to hide from God after their encounter with this supposed mystical revelation which the serpent exposed them to.

It is interesting to note that the word for sorcery in the Scriptures is sometime distinguished by the word pharmicia…

“At the end of times the merchants of the word will deceive the nations of the world through their Pharmacia.” (sorcery)

The Book of the Apocalypse 18:23

Another question that comes up is what about the fallen angels?

When did they fall?

Were they involved in this at all?

I tend to think that the eyes of Adam and Eve being “opened” ripped open their spiritual defenses to the point that the adversary could then infiltrate their thoughts and slay their trust in God.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Sources…


Lysergic Acid Diethylamide - LSD

 

[LittleRose]

Another question that comes up is what about the fallen angels?

When did they fall?

Were they involved in this at all?

If you ask John Milton, it was shortly after the creation of the world, but Milton is not exactly an authority on the matter.

I tend to think that the eyes of Adam and Eve being “opened” ripped open their spiritual defenses to the point that the adversary could then infiltrate their thoughts and slay their trust in God.

He already infiltrated their thoughts before they tasted the fruit. The Fruit just made it worse.

The point of the fall is that Adam and Eve got a bit too full of themselves, and tried to make themselves into more than what God had created them to be. The consequences were that their nature was twisted and diminished, instead.

Lucifer’s fall was similar in nature–he got a bit to big for his britches and wanted to be God’s equal, not His servant. Since he cannot do this, he works to corrupt or destroy what God made, out of envy of God’s sovereign power to create.

 

[Malcolm_McLean]

I think the tree of the knowledge of good and evil had a good purpose – but that God was waiting for humanity to be mature enough to use it appropriately. So while I do believe that the tree was indeed a literal tree, I also believe that the literal tree was also used symbolically too.

Now, when we look at all this, we can easilly see a good reason not to eat this. However, does this mean that the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was totally corrupt?

If I’m correct with using the ergot analogy, I don’t think it is.

I know where this is going.

JESUS WAS A MUSHROOM!

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

He already infiltrated their thoughts before they tasted the fruit. The Fruit just made it worse.

The point of the fall is that Adam and Eve got a bit too full of themselves, and tried to make themselves into more than what God had created them to be. The consequences were that their nature was twisted and diminished, instead.

Lucifer’s fall was similar in nature–he got a bit to big for his britches and wanted to be God’s equal, not His servant. Since he cannot do this, he works to corrupt or destroy what God made, out of envy of God’s sovereign power to create.

I agree with you.

But I was looking more for the possible symbolism behind the tree of knowledge itself. It seems as though the serpent in addition to the tree of knowledge of good and evil were symbolic of the pagan sorceries and that would later attempt to say that God’s truth was a lie.

Likewise, I think the literal event recorded in Genesis may have displayed symbolic and spiritual allegories which were recorded in nearly every culture around the world.

For example, theologians have noted similarities in primitive beliefs in an All-Powerful God. On the subject of human religion, some scholars have claimed that human history exhibits an evolution in religion – from tribal gods to monotheism. These results, however, have been largely turned on their head.

Contrary to this ‘evolutionary’ position, the lifetime work of Wilhelm Schmidt (published in his Origin and Growth of Religion: English Ed. 1931) found that, thoughout the world, primitive cultures have a notion of a supreme god. This god has the following characteristics - remarkably uniformly across the world:

He lives in, or above, the sky – anthropologists refer to him as the “Sky-God”, although the name the peoples have for him is more commonly one meaning “Father” or “Creator”.

He is like a man, or a father.

However his form cannot be physically represented, and so there are almost never idols of him.

He is the creator of everything.

He is eternal (i.e. He existed before anything else, and He will never cease to be).

He is all-knowing.

All that is good ultimately comes from him.

He is the giver of moral law.

He is good, and abhors all evil.

He is all-powerful.

He judges people after their death.

People are alienated from him due to some misdemeanor in the past.

In tracing human history, it is generally believed that the primal knowledge of the Lord was often supplanted in religions by concepts of gods which are “more accessible.” In doing such, the gradual monotheistic knowledge of a monotheistic God seems to deteriorate into a pantheon of divinities whose attirbutes seems to be defined more by nature and/or human characteristics.

Even still, despite this supposed deterioration, these religions often carry a distant memory of this “Sky-God” whom they have lost most contact with.

He is sometimes, on the surface, either perceived as 1) no longer caring or 2) so omniscient – since he already hears and sees everything – that there is no reason to talk to him.

More specifically, with further inviestigation, he is often referred to as Father. Within this paternal context, he is generally conceived in one of three ways; either as 1) a transcendent principle of divine order; 2) a senile or impotent deity who has been replaced by a set of other, more active and involved gods; or finally 3) he has become so remote, having removed himself so far from human affairs, that he is all but forgotten.

The obvious response to all these traits, when presented more respectably, is, “Where have I heard that before?” The more obvious answers is that it sounds suspiciously like the Christian, Hebrew and Muslim concept of God.

It becomes, in the minds of many catholics, even clearer when one notes the various concepts expressed in religions around the world. As many critics have noted, there are many pre-Christian religions and philosophies which teach doctrines which bear a striking resemblance to doctrines within the church.

Although some similarities are certainly hyperbole or exaggeration of the part of the critic, such as most of those commonly attributed to the cult of Mithras, there are yet certainly more than a fair share of similarities to Christianity expressed in some ancient religions.

When applicable, the Catholic Church tends to view these similarities in the sense of a kind of dialectic process leading to the re-emergeance of a faith that once existed in its fullness in the beginning but was lost to our first two parents long ago.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

I know where this is going.

JESUS WAS A MUSHROOM!

Buh?

No.

**JESUS CHRIST IS ****GOD BECOME MAN: **
THE INCARNATION

---

CHRIST DIED FOR US:
THE REDEMPTION

CHRIST ROSE FROM THE DEAD:
THE RESURRECTION

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

I know where this is going.

JESUS WAS A MUSHROOM!

Ok. I think I see where you were going with this.

No. I’m not talking about Jesus being nothing more than an acidic hullucination by his followers consuming ‘magic mushrooms’.

I’m talking about Wilhelm Schmidt, a Jesuit professor at the University of Vienna, who spent over 40 years (1912-1955) documenting and compiling evidence for what he called “primitive monotheism.”

In 1931 he published his findings as The Origin and Growth of Religion. It was a book that revolutionized the study of religious anthropology.

Schmidt thought that such beliefs were the residue of a “primal revelation” of God to man. He felt that they were surviving forms of a once common knowledge of the one God (which through human fallenness and error has been overlaid by magic, animism, ancestor worship, spiritism, polytheism, and other forms of spiritual subjectivism). Schmidt continued to validate his thesis with continual research over the years. By 1955 he had published over 4000 pages of evidence in 12 large volumes.

G. K. Chesterton summed up the import of Schmidt’s ground-breaking studies:

Primitive theologies of the one God always seemed to include some explanation of why He is no longer present. His departure is routinely regarded as a cosmic disastrous rupture in the natural fabric of things brought on by some fault or failure on the part of human beings. In some myths, the fault seems almost trivial, involving a technical error in the performance of some (now) obscure ritual, thus causing the universe to unravel and leave man spiritually marooned. In other forms of primitive monotheism, the failure is more morally serious, involving man’s betrayal of his duty to his creator, thus causing God to depart in sorrow and judgment.

The details differ, but all the myths tell a common story, and the story seems to be clearly a part of our common heritage.

Ironically, the evidence of anthropology indicates that ancient man was more in agreement concerning the nature of our spiritual problem than we have agreed about anything since that time. The reason is seems (to me) doubtless that their consensus was one of memory and not of opinion.

Schmidt’s work actually uncovered one momentous fact for all to see – namely, that humanity’s most ancient and universal assessment of its own condition is simply this: “God is not with us.” For whatever reason, God’s personal presence has been withdrawn from us. God’s absence is our problem.

Basically what I see is a diaspora of some original form of primitive monotheism. The reason why I say this is because massive evidence has been collected among many peoples since the discovery in the 19th century of an unsuspected belief in “one supreme being, All-Father”.

continued…

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

…continued.

As just one example, consider the Kurnai in Australia. These kinds of discoveries, among many, revolutionized modern scholarly understanding of primitive religion in two ways:

First, many of the peoples which had been thought to have no concept of religion at all were discovered instead to embrace belief in a single, all powerful deity. In fact, such peoples actually had a sophisticated religion, but it simply lacked public rituals.

The theology in such cases was esoteric and in general it was something that was not to be spoken of to outsiders. Many reports, therefore, of primitive religions, had been limited to the observation of the external details of cult practice, but the existence of the High God challenged the adequacy of such reports and suggested that, in many cases, if the observer himself had not been “initiated” his report was not to be trusted.

Secondly, and of even greater significance, the discovery of the High God concept among primitive peoples challenged the popular 19th century theory of the evolution of religion from animism (belief in souls in humans and other aspects of nature) to polytheism to monotheism. Instead, a devolutionary approach seemed to be the more reasonable.

To clarify what I am trying to convey, consider the following:

Africa
The Akan, Ashanti, Ga, Fante, and related people of Ghana and the Ivory Coast believe the universe was created by a supreme deity variously known as Oboadee (Creator), Nyame (God), or Ananse Kokuroko (The Great Spider). Nyambe, in particular, was considered the supreme being and creator god. Wide-spread over Western Equatorial Africa, his variant names included: Nzambi, Ndyambi, Dzambu, Tsambi, Yame, Sami, Zam, Monzam, Onayame. Also known as Nyambi, he was considered the creator of all things whose wife was Nailele. They lived on earth for a time but left to avoid the evil actions of Kamunu.

---

Australia
The Australian mystery-rites reveal a moral creative being whose home is in or above the heavens, and his name is Maker (Baiame), Master (Biamban) and Father (Papang). The Benedictine monks of Australia say that the natives believe in an omnipotent Being, the creator of heaven and earth, whom they call Motogon. The Australian will say, “No, not seen him *, but I have felt him”.

---

China
Long ago before the introduction of Buddhism from India and the advent of Taoism, the Chinese believed in Shang Ti, a God so great that no images were to be made to represent it and the one true God who made the heavens, the earth, and all that is in both. This supreme god ruled over lesser gods of the sun, the moon, the wind, the rain, and other natural forces and places. Shang-Ti also regulated human affairs as well as ruling over the material universe.

---

Egypt
In the most ancient monuments of Egypt the simplest and most precise conception of one God is expressed. For example, the Egyptian Book of the Dead demonstrates that the Egyptian people originally believed in one great God and not many. He is one and alone; no other beings are with Him; He is the only being living in truth; He is the self-existing one who made all things, and He alone has not been made.

---

India
In the Rig-Veda, the most ancient of the Hindu sacred books, traces of a primitive monotheism are clearly shown. The Deity is called “the only existing being” who breathed, calmly self-contained, in the beginning before there was sky or atmosphere day or night, light or darkness. This being is not the barren philosophical entity found in the later Upanishads, for he is called “our Father”, “our Creator”, omniscient, who listens to prayers.

---

Iranian
The Gathas, the most ancient hymns of the Avesta, form the kernel about which the sacred literature of the Iranians clustered in an aftergrowth. They inculcate belief in Ahura Mazda, the self-existent omnipotent being. He is the all-powerful Lord who made heaven and earth, and all that is therein, and who governs everything with wisdom.

---

American
The Algonquin Indians of North America believe in Kitcki Manitou - The Great Spirit, the Supreme Being. He is known as The Uncreated, the Father of Life, God of the Winds. The Great Spirit is present in some way in nearly every North American Indian mythology.

---

continued…

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

…continued.

Consequently, there are actually at least two books within the Scriptures which seem to indicate the Hebrews encounters with the “primitive sky god”.

For example:

The Book of Job Job may be pre-Mosaic in origin, even possibly Arabic in authorship, dating from the second Millennium BC. Although certainly God-breathed, Job seems to reflect a non-Hebraic cultural background. However, his advanced age coupled with a patriarchal family-clan organization suggests the time of Abraham rather than after the Exodus.

The name of Job has been dated as far back as c. 2000 BC. due to its record within the the Egyptian Execration texts. It is clear that Job attests to the awesome sovereignty of God and concludes that he is worthy of love apart from the blessings he provides.

Also, within the definitive Hebrew Scriptures we see a “pagan” worshipping the Most High God?

Then Melchizedek king of Salem [Jerusalem] brought out bread and wine. He was priest of God Most High, and he blessed Abram, saying,

“Blessed be Abram by God Most High, Creator of heaven and earth.
And blessed be God Most High, who delivered your enemies into your hand.”

Then Abram gave him a tenth of everything. Genesis 14: 18-20 (NIV)

Dr. Wilhelm Schmidt actually set out in the 1920’s to compile every “alias of the Almighty” discovered by explorers around the world. A minimum of a thousand more examples have come to light since then.

In short, an approximate 90 percent or more of the folk religions on this planet contain clear acknowledgment of the existence of one Supreme God.

Schmidt’s classic “Der Ursprung der Gottesidee” (The Origin of the Concept of God) was actually published back in 1934.

If you haven’t already done so, if you can read German, I would advise you to check it out sometime when you have a chance.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Anybody?

 

[Valke2]

Anybody?

So you are saying that there is a kind of genetic shared memory about the Garden of Eden story? (I’m too tired to read through all the posts tonight. Sorry).

A belief in something greater than ourselves seems to also be a shared belief.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

So you are saying that there is a kind of genetic shared memory about the Garden of Eden story? (I’m too tired to read through all the posts tonight. Sorry).

A belief in something greater than ourselves seems to also be a shared belief.

Basically, yes.

I think the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was, using the symbol of hallucinagenic plants, symbolic of pagan sorceries that go in contrast to God’s will.

God was essentially asking our primordial parents to choose life in him or else death in the pagan gods-- more specifically, evil pagan gods which often employed the serpentine symbol as their figurine of deity.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

As far as revealing the characteristics of God through the religious dialectic of human history, I guess I think in terms of the discovery of electromagnetism when dealing with this.

Consider the following information.

It’s well known today that actual discovery of electromagnetism was made during a lecture demonstration that Oersted was conducting for advanced students during the spring of 1820.

Interestingly enough, it is perhaps the only case known in the history of science when a major scientific discovery was made in front of a classroom of students-- and yet there is still a bit of confusion in regards to how this actually came about (one might note the similarity of this confusion to the phenomena of “apparently” conflicting reports among religious writers in regards to the very same experience).

As the article remarks, precise details of the discovery are not completely available. All that we have are three accounts by Oersted himself and scattered remarks of students, none of which agrees at every point with the others.

Oersted, for example, speaks in his account from 1821 as if he were deliberately testing the effect of an electric current on a magnetic needle, but a student account asserts that the experiment concerned the heating of some platinum wire by means of an electric current, and that a compass needle happened by chance to be underneath the conducting wire.

continued…

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

…continued.

Another unexplained aspect of the story is Oersted’s delay in pursuing the discovery for three months after the lecture.

As the article notes, what follows is the earliest account Oersted composed.
Oersted:

Since for a long time I had regarded the forces which manifest themselves in electricity as the general forces of nature, I had to derive the magnetic effects from them also. As proof that I accepted this consequence completely, I can cite the following passage from my Recherches sur l’identité des forces chimiques et électriques, printed at Paris, 1813. “It must be tested whether electricity in its most latent state has any action on the magnet as such.”

I wrote this during a journey, so that I could not easily undertake the experiments; not to mention that the way to make them was not at all clear to me at that time, all my attention being applied to the development of a system of chemistry. I still remember that, somewhat inconsistently, I expected the predicted effect particularly from the discharge of a large electric battery and moreover only hoped for a weak magnetic effect.

Therefore I did not pursue with proper zeal the thoughts I had conceived; I was brought back to them through my lectures on electricity, galvanism, and magnetism in the spring of 1820. The auditors were mostly men already considerably advanced in science; so these lectures and the preparatory reflections led me on to deeper investigations than those which are admissible in ordinary lectures.

Thus my former conviction of the identity of electrical and magnetic forces developed with new clarity, and I resolved to test my opinion by experiment. The preparations for this were made on a day in which I had to give a lecture the same evening.

I there showed Canton’s experiment on the influence of chemical effects on the magnetic state of iron. I called attention to the variations of the magnetic needle during a thunderstorm, and at the same time I set forth the conjecture that an electric discharge could act on a magnetic needle placed outside the galvanic circuit.

I then resolved to make the experiment. Since I expected the greatest effect from a discharge associated with incandescence, I inserted in the circuit a very fine platinum wire above the place where the needle was located. The effect was certainly unmistakable, but still it seemed to me so confused that I postponed further investigation to a time when I hoped to have more leisure.

At the beginning of July these experiments were resumed and continued without interruption until I arrived at the results which have been published.

What is it that Oersted had discovered?

continued…

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

…continued.

Through persistent and repeated efforts subsequent to the classroom experience Oersted clarified the precise nature of the effect a wire conducting electricity had on a magnetic compass. He found that a wire carrying an electric current affected a magnetic needle located below the wire by causing it to swerve to a position perpendicular to the wire.

But there were a lot of observations in regards to electricity and magnetism throughout human history well before this realization occured. A brief synopsis of these observations just prior to and during Oersted’s time can be found here. And a general outline of the observations of humanity throughout the past can be found here – and a more detailed breakdown can be found here with the inclusion of optics.

The point that I’m trying to emphasise that is that cultures were aware of many aspects related to electromagnetism well before its unification. Now perhaps these cultures were only aware of the the charateristics that manifested their own social personalities so to speak, picking up only on the charateristics which reflected their own philosophical outlook. However, nothwithstanding these observations, it still took time for the various cultures of humanity to converge, effectively pooling their resources before the epipahny came out in one eureka moment that all these different effects related to electricity and magnetism were actually part of the very same phenomena.

Theologically speaking, from my own anthropomorphic point of view, it seems to me that humankind’s return to a long forgotten God is retracing a process similar to the discovery of electromagnetism-- all aspects which were formely thought to be distinct and unrelated (and yet were found to be in agreement regardless of cultural bias) are most likely actually part of the very same phenomena: ie., God.