The trinity in the Gospels

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Have you even seen an icon of Pentecost?

Baptism and confirmation being separate is more a recent thing.

God is not bound to the sacraments.

Tongues of fire.

I feel like you are really just trying to instill doubt now.

Where Darth Vader at?
 
He certainly sat on the throne of God.1 Chronicles 29:23. And sitting at the right hand of God is sitting on the throne of God.

Understanding this is key to understanding why Jesus had to be of the seed of David.
 
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I’m not. I’ve been thinking about all these verses for months. Believe me it would be much simpler if I could believe they are saying what so many people claim. But you have to believe so many lies to swallow it.
 
whyeyeman said:
For goodness sake. We’ve been through this seventeen times. I don’t trust the Pharisees.
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We’re not asking you to trust in their conclusions (i.e., that Jesus isn’t God). We’re asking you to recognize what they heard Jesus say. When He said, “I AM”, he was making a claim to be God. And, subsequently, they accused Him of blasphemy.
whyeyeman said:
“I am” is not the name of God in Exodus. It is " I am who Am." Not the same.
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In Exodus 3:14, when God tells Moses who is sending him, what does God say?

“God replied to Moses: I am who I am. Then he added: This is what you will tell the Israelites: I AM has sent me to you.”

If you’re gonna quote Exodus 3:14, you should quote all of it… 😉
 
Well God doesn’t lie so…

I can see where you are standing from here.
 
whyeyeman said:
And, if you actually read my OP, you will see that this is not at all what I am saying. I am saying it is a doctrinal development. The basis of doctrinal development is that new statements do not contradict previous statements, and nonetheless add something to our understanding.
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Except “doctrinal developments” are not “out of the blue” and completely novel compared to what is already there. Nor do they contradict what was there.

Doctrine develops FROM the truth of what is there in some nascent form in Scripture.

The Trinity is implicit in Scripture, not completely absent from it or foreign to it.

That is the point of “development.”

A human being develops FROM an embryo because the nature of being human is contained in the embryonic form of the human being. Developments just don’t pop up out of the blue.

It isn’t… …human… …human… …human… …chicken!

And the developments certainly don’t contradict completely what was there in nascent form.

Yet you are claiming that Church teaching in some sense contradicts Scripture, which is why you are discounting Scripture.

Isn’t that the crux of the matter for you?
 
1 Chronicles 29:23 23So Solomon sat on the throne of the LORD as king in place of his father David. He prospered and all Israel obeyed him.

Does that say he will be in heaven at that moment sitting on God’s throne? he was on the throne of Israel, the throne of the Lord as king. This does not compare to what Jesus was talking about
 
whyeyeman said:
I KNOW HE IS ASSUMING X IS TRUE. That is literally besides the point.
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No. The point I’m making is in response to your statement upthread:
whyeyeman said:
it’s dishonest because, for example, it claims that Romans 8:11 says the holy spirit raised Jesus from the dead. This is quite simply a lie.
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I’ve just showed you that Romans 8:11 is, in fact, saying that God’s Spirit raised Jesus from the dead – which is the point that you claim is a lie.
 
HarryStotle said:
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whyeyeman:
And no, it’s dishonest because, for example, it claims that Romans 8:11 says the holy spirit raised Jesus from the dead. This is quite simply a lie. Romans 8:11 reads as follows:

“If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.”

Anyone with basic reading comprehension can see that it doesn’t say that.
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It doesn’t?

“If the Spirit of him [God] who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he [God] who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his [Holy] Spirit who dwells in you.”
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whyeyeman said:
No. Read it again.
If I say " the hat of him who kicked an old man", does that mean the hat kicked the old man?

If I say “the friend of him who ate my cake.”, does that mean “the friend” are the cake?
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I read it again. You are incorrect. Parentheses might help.

“If the Spirit [of him who raised Jesus from the dead] dwells in you, he [God] who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.”

The clause: “of him who raised Jesus from the dead” is referring to God the Father. It is HIS Spirit who “dwells in you.”

The sentence could be read:

“If the Spirit …dwells in you, he [God] who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his [i.e., God’s] Spirit who dwells in you.”

The qualifier “of him who raised Jesus from the dead” is simply specifying whose Spirit is being spoken of.

So Romans 8:11 does NOT say "the holy spirit raised Jesus from the dead." It states that God (he who raised Christ Jesus) did, but furthermore that God’s Spirit will give life to your mortal bodies and dwell in you. It is incorrect to insist, as you do, that, “This is quite simply a lie.”
 
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anyway I’m done with this thread, for now. time to study for exams 😦
 
whyeyeman said:
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HarryStotle:
So Romans 8:11 does NOT say "the holy spirit raised Jesus from the dead
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I know… That’s what I’ve been arguing the whole time…
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Well, not exactly.

You claimed it was “a lie” to say the Holy Spirit raised Jesus from the dead.

The passage neither says nor implies that the Holy Spirit DIDN’T raise Jesus from the dead. It doesn’t exclude that possibility.

Here is what you claimed:
And no, it’s dishonest because, for example, it claims that Romans 8:11 says the holy spirit raised Jesus from the dead. This is quite simply a lie. Romans 8:11 reads as follows:

“If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.”

Anyone with basic reading comprehension can see that it doesn’t say that.
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So while the passage doesn’t say explicitly that the Holy Spirit raised Jesus, it does state clearly that God did.

And if the Holy Spirit is one of the three persons whose nature is God, the passage doesn’t EXCLUDE that the Holy Spirit, as God, raised Jesus from the dead.

So you cannot claim it is a “lie” to say the Holy Spirit raised Jesus, even if it explicitly says God raised him. The Holy Spirit is God, no?
 
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