The Trinity and the Incarnation

  • Thread starter Thread starter wk11
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Simply. You choice the easy way and just say Muhammad was a liar. But I proved my thoughts by which you believe in. I am glad at least you(all Christians) have a faith even you go wrong about attributes of God. You are not just people of God. All people were created by God.

I said Paul was enemy of Jesus. Is that not right? But you said Muhammad was an impostor. Even Satan could not claim that! I can point many wrongs in Saul’s disciplines. Could any one point a wrong in Qur’an? An impostor could say the most righteous words and ways? Even you abuse prophet Muhammad but by principles taught by Muhammad non of Muslim abuse Jesus and His religion. Muslims just notice some faults which were added into religion after Him.

There are Christians who interpret Bible in the way I do.

The fact God say through Qur’an do not injure Christianity and the conclusion does not change. If you just say Jesus was not God but He was sent by God and who believe in Jesus will have salvation that is more easy and certain. Because Jesus was a human and was sent with an authority which was given by God. That was very clear. Is there a need for God to come Himself? The way of God was/is not in that manner. God was used to send prophets. God did not sent another God even God did not sent an angel to preach people.

Satan come to people in the way which seems right. You say why God would allow His people to be deceived? There are many groups in Islam who were/are deceived by Satans. But the main course were always able to go on straight way. Muslims pray God to go on the staright way in Salat at least 40 times a day. You should not be so sure about being the unique true. Anyway…
Did Mohammed write this in the Qur’an:
That they said (in boast), “We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah”;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-
— Qur’an, sura 4 (An-Nisa) ayat 157-158[10]
That is simply a lie. Jesus died on the cross. Matthew bears witness to it. Mark bears witness to it. Luke bears witness to it. John bears witness to it. The Blessed Mary, Ever Virgin, was there and saw it. Jesus died on the cross. No one is “full of doubts” or “conjecture” except the author of the Qur’an, which dared to lie about the most holy sacrifice that Jesus made for all of us on the cross.

Saul was an enemy of God, but he repented and became Paul, a servant of God. Do Muslims believe it is possible for someone to repent and become a servant of God? Is there anyone like that in Muslim history?

People who interpret the Bible the way you do are not Christians. No Christian questions the authority of Paul’s epistles, or believes John’s epistles are simply “commentary.” Or rejects the book of Hebrews.
Because Jesus was a human and was sent with an authority which was given by God. That was very clear. Is there a need for God to come Himself? The way of God was/is not in that manner. God was used to send prophets. God did not sent another God even God did not sent an angel to preach people.
God has always desired to dwell directly with his people. From the very beginning in Genesis, God is there with Adam and Eve in the garden:
Genesis 3:8 And when they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in paradise at the afternoon air, Adam and his wife hid themselves from the face of the Lord God, amidst the trees of paradise.
Likewise, God gave the Israelites precise instructions on how to build the tabernacle, so that God could dwell among them:
Exodus 13:21 And the Lord went before them to shew the way by day in a pillar of a cloud, and by night in a pillar of fire: that he might be the guide of their journey at both times.
Exodus 29:45 And I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel, and will be their God:
Exodus 40:34 The cloud covered the tabernacle of the testimony, and the glory of the Lord filled it.
Zechariah 2:10 Sing praise, and rejoice, O daughter of Sion: for behold I come, and I will dwell in the midst of thee: saith the Lord.
Wisdom 18:15 Thy almighty word leapt down from heaven from thy royal throne, as a fierce conqueror into the midst of the land of destruction.
You conclude:
Satan come to people in the way which seems right. You say why God would allow His people to be deceived? There are many groups in Islam who were/are deceived by Satans. But the main course were always able to go on straight way. Muslims pray God to go on the staright way in Salat at least 40 times a day. You should not be so sure about being the unique true
Jesus came to save us from Satan, and anointed his Apostles with the Holy Spirit to guide them into the straight way. The two chief Apostles of Jesus, Peter and Paul, gave their lives in martyrdom to found the Church of Rome. The Church of Rome has consistently taught the doctrine I am sharing with you, for 2000 years. The Church of Rome has never been deceived and never strayed from the straight way, even as many other churches did. You should look into the Church of Rome. You will find it has the truth.
 
Proverbs 8 is not referring to any soul. It says:

That passage can only be referring to God. It goes on to say:

This is not a creature - He was present in the beginning, before God made anything. That can only be referring to God. No creature is eternal.

The passage goes on:

Again, He was with God forming all things. Only God formed all things. And at the same time, there are two persons clearly indicated - Wisdom, and God. Christians have always understand that Wisdom here is the Word of God, Jesus Christ, who took on flesh and became man for our salvation. Everyone who believes in Him shall not perish, but shall have eternal life. Proverbs 8:35
Yeah. With a very strained interpretation wisdom could supposed to be Jesus!

The peroblem is that Christians take some figurative statements as literal.
 
=PluniaZ;14428618]The Bible always uses “begotten” to refer to a father having a son or daughter. See biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=begot&qs_version=DRA This is why Jesus is called “begotten” by the Apostle John in John 1 and John 3 and 1 John 4. It means He is the Son of God the Father. Begotten is not the same as created. Created means God calls something into existence out of nothing. Begotten means the Father communicates his own Essence to the Son. As for why God the Father begets the Son, this goes back to my original post that God is Love. Love requires a relationship. The relationship between the Father, and the Son and the Holy Spirit shows us the true meaning of Love - each of them share their entire being with each other, without division or separation or keeping any part of their being for themselves alone. If only humans could learn to be so loving!
What is original of Son in eternal essence? There must be a prior existence to communicate to eternal essence. Where did it come from? Were there more than one God initially so Father united Godheads? Why did “love” not make Father to obey Son? But always Son obey Father?

The true meaning of Love! That should be assault Islam and abuse the greatest prophet of God!

You see with non philosophical figment it can be defended.
The Son was known. First as God’s Word - see Genesis 1 where God speaks and the world is created - i.e., the Word of God created the world. See also Proverbs 8, which I quoted before, where the Son is revealed as God’s Wisdom, which I’ll discuss below. And the Son of God is explicitly revealed in the Book of Wisdom Chapter 2:
The word of God is eternal. The wisdom of God is eternal. The life of God is eternal. All attributes of God is eternal. God to emphasize the omnipotent of Himself so God say He can do and create anything by just saying “be”. Be is a word but power of God create what is saying. But all the “word” in scripture does not refer to Jesus. Jesus is one of a conclusion of that order “be” . Jesus was born without a father and that is why Jesus call God as Father.

Proverb 8 is not about Jesus. That is comments of some Christians.
The Bible is explicit that the Son is equal to the Father. See John 5:18 - “Hereupon therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he did not only break the sabbath, but also said God was his Father, making himself equal to God.”
That is accusing of people to Jesus. Jesus never claimed such thing. The next of verse explain:

19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

Here Jesus said that He were doing what Father taught. Jesus always said Father had given all great authority to Jesus. Jesus never claimed such thing that He did anything by Himself. All miracles were gift of God. Also Jesus described Himself as Son of man(human).

27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
]In John 5:26, Jesus says, “For as the Father hath life in himself, so he hath given the Son also to have life in himself.” Only God has life in himself. Every living creature is dependent on God for its life. Yet Jesus says the Son “also” has life in himself. This is another illustration of how the Son is begotten - begotten means that the Father has given his own essence (life in himself) to the Son. Both the Father and the Son have the same essence - life in himself.
You should read from verse 24:

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

The way to have everlasting life is to believe in whom God sent and that was Jesus. Jesus call people to believe in Him.

God may give life to anyone. “in essence” is your interpretation. Jesus did not say that He had same essence with God. He said that He was Son of man.
In this passage, Jesus refers to himself as “him whom the Father hath sanctified and sent into the world.” Clearly Jesus is not only a man, because he had existence before he was sent into the world (in John 8:58, Jesus says, “Before Abraham was, I am.”). On top of this, Jesus says, “the Father is in me, and I in the Father.” What created being could God be in, and also be in God?
Prophet Muhammad declared that before everything the light(essence) of your prophet(Muhammad’s) were created. These should be about souls.

The inside of heart is a mirror for manifesting of God. When someone make heart mirror light so only God act on that mirror.

The mirror of Jesus were very clear that only God act and will of God fulfil.
In John 5:19, Jesus says, “19 Then Jesus answered, and said to them: Amen, amen, I say unto you, the Son cannot do any thing of himself, but what he seeth the Father doing: for what things soever he doth, these the Son also doth in like manner.” Jesus says that whatever the Father does, the Son also does. No created being can do whatever the Father does. Only God can do the things that God does.
Jesus said what God shown and given He did. Do that make Jesus God? Jesus expressed that Jesus never did anything which Father did not allowed. But you interpret that Jesus must be God! Very philosophically and a strained interpretation.
 
Yeah. With a very strained interpretation wisdom could supposed to be Jesus!

The peroblem is that Christians take some figurative statements as literal.
Saint Paul is explicit that Jesus is the Wisdom of God. 1 Corinthians 1:24. Early Christians were unanimous that Proverbs 8 is speaking of Jesus. You haven’t offered any explanation at all for this passage, other than to say it’s “figurative.”
 
What is original of Son in eternal essence? There must be a prior existence to communicate to eternal essence. Where did it come from? Were there more than one God initially so Father united Godheads? Why did “love” not make Father to obey Son? But always Son obey Father?
The true meaning of Love! That should be assault Islam and abuse the greatest prophet of God!
You see with non philosophical figment it can be defended.
You ask a philosophical question, and won’t accept a philosophical answer? There is nothing “prior” in God. “Prior” is an attribute of time which is an attribute of creation. God is not bound by time. Creation is. You are trying to apply the rules of creation to God, which is blasphemous. God created time and is not bound by it.

There is only one God. We both believe that. For you to ask me why there is only one God, you do just as well to ask yourself.

The Son does not “obey” the Father (apart from the Incarnation). The Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit have the same will. One does not command the other. Jesus speaks of obeying the Father after the Incarnation because at that point Jesus is not only God, but also a human being, and a human being must obey God.
The word of God is eternal. The wisdom of God is eternal. The life of God is eternal. All attributes of God is eternal. God to emphasize the omnipotent of Himself so God say He can do and create anything by just saying “be”. Be is a word but power of God create what is saying. But all the “word” in scripture does not refer to Jesus. Jesus is one of a conclusion of that order “be” . Jesus was born without a father and that is why Jesus call God as Father.
You keep saying that God acts through his spoken Word, but you don’t tell me what God’s Word is. Is the Word God?
Proverb 8 is not about Jesus. That is comments of some Christians.
The early church was unanimous that Proverbs 8 is about Jesus. You haven’t offered any alternative explanation.
That is accusing of people to Jesus. Jesus never claimed such thing. The next of verse explain:
19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
Here Jesus said that He were doing what Father taught. Jesus always said Father had given all great authority to Jesus. Jesus never claimed such thing that He did anything by Himself. All miracles were gift of God. Also Jesus described Himself as Son of man(human).
for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise” So somebody says, “What things soever God doeth, these also I do likewise” - and you don’t think that’s blasphemous, unless the person is in fact God?
27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
Yes, Jesus is not only God, but also a human being who is the King of Israel and even more, King of Heaven and Earth.
You should read from verse 24:
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
The way to have everlasting life is to believe in whom God sent and that was Jesus. Jesus call people to believe in Him.
You left out Verse 23: “23 That all men may honour the Son, as they honour the Father. He who honoureth not the Son, honoureth not the Father, who hath sent him.” Here Jesus demands to be honored “just as” (καθώς) the Father is honored. Again, if someone came up to you and said, “You must honor me just as you honor God,” you would call them a blasphemer for demanding equal honor with God, unless that person were in fact God.
God may give life to anyone. “in essence” is your interpretation. Jesus did not say that He had same essence with God. He said that He was Son of man.
Jesus said has “life in himself.” Who has life in himself besides God? Yes, Jesus is the Son of man. Jesus has two natures - God and human. That is what the Incarnation means - the Word took on flesh and became man, while remaining fully God.
Prophet Muhammad declared that before everything the light(essence) of your prophet(Muhammad’s) were created. These should be about souls.
Jesus said, “Before Abraham was, I am.” You say this just means that the soul of Jesus existed before Abraham. But didn’t Abraham have a soul too? Why do you think the soul of Jesus is older than Abraham’s? The Jews responded by trying to stone Jesus for blasphemy. You seem to think Jesus was poor at communicating, because everyone kept misunderstanding him. Isn’t it far more likely that the people speaking with Jesus face to face understood him perfectly, and some guy living in another part of the world who made up a new religion 600 years later is the one who didn’t understand Jesus?
 
The inside of heart is a mirror for manifesting of God. When someone make heart mirror light so only God act on that mirror.
The mirror of Jesus were very clear that only God act and will of God fulfil.
Jesus said what God shown and given He did. Do that make Jesus God? Jesus expressed that Jesus never did anything which Father did not allowed. But you interpret that Jesus must be God! Very philosophically and a strained interpretation.
As I said above, Jesus said, “19 Then Jesus answered, and said to them: Amen, amen, I say unto you, the Son cannot do any thing of himself, but what he seeth the Father doing: for what things soever he doth, these the Son also doth in like manner.” Jesus says he does “what things soever” God doth. No creature can do “what things soever” God doth. Jesus did not say, “There are some things God doth, that I cannot do.” Instead he said, “what things soever he doth, these the Son also doth in like manner.”
 




Jesus said, “Before Abraham was, I am.” You say this just means that the soul of Jesus existed before Abraham. But didn’t Abraham have a soul too? Why do you think the soul of Jesus is older than Abraham’s? The Jews responded by trying to stone Jesus for blasphemy. You seem to think Jesus was poor at communicating, because everyone kept misunderstanding him. Isn’t it far more likely that the people speaking with Jesus face to face understood him perfectly, and some guy living in another part of the world who made up a new religion 600 years later is the one who didn’t understand Jesus?
The religion is advise. I advise about God to be unique.

I am not sure whose soul were created previously. Jesus could meant that before Abraham Jesus was determined to be prophet and Abraham was known that. Jesus’s soul were created and Abraham might had been informed about that. Ofcourse that is my interpretation. But I do not conclude that Jesus must be God. Because Jesus were used to live, act, speak and perform like a human. Sometimes He was used to perform miracles. Even Father had given authority to forgive sinful. The pray of prophets are acceptable by God if it does not conflict with holy laws. Jesus could pray God for sins. But actually He was a human and messenger of God a high one.

If people did not understand or misunderstand Jesus but that was not failing of Jesus. There were many people who did not believe in Jesus. Was Jesus fruitless? No. People even upon that times were used to persecute messengers of God.

Saul was not eye witness of Jesus. But he established new doctrines in religion. The doctrines were not established by eye witness of Jesus! Allah know the best.

Muhammad did not talk from Himself. It was a pure revelation.

For Proberbs 8 here a link which interpret differently.

equip.org/article/who-is-wisdom-in-proverbs-8/

To reject doctrines does not mean reject Jesus and Christians. Christians think Jesus was a God. I am not in a position to judge that. The best God will judge all of use. I just wish peace and

Salam!
 
The religion is advise. I advise about God to be unique.

I am not sure whose soul were created previously. Jesus could meant that before Abraham Jesus was determined to be prophet and Abraham was known that. Jesus’s soul were created and Abraham might had been informed about that. Ofcourse that is my interpretation. But I do not conclude that Jesus must be God. Because Jesus were used to live, act, speak and perform like a human. Sometimes He was used to perform miracles. Even Father had given authority to forgive sinful. The pray of prophets are acceptable by God if it does not conflict with holy laws. Jesus could pray God for sins. But actually He was a human and messenger of God a high one.

If people did not understand or misunderstand Jesus but that was not failing of Jesus. There were many people who did not believe in Jesus. Was Jesus fruitless? No. People even upon that times were used to persecute messengers of God.

Saul was not eye witness of Jesus. But he established new doctrines in religion. The doctrines were not established by eye witness of Jesus! Allah know the best.

Muhammad did not talk from Himself. It was a pure revelation.

For Proberbs 8 here a link which interpret differently.

equip.org/article/who-is-wisdom-in-proverbs-8/

To reject doctrines does not mean reject Jesus and Christians. Christians think Jesus was a God. I am not in a position to judge that. The best God will judge all of use. I just wish peace and

Salam!
Equip.org is not a Catholic website. It is protestant, and like many protestants, it is ignorant of church history, in this case that the entire early church understood Proverbs 8 to apply to Jesus Christ. Surely Muslims must have the same problem, with various new sects creating new, erroneous interpretations of the Qur’an?

I don’t think the people speaking face to face with Jesus misunderstood him. He could have easily clarified by saying, “No, I am not God.” But he didn’t say that. Nor did he come out directly and say, “I am God” (although he basically did by saying, “I AM”). He tried to explain and reason with the Jews so that they would understand that He is the eternal only begotten Son of God. In every conversation, they understood him perfectly well, which is why they tried to stone him.

Consider whether it is really you and your fellow Muslims who have misunderstood Jesus for all these centuries.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top