The Trinity and the internal relations

[CutlerB]

I have repeatedly read in some places that the Father has the distinction of being entirely without origin. That to me means that the Son and the Holy Spirit have an origin. But what exactly does that mean? Doesn’t “origin” imply a beginning?

 

[catholic1seeks]

I have repeatedly read in some places that the Father has the distinction of being entirely without origin. That to me means that the Son and the Holy Spirit have an origin. But what exactly does that mean? Doesn’t “origin” imply a beginning?

It means that God is the necessary Being and that from eternity he has a ‘‘reflection’’ of Himself: the Word. And in this sense the Eternal Son has an origin, but it does not imply a beginning.

 

[Prayer_Warrior]

All share the same Divine Nature which is uncreated and without beginning. But it is common to say that the Father generates the Son or as is more commonly said “the Son is begotten of the Father”. And as you know from the creed we say that the Holy Spirit “pours forth” from the Father and the Son. I sort of think of the Trinity as the Son and the Spirit having resided in the heart of the Father for all eternity. But there came a point where God created and when He created He spoke a Word and His Spirit hovered over the waters (Gen 1). The Son (the Word) and the Spirit came forth. That does not mean that these distinct persons of God were created at that time, but rather they came forth in the creative work of God.

John 1:1 really helps me to understand that God can be with God while at the same time saying God is God. “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” This passage shows that there is a distinction between the persons of God. The Word (Son) was with God (the Father) and at the same time, the Word is God. Distinct but one. One but not solitary. There are other passages which talk about the Holy Spirit Who is also a distinct Person. Catholics and Orthodox disagree on the particulars of the pouring forth of the Spirit, but agree that He does come forth bringing God’s power and grace.

These are just my thoughts, if you find it confusing, just disregard. I know I can never have a complete understanding of the Trinity, but these points have helped me to embrace the concept of one Triune God.

 

[RyanBlack]

I sort of think of the Trinity as the Son and the Spirit having resided in the heart of the Father for all eternity. But there came a point where God created and when He created He spoke a Word and His Spirit hovered over the waters (Gen 1). The Son (the Word) and the Spirit came forth. That does not mean that these distinct persons of God were created at that time, but rather they came forth in the creative work of God.

This is highly problematic, in spite of your qualifier that the Son and the Holy Spirit were not
“created at that time, but rather they came for in the creative work of God.” The inner-Trinitarian relations are eternal, and are in no way contingent upon God’s act of creation. To say otherwise is to teach that God changes, which the Church rejects.

 

[Prayer_Warrior]

This is highly problematic, in spite of your qualifier that the Son and the Holy Spirit were not
“created at that time, but rather they came for in the creative work of God.” The inner-Trinitarian relations are eternal, and are in no way contingent upon God’s act of creation. To say otherwise is to teach that God changes, which the Church rejects.

You have misunderstood my meaning. I never said the Son and the Spirit were contingent upon God’s act of creation. I only said creation was a* point in time* where we can see that God spoke His Word and poured forth His Spirit. Prior to that there was no time. If I implied in any way that I thought that creation somehow ‘changed God’ then I am truly sorry. I tried to make clear from the first sentence that Father, Son and Holy Spirit share the same Divine Nature which has existed for all eternity. God’s Word was always with God and always was God (John 1:1)— I know that the same is true of God’s Holy Spirit. Always with God and always was God.

The Father begets the Son, and the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son. All of these relations* do not exist in time, but are eternal*. In other words, the Father has, is and will forever beget the Son, and the same can be said of the way the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son.

However, we see with the creation of the universe and time an action of God proceeding forth. I meant to use creation simply as an example of God pouring forth in time. I realize now I should have left that part off because it is more of an action of God rather than an internal relation which really is the point of the thread.

 

[Prayer_Warrior]

This is highly problematic, in spite of your qualifier that the Son and the Holy Spirit were not
“created at that time, but rather they came for in the creative work of God.” The inner-Trinitarian relations are eternal, and are in no way contingent upon God’s act of creation. To say otherwise is to teach that God changes, which the Church rejects.

You misunderstood my meaning and I apologize because it is my fault for talking about an action of God in time (creation) than the internal relations of God which is the point of the thread. I did not say that the Son and the Holy Spirit were contingent upon creation. YIKES. That was not my intent at all. From all eternity the Son and the Spirit were with God and were God. The Father begets the Son, and the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son. All of these relations do not exist in time, but are eternal. In other words, the Father has, is and will forever beget the Son, and the same can be said of the way the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son. I thought I made clear that I believe the Divine Nature is shared among the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. They exist from all eternity.
My example of the work of God in creation was just an analogy of pouring forth what had been there from all eternity.

Here is what the Fourth Lateran Council says which might address the OP more:

We firmly believe and simply confess that there is only one true God, eternal and immeasurable, almighty, unchangeable, incomprehensible and ineffable, Father, Son and holy Spirit, three persons but one absolutely simple essence, substance or nature {1} . The Father is from none, the Son from the Father alone, and the holy Spirit from both equally, eternally without beginning or end; the Father generating, the Son being born, and the holy Spirit proceeding; consubstantial and coequal, co-omnipotent and coeternal; one principle of all things, creator of all things invisible and visible, spiritual and corporeal;

This is from the Council of Florence:

The Father is entirely in the Son and entirely in the Holy Spirit; the Son is entirely in the Father and entirely in the Holy Spirit; the Holy Spirit is entirely in the Father and entirely in the Son. None of the persons precedes any of the others in eternity, nor does any have greater immensity or greater power. From eternity, without beginning, the Son is from the Father; and from eternity and without beginning, the Holy Spirit has proceeded from the Father and the Son.

 

[RyanBlack]

Thank you for clarifying.