The trinity in the Gospels

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RedFan, you would have to believe our profession of faith. could you say this?

I believe in one God, the Father almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible. I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Only Begotten Son of God,
born of the Father before all ages. God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father; through him all things were made.

Edit: in reference to what you said to whyeye man about the trinity.
 
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I would like to point out that King David was Israel’s Lord and Messiah also. “Messiah” just means “anointed one”.

2 Samuel 1:14 - David said to him, “How is it you were not afraid to put out your hand to destroy the Lord’s anointed?”

1 king 1:17-18 - She said to him, “My lord, you swore to your servant by the LORD your God, saying, ‘Solomon your son shall reign after me, and he shall sit on my throne.’ And now, behold, Adonijah is king, although you, my lord the king, do not know it.
 
I am on board almost 100%, Benadam. I might quibble with the word “born” as a poor translation of the original Nicene formulation (“begotten” would be better, in my opinion), but this is a minor detail compared to the “consubstantial” (homoousion) designation. And it is crucial that we understand the term if our profession of faith is to be meaningful and valuable.

The first order of business is ascertaining what language came out of Nicaea. Because it collects 170 witnesses to the creed, the gold standard for recovery of the original Greek text is Dossetti’s Il Simbolo di Nicea e di Costantinopoli. Here is R.P.C. Hanson’s translation of it into English, found in The Search for the Christian Doctrine of God (1988):

“We believe in one God Father Almighty Maker of all things seen and unseen:

“And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten as only-begotten of the Father, that is of the substance (ousia) of the Father, God of God, Light of light, true God of true God, begotten not made, consubstantial with the Father, through whom all things came into existence, both things on heaven and things on earth.”


The next order of business is ascertaining what the drafters meant by homoousion. A good start would be Eusebius of Caeseria’s letter from Nicene to his congregation written just after the council ended, this translation taken from Documents Illustrative of the History of the Church, vol. II (Kidd, ed.,1923).

“Now this declaration of faith being propounded by them, we did not neglect to investigate the distinct sense of the expressions ‘of the substance of the Father, and consubstantial with the Father.’ Whereupon questions were put forth and answers, and the meaning of these terms was clearly defined; when it was generally admitted that ousias (of the essence or substance) simply implied that the Son is of the Father indeed, but does not subsist as a part of the Father. To this interpretation of the sacred doctrine which declares that the Son is of the Father, but is not apart of his substance, it seemed right to us to assent. We ourselves therefore concurred in this exposition; nor do we cavil at the word ‘homoousios’ having regard to peace, and fearing to lose a right understanding of the matter.

“That he is consubstantial with the Father then simply implies, that the Son of God has no resemblance to created things, but is in every respect like the Father only who begat him; and that he is of no other substance or essence but of the Father. To which doctrine, explained in this way, it appeared right to assent, especially since we knew that some eminent bishops and learned writers among the ancients have used the term ‘homoousios’ in their theological discourses concerning the nature of the Father and the Son."

I’m happy to discuss how those “ancients” used the term, Benadam. How deep into the weeds do you want to go with me?
 
I accept EVERY Scriptural instance of “Messiah” meaning Messiah.
And… we know what ‘Messiah’ means, don’t we? 😉
could support Peter’s declaration IF he meant it as a declaration of divinity. We haven’t had the discussion with him, so we don’t know for sure
Annnnd… now we’ve moved so far from your original claim (having seen it debunked), that I don’t know what our subject is, anymore. 🤷‍♂️
 
Peter and Matthew were disciples of Jesus, so pointing out what Messiah and lord meant with respect to David is irrelevant.

Besides, Jesus’ allusion to Psalm 110 as a Messianic Psalm to counter the Scribes’ insistence on a purely human Messiah, means that this one particular promised and coming Messiah would not only be David’s son but his Lord. In other words, the Lord of David, himself a lord. The Lord of lords. You need to take seriously the fact that Jesus himself disagrees with you with reference to how David himself was using the word Lord in Psalm 110.

Again, it isn’t entirely relevant how the word messiah was sometimes used in the OT. What is relevant is how Jesus used the word and how his disciples Peter and Matthew did. Given that Jesus connects the Messiah to the divine ‘Son of Man’ in Daniel, as Daniel himself does, that implies Jesus meant Messiah to mean more than just ‘anointed one.’

And I would suggest that Peter and Matthew (and Paul) all followed the lead of their Lord on this one.
 
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How does Psalm 110 point to a beyond-human Messiah?
It says “the LORD (God) says to My Lord (the Messiah)” clearly differentiating between God and his Messiah.
 
How would you answer Jesus’ second question in Matthew 22?
Jesus said to them, “How then does David in the Spirit call Him Lord? For he says: ‘The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at My right hand, until I put Your enemies under Your feet.”’ So if David calls Him Lord, how can He [merely] be David’s son?”…
Would David refer to a merely human king – who subsequent to David became the anointed king of Israel – as his Lord? In what sense would David be subservient to some later king of Israel and call him “Lord?”

Note also, that David doesn’t say, “The Lord will say to my Lord…” as in some future time this will take place. David has already witnessed it, meaning that the addressing of his Lord by his Lord has already happened. That appears significant. It cannot be Saul, since Saul is not David’s son.
 
’m happy to discuss how those “ancients” used the term, Benadam. How deep into the weeds do you want to go with me?
And RedFan, thank you for that thoughtful reply. I don’t think I appreciated the sublimity of the theology being discussed.

I am not very familiar with the territory. But if you got the map I will bring some repellent.for the mosquitos.
 
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What is the difference between “born” and “begotten”?
To be “born” usually connotes a beginning, which is why the Nicene Creed has the qualifier “…born of the Father before all ages…”

Begetting implies a coming from and having the same nature as, which is to distinguish begetting from making or creating – which is to bring into existence some other entity or being. A man and woman beget a child, but God creates that child.
 
I could recommend a book for you, Benadam – actually, an entertaining novel and winner of the 2014 International Book Award for historical fiction – but I’m not sure it is kosher for me to do that on this website.
 
“I think some people might call it heretical, but I do not believe that Jesus claimed to be God in Matthew, Mark or Luke. The titles given to him are only ever “Son of Man”, “Son of God” , “Messiah” , “Christ” or “King of the Jews”, none of which mean he is God. Nor does he in any way hint at preexistence.
Even in the Gospel of John he only ever claims preexistence and never explicitly says “I am God”. One obvious objection to this is John 20:28, when Thomas says “My Lord and My God!” in front of Jesus. But reading this subtly I think it is only Thomas proclaiming something already taught by Jesus; that if you see him, you see the father. Jesus is the one sent into the world to make God known to men.
It is obvious to me that the doctrine that Jesus was God is a later development logically following from the belief found in John that Jesus always existed, that he came down from heaven etc.
That being said, I do believe this is a natural development of doctrine which God revealed gradually to the early church.
EDIT: I am not asking for a debate. I have considered every supposed trinitarian proof text and have come to my conclusion. All I am asking is whether this view would be accepted by the church.”
 
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