The Trinity described for Muslims

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Faith101 post #19:
For me, as a muslim, the trinity is difficult to understand partly because I have been used to a simple message…ONE God, unique, nothing like Him. When presented with the concept of 3 in 1, it gets confusing.

Jesus (peace be upon him) was a man on earth, he got tired like the rest of us, felt pain like the rest of us…was indeed like the rest of us (not taking into consideration that he was choosen by God for a special mission). What makes him worthy of my worship?

The idea that God can do anything, Yes its true. Can God lie? I would hope everyone would say NO…but didn you say God can do anything? Yes he can…but God would not do something outside His nature…be a human like us, and then ask us to worship him…
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There are several ANALOGIES here on earth where I can show you 2 in 1, 3 in 1, 4 in 1`, 5 in 1, several in 1, many in 1. But like all Muslims and All Catholics, I BELIEVE THAT THE GOD OF ABRAHAM IS INFINITELY GREATER AND MORE MYSTERIOUS THAN ANY OF THEM.
Take the case of light. There are many Muslims who are PHYSICISTS, ENGINEERS, SCIENTISTS, STUDENTS WHO STUDIED PHYSICS, OPTICS, QUANTUM PHYSICS.

From one physics point of view, LIGHT IS A WAVE.

Yet from another physics point of view, LIGHT IS A SERIES OF PARTICLES.

YET IN OUR HUMAN MINDS, WE CANNOT BELIEVE THAT THE SAME LIGHT IS BOTH A PARTICLE AND A WAVE.

But there are physics experiments WIHICH WILL PROVE TO ANY PHYSICIST THAT LIGHT IS A WAVE.

On the other hand, there are physics experiments WHICH WILL PROVE TO ANY PHYSICIST THAT THAT SAME LIGHT IS A SERIES OF PARTICLES.

THE GOD OF ABRAHAM IS INFINITELY MORE MYSTERIOUS THAN LIGHT!!!
I have OTHER ANALOGIES. But the above might be enough for today. But understand that these are only analogies. THE GOD OF ABRAHAM IS FAR MORE MYSTERIOUS AND GREATER THAN THESE ANALOGIES. AND MUSLIMS AND CATHOLICS BELIEVE THAT THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD.
 
The Eurasian said:
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There are several ANALOGIES here on earth where I can show you 2 in 1, 3 in 1, 4 in 1`, 5 in 1, several in 1, many in 1. But like all Muslims and All Catholics, I BELIEVE THAT THE GOD OF ABRAHAM IS INFINITELY GREATER AND MORE MYSTERIOUS THAN ANY OF THEM.
I have OTHER ANALOGIES. But the above might be enough for today. But understand that these are only analogies. THE GOD OF ABRAHAM IS FAR MORE MYSTERIOUS AND GREATER THAN THESE ANALOGIES. AND MUSLIMS AND CATHOLICS BELIEVE THAT THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD.
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No one can understand the magnifesence of God completley, we agree. But when you say he is 3 in 1 and this is due to his complexity, you open up a flood of problems. What would you say to a person who believes that God actually consists of hundreds of “parts” (for lack of a better word) in one…how will you argue with them? THey will tell you that God is complex, more complex than just 3 in 1.

The message should be clear and simple. We, as humans, have been given a brain…do we use it in everything and neglect to use it in the one most important aspect of our lives…to understand our Creator. He is One, not more than one in one. But just one, complete, unique.
 
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Faith101:
The message should be clear and simple. We, as humans, have been given a brain…do we use it in everything and neglect to use it in the one most important aspect of our lives…to understand our Creator. He is One, not more than one in one. But just one, complete, unique.
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This is exactly what my friend (Muslim) told me. It won’t fly because we’re not the ones that decide what the truth “should” be. We can only take it or leave it.

Your assumption is that one GOD, must mean ONE person. Aside from the Koran, this was never specified before.
 
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Faith101:
No one can understand the magnifesence of God completley, we agree. But when you say he is 3 in 1 and this is due to his complexity, you open up a flood of problems. What would you say to a person who believes that God actually consists of hundreds of “parts” (for lack of a better word) in one…how will you argue with them? THey will tell you that God is complex, more complex than just 3 in 1.

The message should be clear and simple. We, as humans, have been given a brain…do we use it in everything and neglect to use it in the one most important aspect of our lives…to understand our Creator. He is One, not more than one in one. But just one, complete, unique.
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It is not logically impossible for God to take on a human nature as long as God’s divine nature remains and the two natures (human and divine) are not mixed. If they were mixed we would have a contradition; they are not, so we don’t.

Peace
 
Here is my interpretation of how The Holy Trinity appears to us, on the time continuum of truth:

In the beginning there was only God, then He made everything else, including man and woman, in His image and all was good, until….evil corrupted good…Why? Because God gave mankind free will to chose good or evil. They were given the death penalty for their transgression until….God came to earth, in the form of a man, to make justification that mankind should be allowed to live, eternally in heaven, with God. Why? Because God desired it.

Jesus came to die, in our place and to show us how we should live. He is God in the form of The Redeemer. He came to show us how to be obedient to The Father. He took the form of a slave and did not deem equality with God something to be grasped at, as Adam and Eve and all their decedents did/do because we are limited beings. Had He come in another form, other than human, who knows how we would have reacted.

He taught the chosen children of Israel, how to pray to God, The Father, who is in heaven and whose name is Holy. He taught them to ask for God, The Father’s will to be done on earth, as it is in heaven. He taught them to ask God, The Father, for their daily bread and to forgive them their trespasses, as they forgave those who trespassed against them. He taught them to ask God, The Father to lead them not to temptation, but to avoid the near occasion of sin.

He promised to send The Holy Spirit to help us until He returns. The Holy Spirit is God, The Sanctifier.

Islam has 99 names for The Almighty. Does this mean He has 99 attributes? Does it suggest He is of 99 separate entities? Does this make Him 99 in 1? Is it possible some of these names describe Jesus and The Holy Spirit? The Truth, The Real, The Restorer of Life, The Hidden, The Inward, The Light, The Guide?

Just some thoughts I’m pondering.

Peace to you all,
Elizabeth
 
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elizabeth4truth:
Islam has 99 names for The Almighty. Does this mean He has 99 attributes? Does it suggest He is of 99 separate entities? Does this make Him 99 in 1? Is it possible some of these names describe Jesus and The Holy Spirit? The Truth, The Real, The Restorer of Life, The Hidden, The Inward, The Light, The Guide?

Just some thoughts I’m pondering.

Peace to you all,
Elizabeth
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Peace to u also.

The 99 names of God are ONLY for Him. Attibutes are separate from the His names. NO creation can take any of those names and attibutes.

However, with Trinity, it is hard to comprehend that The Creator and the creation (Jesus) can share their attributes because they are mutually exclusive.

Thx,

deen
 
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dennisknapp:
It is not logically impossible for God to take on a human nature as long as God’s divine nature remains and the two natures (human and divine) are not mixed. If they were mixed we would have a contradition; they are not, so we don’t.

Peace
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Peace man!

Are you saying that Jesus was switching between the divine and human while he was on earth?

thx,

deen
 
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deen:
Peace to u also.

The 99 names of God are ONLY for Him. Attibutes are separate from the His names. NO creation can take any of those names and attibutes.

However, with Trinity, it is hard to comprehend that The Creator and the creation (Jesus) can share their attributes because they are mutually exclusive.

Thx,

deen
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deen,

It is not logically impossible for God to take on a human nature as long as God’s divine nature remains and the two natures (human and divine) are not mixed. If they were mixed we would have a contradition; they are not, so we don’t.

Peace
 
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deen:
Hey Jimmy,

Thanks for this thread. I appreciate the replies of all the members. If the Trinity teaches that the three persons are co-equal, what do you think of the following verses which seem to show the opposite?

John 14:28, Jesus said, “…the Father is greater than I.”
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The Father is greater than Christ in the respect that Christ is a man. But in the sense that Christ is divine they are equal.
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deen:
John 13:16, Jesus said, "The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.

Jesus said on numerous occasions that, “the Father… hath sent me.”
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Jesus is not greater than the Father. The Father is greater than Jesus, but the Father is coequal with The Word(which is the divine nature of Christ).
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deen:
John 5:37 The Holy Ghost was also sent by the Father, John 14:26, thus making the Holy Ghost inferior as a co-equal distinct separate person also.

John 10:29, Jesus said, “My Father… is greater than all.”

thx,

deen
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This verse is completely out of context. It should be like this,

That which my Father hath given me, is greater than all: and no one can snatch them out of the hand of my Father.
 
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deen:
Peace man!

Are you saying that Jesus was switching between the divine and human while he was on earth?

thx,

deen
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deen.

No, I am saying that He had (has) both at all times. He can use one or other depending on the will of the Father.

He has two nature which are seperate, but one person. This is not a contradition because the two natures (divine and human) are not mixed.

Peace
 
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Faith101:
For me, as a muslim, the trinity is difficult to understand partly because I have been used to a simple message…ONE God, unique, nothing like Him. When presented with the concept of 3 in 1, it gets confusing.

Jesus (peace be upon him) was a man on earth, he got tired like the rest of us, felt pain like the rest of us…was indeed like the rest of us (not taking into consideration that he was choosen by God for a special mission). What makes him worthy of my worship?

The idea that God can do anything, Yes its true. Can God lie? I would hope everyone would say NO…but didn you say God can do anything? Yes he can…but God would not do something outside His nature…be a human like us, and then ask us to worship him…
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When I was a Christian, I also had difficulty comprehending the doctrine. I always wanted to worship the “Father” or Almighty God alone. All praise to Him for guiding me to Islam.

peace,

deen

The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology states: **" The New Testament does not contain the developed doctrine of the Trinity. The Bible lacks the expressed declaration that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are of equal essence." **
  • Protestant / Theologian Karl Barth
ref: Bible & Tract Society of Pennsylvania: Should You believe in Trinity? (1989), In’tl Bible Student Association, Brooklyn, NY, USA
 
Deen

Muslims believe that Jesus is God’s Prophet. Muslims even believe that he will come back in the final days to fight the anti-Christ. Why then do Muslims not believe everything that their prophet Isa (Jesus) told in the Gospels. 4 separate witnesses apostles are not enough???
 
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deen:
Peace to u also.

The 99 names of God are ONLY for Him. Attibutes are separate from the His names. NO creation can take any of those names and attibutes.

However, with Trinity, it is hard to comprehend that The Creator and the creation (Jesus) can share their attributes because they are mutually exclusive.

Thx,

deen
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One thing is, Jesus has two natures, one human and one divine. The divine nature is eternal with the Father. The human nature is created. You can see that the Son is not created in John1;1-5.
 
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deen:
When I was a Christian, I also had difficulty comprehending the doctrine. I always wanted to worship the “Father” or Almighty God alone. All praise to Him for guiding me to Islam.

peace,

deen

The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology states: **" The New Testament does not contain the developed doctrine of the Trinity. The Bible lacks the expressed declaration that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are of equal essence." **
  • Protestant / Theologian Karl Barth
ref: Bible & Tract Society of Pennsylvania: Should You believe in Trinity? (1989), In’tl Bible Student Association, Brooklyn, NY, USA
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You are taking this statement by Karl Barth to the extreme. The Trinity is not expressed in complete form in one place in the NT, but it is there. Also, Christianity is not based solely on Holy Scripture. There is also Holy Tradition which is completely equal with Holy Scripture. The Trinity is completely expounded in Holy Tradition.
 
The Holy Tradition is the continuous teaching of Christs Church from the time of Christ. Take for example this quote from one of the great saints of the first century, Ignatius of Antioch.

“Ignatius, also called Theophorus, to the Church at Ephesus in Asia . . . predestined from eternity for a glory that is lasting and unchanging, united and chosen through true suffering by the will of the Father in Jesus Christ our God” (*Letter to the Ephesians *1 [A.D. 110]).

or this one.

“For our God, Jesus Christ, was conceived by Mary in accord with God’s plan: of the seed of David, it is true, but also of the Holy Spirit” (ibid.,18:2).

The Catholic Church has believed Christ to be God since Christ was here on earth. It is seen in the above quotes from a first century saint. There are many saints that would say the same.
 
The Eurasian said:
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Your analogy is wrong. This is not a case of one God talking to another God because THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD.

Take yourself for example. Does your brain talk with your conscience, your soul, for example???
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If my analogy is wrong and there is only one GOD then why is Jesus considered as GOD in Christianity.One GOD means one GOD not another one who when you want him to be GOD he too joins in the GOD head and when you want him to be human then he is more human than human.
This is a play with words thet the Christians use.There is only one GOD and Jesus is GOD.
As mentioned in th Bible jesus was aprophet a man approved of GOD that makes him no way co equal to GOD
Peace
Straightpath 👍
 
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straightpath:
If my analogy is wrong and there is only one GOD then why is Jesus considered as GOD in Christianity.One GOD means one GOD not another one who when you want him to be GOD he too joins in the GOD head and when you want him to be human then he is more human than human.
This is a play with words thet the Christians use.There is only one GOD and Jesus is GOD.
As mentioned in th Bible jesus was aprophet a man approved of GOD that makes him no way co equal to GOD
Peace
Straightpath 👍
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Christ calls himself God in the bible. Read John6. Christ says, :before Abraham was, I AM". That is a title that God used for himself in the Old Testament. Also look at the epistle of John where it says, The Father, The Son and The Spirit are all one. Look at John1 where it says “In the begining was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” That is calling the Word God. Later in the chapter it says “The Word was made flesh”, so the Word was a man. Also look at John1;3 where it says “everything was made through him and without him was made nothing that was made”. This requires that the Word is eternal and unmade because if he was made then there was something made without him.

The New Testament is very clear that Jesus Christ is God.

You are still misunderstanding the Trinity. Jesus is not man sometimes and God sometimes. He is a man always and God always. It is who He is. He is 100% God and 100% man.

Next, there is one God. That is the Trinity; The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit. They are all one.

Play with words? You can think that if you want, but it does not make it true. The truth is the truth. You can see that Christ is God through the theology of Christianity back to the first century. I showed you quotes from Ignatius. All other Christians from around the same time and in the next couple centuries professed Christ to be God.
 
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straightpath:
If my analogy is wrong and there is only one GOD then why is Jesus considered as GOD in Christianity.One GOD means one GOD not another one who when you want him to be GOD he too joins in the GOD head and when you want him to be human then he is more human than human.
This is a play with words thet the Christians use.There is only one GOD and Jesus is GOD.
As mentioned in th Bible jesus was aprophet a man approved of GOD that makes him no way co equal to GOD
Peace
Straightpath 👍
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Straightpath,

As has been stated before it is not logically impossible for God to take on a human nature as long as God’s divine nature remains and the two natures (human and divine) are not mixed. If they were mixed we would have a contradition; they are not, so we don’t.

We are not playing with words but are proclaiming that which has been revealed by God.

Peace
 
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jimmy:
Christ calls himself God in the bible. Read John6. Christ says, :before Abraham was, I AM". That is a title that God used for himself in the Old Testament. Also look at the epistle of John where it says, The Father, The Son and The Spirit are all one. Look at John1 where it says “In the begining was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” That is calling the Word God. Later in the chapter it says “The Word was made flesh”, so the Word was a man. Also look at John1;3 where it says “everything was made through him and without him was made nothing that was made”. This requires that the Word is eternal and unmade because if he was made then there was something made without him.

The New Testament is very clear that Jesus Christ is God.

You are still misunderstanding the Trinity. Jesus is not man sometimes and God sometimes. He is a man always and God always. It is who He is. He is 100% God and 100% man.

Next, there is one God. That is the Trinity; The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit. They are all one.

Play with words? You can think that if you want, but it does not make it true. The truth is the truth. You can see that Christ is God through the theology of Christianity back to the first century. I showed you quotes from Ignatius. All other Christians from around the same time and in the next couple centuries professed Christ to be God.
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Thank you Jimmy. Excellent answer with evidence.
In Christ,
selvaraj
 
The Eurasian:
Deen

Muslims believe that Jesus is God’s Prophet. Muslims even believe that he will come back in the final days to fight the anti-Christ. Why then do Muslims not believe everything that their prophet Isa (Jesus) told in the Gospels. 4 separate witnesses apostles are not enough???
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The gospels that we have today is not the Gospel given to Jesus (peace be upon him),They are gospel according to and according to. Do you think Jesus was Given abook that explained how he was born and how he died.What are in the Gospels attributed to Jesus have been that not all were spoken by him.
There are things that are said to have come from Jesus in the NT but in really he did not say.So those 4 separate witnesses are not enough.many were writting their opinion or that of others.
Peace be upon those who are righteously Guided
Straightpath
 
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