The Tribulation

[climer97007]

Where did you get non-catholics are following the same bloody error-filled way as Judas?

Do not boast over the broken branches or be ignorant of the mystery that there is a day coming when all godlessness will be taken from Jacob when the deliverer comes from Zion.

Until then, it is far better to come to Jesus Christ now. If a Jew takes the chance now to wait and see the Messiah…they will have to survive some tough times ahead.

The Gospel is to the Jew first, then the Gentile.

I really could not follow most of you post. I clipped a few things that I may or may not understand.

There is a whole movement of non-Catholic fundamentalist Christians who are working behind the scenes to re-establish animal sacrifices in Israel. Why? Because they have no idea what an abomination this will be to our dear Lord, who is already coming to us in the sacrament of Holy Eucharist. These Christians are so deceived, it is not really very funny, and they are being used politically for other means, just like Judas.

Then the deliverer comes from Zion. Yes, this is Jesus who came from Zion 2,000 years ago. No mystery here except to the remaining unbelieving Jews, and to a few really confused non-catholic Christian denominations.

Peter suffered some pretty tough times, and so did Paul. So are the Christians in communist Russia and communist China, and in Muslim Africa, and in Muslim Asia, and, and, and. Being a Christian now does not excempt anyone from going through some pretty tough times. This is the trial and tribulation that every Christian is called to endure. This is the whole point of Jesus as he says “Take up your cross, and follow me”.

The Gospel already was first to the jews, and then to the Gentiles. This is past tense. Though there may still be a few pockets of humanity who may still have had no chance to hear the Gospel. So, this is not some as yet future event.

I suspect that you too have been deceived like many into the lure of these false teachings concerning the End Times. Be careful, and discerning. Be aware. The day is coming like a thief, and has been upon every age until now.

Gene

 

[climer97007]

You are hinting at something here that I don’t understand. What is going on with the Masons and what is the event you refer to? Thanks.

If you look at Masonry, it is just like looking at Satanism. No satanic cult is trying to undermine a non-Catholic Church. These churches are already undermined from satans point of view. They have already been stripped of everything that matters, Christ himself, His abiding presence in the eucharist. And it is the same with Masonry.

The only people in the entire world standing consistantly headlong against the progress and destruction proposed by masonry is Catholicism and Orthodoxy, and of these two Catholicism is the largest. And so it is that the target head-pin in the spiritual bowling match is Roman Catholicism. No president, no dictator, no king, no principality or power has authority over the Catholic Church except God.

So, how does satan enter into the mix? Enter the Bloodbath of a civil war when the German Princes used Luther’s 95 thesis as a pretext for a way to separate themselves from the Authority of the Catholic Church. Luther, like Judas, was used unwittingly as a pawn for other ends.

Now follow this pattern through to the Protestant reformation and you will see this same format, this same image, imprinted on the pages of the French Revolution. On the fall of the Anglican communion into disarray. It is perverse and pervasive. And the only force even attempting to hold back the powers that be in this world, is the Catholic Church.

I am painting with a deliberately wide brush here. Of course there are exceptions. I am speaking of generalities here, of spiritual forces, and of prudence unknown when you don’t really know what is happening in the world and why.

Ever ask yourself why books, and Hollywood films only mock Catholics? Why almost every doomsday plot involves a priest or the Catholic Church in some subversive and innaccurate way? You will never see this involving baptists, or pentecostals, or anglicans, or lutherans. They are already accounted for as lost as far as satan is concerned, and Masons are simply a motive body with closed doors where all such plots can be spoken of openly.

Let him who has ears, hear.

Gene

 

[Springkeeper]

If you look at Masonry, it is just like looking at Satanism. No satanic cult is trying to undermine a non-Catholic Church. These churches are already undermined from satans point of view. They have already been stripped of everything that matters, Christ himself, His abiding presence in the eucharist. And it is the same with Masonry.

The only people in the entire world standing consistantly headlong against the progress and destruction proposed by masonry is Catholicism and Orthodoxy, and of these two Catholicism is the largest.

In my church there are Masons and their children belong to the Mason children’s groups and they actively try to recuit church members and youth to join thier groups. I don’t “put my foot down” with my husband but in the case of our children attending anything Masonic I was adament that they not do so. I seem to be the only one there who has a problem with that group. All the other Baptists seem to think they are just wonderful.

 

[climer97007]

In my church there are Masons and their children belong to the Mason children’s groups and they actively try to recuit church members and youth to join thier groups. I don’t “put my foot down” with my husband but in the case of our children attending anything Masonic I was adament that they not do so. I seem to be the only one there who has a problem with that group. All the other Baptists seem to think they are just wonderful.

This is very common, especially among anti-Catholic christian sects. And this is normal at the lower levels of recruiting. No one at the lowest levels has any idea what is going on at the highest. It is much like a military need-to-know sort of organization. As one progresses up the ladder, one is initiated into more and more involvement, and more and more secrecy. You do not ask to be elevated. You are only asked if-when they think they can trust you, and it is very diabolical the higher up you go.

The lower levels are there for fund raising, for parades, and for the appearance of innocence necessary for acceptance and fundraising. Only a very small amount of funds go towards childrens hospitals. Every supported institution that they brag about is what appears to be. It is all designed as part of the deception. This we understand from those who have come out of this beast, who have awakened at some point of their journey. It is very hard to extricate yourself once you have given yourself into it. It is the nature of temptation and sin itself.

Gene

 

[Lev23]

I really could not follow most of you post. I clipped a few things that I may or may not understand.

There is a whole movement of non-Catholic fundamentalist Christians who are working behind the scenes to re-establish animal sacrifices in Israel. Why? Because they have no idea what an abomination this will be to our dear Lord, who is already coming to us in the sacrament of Holy Eucharist. These Christians are so deceived, it is not really very funny, and they are being used politically for other means, just like Judas.

Then the deliverer comes from Zion. Yes, this is Jesus who came from Zion 2,000 years ago. No mystery here except to the remaining unbelieving Jews, and to a few really confused non-catholic Christian denominations.

Peter suffered some pretty tough times, and so did Paul. So are the Christians in communist Russia and communist China, and in Muslim Africa, and in Muslim Asia, and, and, and. Being a Christian now does not excempt anyone from going through some pretty tough times. This is the trial and tribulation that every Christian is called to endure. This is the whole point of Jesus as he says “Take up your cross, and follow me”.

I don’t know why so many today equate taking the Gospel to the Jew first and the signifigance of Israel in the last days prophecies with Church involvement of political Temple rebuilding. When it comes to 3rd temple business, you might be speaking of a couple TV evangelists, but I just don’t see this “whole movement” thing you are referring to.

In addition to coming back for those who wait for Him, Jesus will come back to Israel just like prophecy of scripture says he will. In Luke 4, Jesus reads Isaiah 61:1-2 to the Jews in the synagogue in Nazerath and stops in a middle of a verse, to announce all he read was fulfilled that day in their ears. Now go back and read the rest of Isaiah 61, starting with verse 2 where Jesus left off. Jesus will come back to Israel again to “proclaim the day of vengeance of our God”.

As far as suffering through tough times, I was speaking of unsaved Jews, not believers. I am quite aware of how Christians can suffer here now for our Lord. But I was specifically referring to unsaved Jews. You go on about Masonry/Hollywood/etc conspiracies. So be it. But in the last days, unsaved Israel will have to go through their own sin problems, as well as the prophesized sin of the nations for hating Israel and dividing their land, which will be addressed by Jesus at His second coming.

**Joel 3:1-3
"In those days and at that time,
when I restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem,
I will gather all nations
and bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat.
There I will enter into judgment against them
concerning my inheritance, my people Israel,
for they scattered my people among the nations
and divided up my land.

They cast lots for my people
and traded boys for prostitutes;
they sold girls for wine
that they might drink.**

In light of last day prophecies concerning Israel, how can one say the Gospel to the Jew first is a thing of the past?

The Gospel already was first to the jews, and then to the Gentiles. This is past tense. Though there may still be a few pockets of humanity who may still have had no chance to hear the Gospel. So, this is not some as yet future event.

I suspect that you too have been deceived like many into the lure of these false teachings concerning the End Times. Be careful, and discerning. Be aware. The day is coming like a thief, and has been upon every age until now.

Gene

And it should be in every generation until Christ comes back for His Church. Is what St.Paul states here in the “past tense” also?

Romans 11:11-12
Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring!

Are there any more riches that can be brought in if Jews come into the Church? Is not a gentile who comes into the Church today made one new man in Christ WITH the Jews?

The fact that the Jew and Gentile are made one new man in Christ means that taking the Gospel to the Jew first, like it was since the beginning of the Church, should still be practiced in all generations.

Like the Gentile nations of all generations of the Church, Israel as well has poor, hungry, persecuted and meek people who need to hear the Gospel. It is far better for them to suffer with Christ and His Church now than to suffer without Him in the tribulation. In no way is this being deceived about the end times.

 

[REESE_HOWELL]

last week we had over 150 earthquakes over 4.5 look at the signs to see the time we live in

 

[climer97007]

I don’t know why so many today equate taking the Gospel to the Jew first and the signifigance of Israel in the last days prophecies with Church involvement of political Temple rebuilding. When it comes to 3rd temple business, you might be speaking of a couple TV evangelists, but I just don’t see this “whole movement” thing you are referring to.

Indeed, there are countless Evangelists hawking this nonsense. I get postcards from no less than three churches in my neighborhood alone who are trying to get me to go to their church to learn all about the end times, about how the messiah is coming to setup his kingdom in Israel.

In addition to coming back for those who wait for Him, Jesus will come back to Israel just like prophecy of scripture says he will. In Luke 4, Jesus reads Isaiah 61:1-2 to the Jews in the synagogue in Nazerath and stops in a middle of a verse, to announce all he read was fulfilled that day in their ears. Now go back and read the rest of Isaiah 61, starting with verse 2 where Jesus left off. Jesus will come back to Israel again to “proclaim the day of vengeance of our God”.

Actually, in the NAB, Isaiah 61:2 says: “To announce a year of favor from the LORD and a day of vindication by our God, to comfort all who mourn;” A year of favor and a day of vindication is not exactly “a day of vengeance of our God”. This time of favor, this time of vindication is the Kingdom of God in Christ, then and now. In this sense, this is past, present and future tense. And the non-Catholic churches like yourself are waiting for something that is already here, and not unlike the Jews of Jesus time, you just don’t get it.

But in the last days, unsaved Israel will have to go through their own sin problems, as well as the prophesized sin of the nations for hating Israel and dividing their land, which will be addressed by Jesus at His second coming.

Joel 3:1-3
"In those days and at that time, when I restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem, I will gather all nations and bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat. There I will enter into judgment against them concerning my inheritance, my people Israel, for they scattered my people among the nations and divided up my land. They cast lots for my people and traded boys for prostitutes; they sold girls for wine that they might drink.

In light of last day prophecies concerning Israel, how can one say the Gospel to the Jew first is a thing of the past?

Wow! Here is the same quote from Joel 3:1-4 from the NAB: “Then afterward I will pour out my spirit upon all mankind. Your sons and daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions; Even upon the servants and the handmaids, in those days, I will pour out my spirit. And I will work wonders in the heavens and on the earth, blood, fire, and columns of smoke; The sun will be turned to darkness, and the moon to blood, At the coming of the Day of the LORD, the great and terrible day.”

This is the same verse quoted by St. Peter in reference to the Day of Pentecost when the Holy Spirit was poured out on the Apostles. Again, and again, you simply do not get it. The Kingdom of God that Jesus announced, the day of favor, the day of vindication, the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, this is all past, present and future tense in the Kingdom of God made present in Christ, in his Body, which is the Church. The day the sun was darkened? The one and same day that Christ was crucified. Read the Gospels. It is all there.

And it should be in every generation until Christ comes back for His Church. Is what St.Paul states here in the “past tense” also?

Romans 11:11-12 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring!

The notes in the NAB put it this way: “The unbelief of the Jews has paved the way for the preaching of the gospel to the Gentiles and for their easier acceptance of it outside the context of Jewish culture. Through his mission to the Gentiles Paul also hopes to fill his fellow Jews with jealousy. Hence he hastens to fill the entire Mediterranean world with the gospel. Once all the Gentile nations have heard the gospel, Israel as a whole is expected to embrace it. This will be tantamount to resurrection of the dead, that is, the reappearance of Jesus Christ with all the believers at the end of time.” Now the key here in this understanding is at the end of time. Not some time when Jesus comes to rule on earth as a political King, rather, at His 2nd Coming when He comes with the whole Church in judgement. There is indeed an element of truth in what you propose, just not the same as what you are proposing.

The fact that the Jew and Gentile are made one new man in Christ means that taking the Gospel to the Jew first, like it was since the beginning of the Church, should still be practiced in all generations.

Like the Gentile nations of all generations of the Church, Israel as well has poor, hungry, persecuted and meek people who need to hear the Gospel. It is far better for them to suffer with Christ and His Church now than to suffer without Him in the tribulation. In no way is this being deceived about the end times.

I agree here. It is better to suffer persecution in Christ, because of Christian faith, then to suffer under the judgement of the rejection of Christ. This is as true today as it was 2,000 years ago, and just as true tomorrow and at the end of time.

Gene

 

[Lev23]

Indeed, there are countless Evangelists hawking this nonsense. I get postcards from no less than three churches in my neighborhood alone who are trying to get me to go to their church to learn all about the end times, about how the messiah is coming to setup his kingdom in Israel.

St.Peter, after speaking of their witness of the majesty of Jesus(transfiguration), that is “power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ”, encouraged the attention of the prophecies of Jesus’ coming back.
2Peter 2:19
And we have the word of the prophets made more certain, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts.

Actually, in the NAB, Isaiah 61:2 says: “To announce a year of favor from the LORD and a day of vindication by our God, to comfort all who mourn;” A year of favor and a day of vindication is not exactly “a day of vengeance of our God”. This time of favor, this time of vindication is the Kingdom of God in Christ, then and now. In this sense, this is past, present and future tense. And the non-Catholic churches like yourself are waiting for something that is already here, and not unlike the Jews of Jesus time, you just don’t get it.

No mention of the regathering of the people of Israel to the land of Israel, which is talked about in verse 4 and all over the OT.

Wow! Here is the same quote from Joel 3:1-4 from the NAB: “Then afterward I will pour out my spirit upon all mankind. Your sons and daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions; Even upon the servants and the handmaids, in those days, I will pour out my spirit. And I will work wonders in the heavens and on the earth, blood, fire, and columns of smoke; The sun will be turned to darkness, and the moon to blood, At the coming of the Day of the LORD, the great and terrible day.”

This is the same verse quoted by St. Peter in reference to the Day of Pentecost when the Holy Spirit was poured out on the Apostles. Again, and again, you simply do not get it. The Kingdom of God that Jesus announced, the day of favor, the day of vindication, the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, this is all past, present and future tense in the Kingdom of God made present in Christ, in his Body, which is the Church. The day the sun was darkened? The one and same day that Christ was crucified. Read the Gospels. It is all there.

You are talking about Joel 2:28-32, I was referring to Joel 3. So how do I not get it?

The notes in the NAB put it this way: “The unbelief of the Jews has paved the way for the preaching of the gospel to the Gentiles and for their easier acceptance of it outside the context of Jewish culture. Through his mission to the Gentiles Paul also hopes to fill his fellow Jews with jealousy. Hence he hastens to fill the entire Mediterranean world with the gospel. Once all the Gentile nations have heard the gospel, Israel as a whole is expected to embrace it. This will be tantamount to resurrection of the dead, that is, the reappearance of Jesus Christ with all the believers at the end of time.” Now the key here in this understanding is at the end of time. Not some time when Jesus comes to rule on earth as a political King, rather, at His 2nd Coming when He comes with the whole Church in judgement. There is indeed an element of truth in what you propose, just not the same as what you are proposing.

Gene

St.Paul was the Apostle to the Gentiles, but always went to the Jew first. St.Peter was the Apostle to the Jews, so there always was, and always should be the Gospel for the Jew first, then the Gentile. Why was this? One good reason was the prophecies of the Messiah, who we know is Jesus, came and will come back to the people of Israel in the land of Israel. The prophecies of His first coming to Israel were fuflilled exactly as was written, as well as His prophecies concerning His second coming to Israel will do the same.

 

[climer97007]

St.Peter, after speaking of their witness of the majesty of Jesus(transfiguration), that is “power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ”, encouraged the attention of the prophecies of Jesus’ coming back.
2Peter 2:19
And we have the word of the prophets made more certain, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts.

No mention of the regathering of the people of Israel to the land of Israel, which is talked about in verse 4 and all over the OT.

You are talking about Joel 2:28-32, I was referring to Joel 3. So how do I not get it?

St.Paul was the Apostle to the Gentiles, but always went to the Jew first. St.Peter was the Apostle to the Jews, so there always was, and always should be the Gospel for the Jew first, then the Gentile. Why was this? One good reason was the prophecies of the Messiah, who we know is Jesus, came and will come back to the people of Israel in the land of Israel. The prophecies of His first coming to Israel were fuflilled exactly as was written, as well as His prophecies concerning His second coming to Israel will do the same.

I obviously do not know your biblical numbering system. I can not find anything remotely similar to your 2nd Peter 2:19 scripture reference.

We need a common starting point. I suggest we use the NAB references. Your references are not making much sense, since I am using a Catholic Bible, with a Catholic numbering system. You can read the NAB online here for free:
usccb.org/nab/bible/index.shtml

St. Peter was the first Apostle to actually preach to the Gentiles. You can see this in Acts 10. St. Paul was annointed as an Apostle to the Gentiles, though he first proclaims the gospel to the Jews as recored in Acts 9. By Acts 11, Peter is being called onto the carpet for preaching the Gospel to the gentiles.

The Apostles preached to the Jews first for a very good reason. The Jewish synagogue is where the Old testament scriptures were located in every town. This was a very practical necessity. Peter and Paul both started with the Jews of every town in this manner.

By 70 AD, Jerusalem is sacked by Titus. By 90AD, at the Council of Jamnia, the Jews began the process of rejecting the Greek Old Testament in favor of the Hebrew Old Testament. This was the way that the Jews used to purify and purge the Jewish community of the Christian sect. After this purge is completed, maybe 200AD or so, the Christian sect is no longer welcome in Jewish Synagogues.

The Christian sect now has it’s own Greek Testament, the one rejected by the anti-Christian Hebrews, and they have their own New Testament Letters in Greek. It has been this way ever since. And the Christian Church no longer has a compulsion to go to the Synagogue, and I doubt very seriously whether you are doing any such a thing today.

However, there are many serious non-Catholic fundamentalist Christian sects which are very much concerned with setting up a new sacrificial system in Israel. Here is just one such group:
templemount.org/heifer.html

More about such things can be read here:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Heifer

Since these non-Catholic sects have rejected the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist, they are just as blind as the Rabbis who have rejected Christ. These non-Catholics see nothing evil about starting up a new animal sacrifice system in Israel, which is probably the single most Anti-Christian event imaginable. The sacrifice of Christ will be made null and void by such zealots, and the system of animal sacrifice will take the place of the One and True sacrifice of Christ. What a nightmare! I just ask that you not be deceived by such anti-Christian and anti-Catholic non-sense.

Gene

 

[QuickCat]

I don’t know why so many today equate taking the Gospel to the Jew first and the signifigance of Israel in the last days prophecies with Church involvement of political Temple rebuilding. When it comes to 3rd temple business, you might be speaking of a couple TV evangelists, but I just don’t see this “whole movement” thing you are referring to.

In addition to coming back for those who wait for Him, Jesus will come back to Israel just like prophecy of scripture says he will. In Luke 4, Jesus reads Isaiah 61:1-2 to the Jews in the synagogue in Nazerath and stops in a middle of a verse, to announce all he read was fulfilled that day in their ears. Now go back and read the rest of Isaiah 61, starting with verse 2 where Jesus left off. Jesus will come back to Israel again to “proclaim the day of vengeance of our God”.

As far as suffering through tough times, I was speaking of unsaved Jews, not believers. I am quite aware of how Christians can suffer here now for our Lord. But I was specifically referring to unsaved Jews. You go on about Masonry/Hollywood/etc conspiracies. So be it. But in the last days, unsaved Israel will have to go through their own sin problems, as well as the prophesized sin of the nations for hating Israel and dividing their land, which will be addressed by Jesus at His second coming.

**Joel 3:1-3
"In those days and at that time,
when I restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem,
I will gather all nations
and bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat.
There I will enter into judgment against them
concerning my inheritance, my people Israel,
for they scattered my people among the nations
and divided up my land.

They cast lots for my people
and traded boys for prostitutes;
they sold girls for wine
that they might drink.**

In light of last day prophecies concerning Israel, how can one say the Gospel to the Jew first is a thing of the past?

And it should be in every generation until Christ comes back for His Church. Is what St.Paul states here in the “past tense” also?

Romans 11:11-12
Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring!

Are there any more riches that can be brought in if Jews come into the Church? Is not a gentile who comes into the Church today made one new man in Christ WITH the Jews?

The fact that the Jew and Gentile are made one new man in Christ means that taking the Gospel to the Jew first, like it was since the beginning of the Church, should still be practiced in all generations.

Like the Gentile nations of all generations of the Church, Israel as well has poor, hungry, persecuted and meek people who need to hear the Gospel. It is far better for them to suffer with Christ and His Church now than to suffer without Him in the tribulation. In no way is this being deceived about the end times.

The gospel went to the “Jew first” only during the Acts transition period. After Israel was set aside in Acts 28 the gospel went to the Gentiles almost exclusively - See Acts 28:28. BTW, our Lord Jesus Christ spent His last 40 days on earth teaching the eleven about the coming millennial kingdom to be set up on earth with the Lord sitting on David’s throne in Jerusalem ruling over Israel and the nations. This is when the twelve will sit on 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel. See Matthew 18:28. Israel has a wonderful future ON THE EARTH while the Body of Christ has a higher calling in the heavenlies. See Ephesians 1:3.

Grace and Peace,

QC