The trinity in the Gospels

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whyeyeman said:
Please see my point about pre existence.
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I AM isn’t merely claiming pre-existence, it is a statement of eternality.

Before… WAS, would be claiming pre-existence
Before… AM is proclaiming eternality

Especially since I AM is the divine name revealed to Moses by the eternal, transcendent God himself from the Old Testament. Jesus is applying God’s name to himself. In effect, saying I AM Who I AM. I AM God.

I don’t think you are as well versed in this topic as you suppose yourself to be, which is likely why you don’t want to open it up to discussion.

Why would Jesus allow his disciples to worship him in the boat after he stilled the storm, according to Mark, using precisely the same Greek word προσκυνέω Jesus told Satan was reserved for God alone?
 
. . . and what if it were written that the phrase Jesus spoke was not merely εγώ ειμι but rather the actual LXX Exodus phrase:
εγώ ειμι o ων
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?
 
Prophets didn’t claim themselves to be prophets. Someone else had to recognize it and testify.

How much more that is true if you are God

The incarnation can only be revealed by heaven.

No one even believe a Virgin birth unless it is revealed from heaven_

_Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife, for the child conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit.
> _
_ And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father in heaven.
_> _
_> All things have been handed over to me by my Father; and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, or who the Father is except the Son and anyone to whom the So_n chooses to reveal him.”
 
It’s seems easy to claim someone is God. No one will believe an earthly claim like that. Much more difficult if you are the God of Abraham. Even harder to claim to them if they are among a world of polytheists.

I think those are reasons for the delay we think we see in understanding Jesus is God
 
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‘I’ve already had every conceivable debate and am uninterested in debate…so what do you think, let’s …discuss…?’

Uhuh :roll_eyes:

Jesus is the most famous Individual on the planet. A person who offended the Jews and died for it, historically, because they knew exactly what he was ‘implying’ with his reference to OT scholarship.

You don’t like it. Good for you. This topic is hardly new.
 
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Christ said “I am”, God in exodus said “I am who am”. Not the same
 
57“You are not yet fifty years old,” they said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”

58“Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” 59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.

———

You seem to be under the impression that someone claiming directly to ‘be’ before Abraham here, is any ordinary Man. The referenced dialogue is quite long.

He would have to have been extraodinarily old - and then some.

Your problem is clearly with Lord Jesus and what he claimed, no matter what you profess your reasoning to be.

Only you know what you believe. If you have no faith in Jesus - indeed, go elsewhere as you have supposed.
 
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whyeyeman: Not the same
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Why consider the post with no answer to the question of what if?

Rephrased to see if you’ll answer this time:
If the saying were written with those two extra words ( o ων ) in the Gospel narratives, would you equate Jesus as the same being who is portrayed in Exodus, not as a development, but as understood initially by the early writers?

As an aside: Even the blind man who regained sight (John 9:9) said:
Ἐγώ εἰμι
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when people were questioning whether he was the same person or not.
 
whyeyeman said:
The fact that “the word” is a coequal, coeternal person of a triune God is a later development. Gospel of John was written decades after the three synoptic gospels. Proclamation of Jesus full divinity was not until decades after that, mostly from the influence of Ignatius of Antioch, among others.
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Actually, if you know the Old Testament, Jesus’ claims were NOT “made up” later. Every reference of his to who he claims to be came straight out of the Old Testament – Daniel, Psalms, the Prophets, the Torah. It may have taken John some time to work through these and highlight them, whereas the Synoptic writers simply reported what Jesus said and did. However, if you take the time to read Jesus’ allusions in the context of where his wording came from in the OT and its significance there, you will see that he is claiming to be God many times over in the Synoptics.

There is evidence that John wrote Revelation during the time of Nero, mid-sixties. While it might be debated when he wrote his Gospel, the fact that John the beloved Apostle wrote it is far more important than when he wrote it.
 
Ah yes, but have you read the Old Testament? Where Yahweh Sabaoeth says how he was worth 30 silver pieces. Have you read that book of the Bible? Where Yahweh Sabaoeth tells about riding into Jerusalem on a donkey, a colt, on the goal of a donkey?
 
whyeyeman said:
And no, it’s dishonest because, for example, it claims that Romans 8:11 says the holy spirit raised Jesus from the dead. This is quite simply a lie. Romans 8:11 reads as follows:

“If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.”

Anyone with basic reading comprehension can see that it doesn’t say that.
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It doesn’t?

“If the Spirit of him [God] who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he [God] who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his [Holy] Spirit who dwells in you.”
 
Have I not already said that I think the gospel of John teaches pre existence?
 
No. Read it again.
If I say " the hat of him who kicked an old man", does that mean the hat kicked the old man?

If I say “the friend of him who ate my cake.”, does that mean “the friend” are the cake?
 
whyeyeman said:
Christ said “I am”, God in exodus said “I am who am”. Not the same
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Perhaps not on the surface, but when Jesus says, “I Am,” in the context of doing something only God would or could do in the Old Testament, that is very significant.

The following borrows heavily from Brant Pitre’s The Case for Jesus.

Mark’s version of stilling the storm is widely regarded as the earliest.
On that day, when evening had come, he said to them, “Let us go across to the other side.” And leaving the crowd behind, they took him with them in the boat, just as he was. Other boats were with him. A great windstorm arose, and the waves beat into the boat, so that the boat was already being swamped. But he was in the stern, asleep on the cushion; and they woke him up and said to him, “Teacher, do you not care that we are perishing?” He woke up and rebuked the wind, and said to the sea, “Peace! Be still!” Then the wind ceased, and there was a dead calm. He said to them, “Why are you afraid? Have you still no faith?” And they were filled with great awe and said to one another, “Who then is this, that even the wind and the sea obey him?” (Mark 4:35-41)
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On one level, it might be taken as merely a miraculous display of Jesus’ power. He is so powerful, he can still the storm. But there is more going on here. The question at the end of the story points it out. What does this miracle lead his disciples to ask? Not, “Is this guy sent by God?” Not, “Is he the Messiah?” But they ask about his identity, who he is: “Who then is this, that even the wind and the sea obey him?”

Continued…
 
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To clarify, if you don’t believe Jesus claimed to be God in the Gospels, that’s not heretical, just ridiculously wrong.

It’s only if you don’t believe Jesus is God that you’re a heretic.
 
In a first century Jewish context, there is something more than just a miracle going on here. This isn’t the first time that a story of someone stilling a storm appears in Scripture.

It is also the case that YAHWEH, himself stills a storm in the Old Testament in the Book of Psalms, which is the most well-known book for a Jew at the time of Jesus. If you were a Jew at the time of Jesus, you would constantly be singing psalms in the Temple and synagogue.

Look at Psalm 107 (23-30) and compare it with Mark 4:
Some went down to the sea in ships,
doing business on the mighty waters;
they saw the deeds of the LORD,
his wondrous works in the deep.
For he commanded and raised the stormy wind,
which lifted up the waves of the sea.
They mounted up to heaven, they went down to the depths;
their courage melted away in their calamity;
they reeled and staggered like drunkards,
and were at their wits’ end.
Then they cried to the LORD in their trouble,
and he brought them out from their distress;
he made the storm be still,
and the waves of the sea were hushed.
Then they were glad because they had quiet,
and he brought them to their desired haven.
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If we start with this passage from the psalm and line it up with Mark 4, the parallels are really striking.

Who stills the storm? The LORD. Remember that the word LORD represents the four sacred letters of the Tetragrammaton, the name יהוה. Whenever you see LORD, all-caps, in the OT, it represents the sacred name YAHWEH. That is what it means. So in Psalm 107, YAHWEH stills the storm.

There are six points here:
  1. There are sailers and ships
  2. There is a stormy wind and waves
  3. The courage of the sailers melts away
  4. So they cry out to YAHWEH
  5. YAHWEH stills the storm
  6. The waves of the sea are quiet
Put those next to Mark 4 and the main parallel is that Jesus in Mark 4 does what YAHWEH does in Psalm 107.
  1. There are disciples in the boat
  2. There are stormy winds and waves
  3. The disciples are afraid
  4. They cry out to Jesus as opposed to YAHWEH
  5. Jesus stills the storm (Notice Jesus doesn’t say, ‘LORD, still the storm.’ He just commands it. He doesn’t ask God, he doesn’t pray, he just commands.)
  6. There was a great calm.
The episode isn’t just in Mark 4, but also in Luke 8 (22-25) and Matthew 8 (23-27).

Two of these are based on direct eye witness testimony because Mark’s account is from Peter, who was there, and Matthew’s account from his own memories of the event.
 
We have a striking parallel between Jesus and Yahweh and notice that the disciples get it because they ask the question, “Who is this that even the winds and the waves obey HIM?"

Jesus doesn’t just perform a miracle, but performs it in the context of taking the divine name as his own name.

When Jesus walks on water at the fourth watch of the night – in the middle of the night it says, "…he meant to “pass them by,” but when they saw him, they thought it was a ghost. He spoke to them. “Take heart, it is I. (ego eimi. Ancient Greek: ἐγώ εἰμί [èɡɔ̌ː èːmí])”

The context here is very important.
  1. Jesus is walking on the sea. He is performing a miracle of power over the sea that we have not seen done by any human before. Moses parted the waters of the sea so the Israelites could walk dry shod on the ground. It is entirely another thing to walk on the water itself.
  2. When they see him, they think he is a ghost. He says, “It is I.” How do we translate ἐγώ εἰμί? Literally, the words mean “I am.” What is it that determines the meaning? Context. The question is whether it should be translated “It is I” or “I am.” Is there something deeper going here?
What we appear to have here is a theophany, the most famous of which is when the Lord reveals his name to Moses in Exodus 3 . Where does ego eimi (ἐγώ εἰμί) come from? It comes from the most famous theophany of the Old Testament. I AM (ἐγώ εἰμί) is the name of God that was revealed to Moses in the most famous theophany of all on Mount Sinai.

So what is Jesus doing here if you put his words in context? He is alluding to the theophany on Mount Sinai. This is even admitted by scholars who don’t think Jesus claimed to be divine, but are just commenting on the Markan text.

When God reveals his name as I AM, it signifies that he is eternal. He doesn’t have a beginning or end, a past or present but just is. He is the one who simply is. As Thomas Aquinas would say later, God is Being Itself. That is what I AM (ego eimi [ἐγώ εἰμί]) reveals to us. He is not “a being,” but BEING ITSELF.
 
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In Job 9, God is the one who removes the mountains, shakes the earth out of its place, God alone who commands the Sun and it does not rise, who seals the stars, who alone stretched out the heavens AND trampled the waves of the sea.

Then Job answered:
“Indeed I know that this is so; but how can a mortal be just before God? If one wished to contend with him, one could not answer him once in a thousand. He is wise in heart, and mighty in strength—who has resisted him, and succeeded?—he who removes mountains, and they do not know it, when he overturns them in his anger; who shakes the earth out of its place, and its pillars tremble; who commands the sun, and it does not rise; who seals up the stars; who alone stretched out the heavens and trampled the waves of the Sea; (Job 9:1-8)
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In the Greek version it says, “God alone walks on the sea as if it is dry ground."

So God, according to Job, ALONE walks on the sea in the Old Testament and in verse 11 Job says "Look, he passes me by, and I do not see him; he moves on, but I do not perceive him.”

What does Mark say about Jesus?

He intended to pass them by.

That is the language of theophany. When he revealed his identity to Moses, what did he do? He passes by. When he revealed his identity to Elijah what did he do? He passes by. When he revealed his identity to Job, what did he do? He passes by AND he tramples on the waves of the sea.

What a coincidence! That Jesus does what ONLY God does in the Old Testament at the same time as he takes God’s name I AM.

Well, maybe a coincidence and maybe not. Maybe what this is another theophany. Maybe the reason there is all this language of theophany is because it IS a theophany – God revealing himself.
 
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