The Trinity - monotheistic or tritheistic?

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Happy Idul Fitri to the Muslims,

God is one and He becomes Human named Jesus, Because He is so great He still dwells in Heaven even though He already become human and that Human is still God( no one has right to tell He is not God anymore because He becomes human) and Holy Spirit is also God because it’s His Spirit. He is still one even He becomes more than one human or another things and appears at the same time (Who can stop Him to do anything he likes anyway). However, He becomes a human named Jesus. Not all believe that God become human named Jesus (which shows me the great love of God) but no one can deny that God can do that. That’s what we believe…God do that. Peace.
 
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nico1089:
This doesn’t work. Father+ Son +Holy Spirit is not 1x1x1. That’s like orange x apple x potato. Three different species.
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Their essence and their likeness is God. God is eternal and there can only be One Eternal. Because they share the same essence, it is not wrong to say they are the same “species”. Christ did not lose His Godhood when He became man. God never loses His true identity. 1+1+1 would be for different species.
 
“The mystery of the Most Holy Trinity is the central mystery of the Christian faith and life” (CCC 234).

It is easy to misunderstand this doctrine. People ask, “Is God one, or is he three?” or “Don’t Christians pray to three Gods: Father, Son and Holy Spirit?” The key to resolving this is to consider in what sense God is one, and in what sense, three. Christian theology has clarified this by the use of the terms nature and person. God is one because he posseses a single, divine nature, the nature of God. (Alan Schreck, The Essential Catholic Cathechism)

The one God exists as three Persons who are distinct but undivided, since each Person fully posseses the same divine nature, the nature of God. (Pope John Paul II)
 
We, Christians do not worship three Gods. We understand that we do not worship three Gods but one God. It really is not apporpriate for others to tell us what we beleive and change the meaning.

The Trinity is a “mystery” That said, I believe that much confusion lies in the use of the word ‘person or persons’. This come from the Greek persona. This is a term that does not mean persons as in Tom, Dick and Harry or Jane, Sally and Grace. Persona describes an attribute or the relationship. For example: I am someones child, a daughter. I am also a sister, niece, aunt, wife, mother, and grandmother. I am also an employer and have been an employee. I am a Christian and a US citizen and a taxpayer. The personas I have are many and various. But for all of that, I am me, one person, who is all these things, many of them simultaneuosly. Even our Moslem brethren and Mohammed (PBUH) are one person with a multiplicity of personas. Son, daughter, prophet, husband, wife etc*.*

The real mystery is not how God is Trinity, one nature, three persons *[personas] *but how the perfection of God is expressed in the three. We are ‘created in the image and likeness of God.’ In Genesis, God said ‘let us make man in our image’ ‘In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.’ God spoke [the Word] all of creation into being! Now that is mystery. Something to pray and meditate upon in order to deepen out relationship with God
 
As it seems the concept of the Trinity is the most commonly discussed topic on this forum I thought I would add my comments that I made earlier on another thread (The Quran says…so why is it not followed? Post #33) here as this is probably the more appropriate place for them.

“I am still waiting for evidence that the Trinity changed the fact that there is only one God. It has been repeated ad nausem that it “changed”; yet no evidence of a “change” has ever been presented. Human understanding advanced, but as has been repeatedly pointed out additional explanation of a concept does NOT change the basics of the concept.

Allow me to demonstrate how additional understanding does not change the facts; if a small child were to ask you why the sky is blue how would you answer? “It has to do with light being made up of all the colors of the rainbow, but blue being the color which travels best and farthest in the sky.”, or would you say; “The blue color of the sky is due to Rayleigh scattering. As light moves through the atmosphere, most of the longer wavelengths pass straight through. Little of the red, orange and yellow light is affected by the air. However, much of the shorter wavelength light is absorbed by the gas molecules. The absorbed blue light is then radiated in different directions. It gets scattered all around the sky. Whichever direction you look, some of this scattered blue light reaches you. Since you see the blue light from everywhere overhead, the sky looks blue.”? The second explanation is a far more advanced understanding, but does not change the fact that the sky looks blue.

When dealing with a people who have historically been polytheistic the essential message is that there is only one God. Once monotheism has been established their capacity to understand the true Trinitarian nature of God can be explained without them falling back into erroneous belief of multiple gods.

Why is this concept so hard? I am afraid I once again must admit that it is my opinion that it is not a failing with the concept, but a refusal to even try and understand.

On another thread the moderator asked everyone to accept the fact that Muslims do not wish Islam to be called Mohamadism, regardless of some peoples interpretation of Islam. Why can’t you accept the fact that Christians believe in only one God?”

Peace

George
 
George,

Good post and great example. There are always simple and complex answers and the in betweens. 👍

Pax
 
The length of this thread bespeaks the difficulty in both understanding God and expressing the nature of God. No matter what any of us do, there are limitations in that regard. I try to understand the doctrine of the Trinity as follows: Therse is one God. That God is Love (so says the Bible). God as Love by its nature presumes a beloved - another. Hence God the Father who begets God the Son. Through the nature of God as Love, the Sprirt proceeds from the Father through the Son. The human family is an icon - an image - of God. A man and a woman join in matrimony and become one flesh - two persons, yet one. Through the mutual love of the man and woman proceeds the child who is is a separate human being, but flesh of the parents. THE FAMILY IS AN IMAGE OF GOD - imperfect, but an image that captures something of the essence of God. Of course, no imgae of God is absolutely complete. God transcendant who created the heavens and earth is the same God immanent who became one of us who are the same as the Spirit who suffuses creation. I believe the Trinity is true because I believe God is love; because I believe God is immanent (Jesus Christ) and works today in all we do as we cooperate with God in the creation through our love for God and our fellow human beings. The Trinity is a lens into Gods nature and ours. The language we use - human language - is always somewhat limited in its ability to describe the nature of God. Yet, Trinity - one God in three persons - is a remarkably powerful description that within it enables us to understand God, our relationship to God and our relationship to each other as a family - one and separate as God is three Persons in One God.
 
George Waters:
Why can’t you accept the fact that Christians believe in only one God?”
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I do acknowledge christians believe in one God, I am not here to tell christians what their beliefs are or should be, I only started this thread to examine through ration and reason if the trinity can be proven to be monotheistic. The thread naturally went on to discuss the rationale of the trinity itself.

But after many posts and replies, i did not feel it had been proven successfully, rather i noticed differing among the posts regarding some issues related to the doctrine (such as how to understand omnipresence), and some very weak arguments, and some posts which were a good effort such as those from itsjustdave. Finally, Nico posted these words from st. Thomas:
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nico1089:
Hi–Acording to St. Thomas Aquinas in his “Summa Theologia” “Natural reason cannot discover thr Trinity of persons in God;…”**Trying to prove the Trinity by reason would injure the faith by denying the surpassing dignity of it’s subject matter, making it a laughing-stock to unbelievers who would think our faith relied on such unconvincing arguments. ** The only way of proving matters of faith is to quote authorities who accept them; to those who don’t, we must be content to show that what the faith teaches is not impossible."
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After this, i didnt see a need to post anymore as his words are quite clear, this concept isnt meant to be proven intellectually but that one must just have faith in it. So the discussion is done in my opinion.
 
After this, i didnt see a need to post anymore as his words are quite clear, this concept isnt meant to be proven intellectually but that one must just have faith in it. So the discussion is done in my opinion.
I agree. One last comment. St Thomas was sitting by the seaside contemplating the Trinity when he noticed a young boy pouring ocean water into a hole in the sand. He asked the youngster what he was doing and the boy replied,“I am going to pour the whole ocean into this hole.” St, Thomas laughed at this and said,“You will never be able to pour the whole ocean into that hole.” The boy replied,“I have a better chance of pouring the ocean into this hole than you do of understanding the Trinity.” and with the uttering of these words he vanished.
And now so will I.
 
Sorry the above posting should have been attributed to an experience of Saint Agustine, not St. Thomas. Pardon my memopry lapse.
 
Can He still be one if He become human, go down to the world but still in heaven at the same time? Of course, He can. Nothing can break or deny or split His oneness. No matter what He do, He is one.
 
Hashi,

The part about not accepting the fact Christians believe in only one God was actually directed to someone else on the original thread I posted those comments on. In retrospect I should have removed that section when I added the quote on this thread. I did not mean to accuse you. My apologies.

Peace

George
 
If you think of water it can be three substance:
  • Gas (Water Vapour)
  • Liquid (Aqua)
  • Solid (Ice)
All is still the ONE water just that it can exist as all three substaces. This is like God. God is the water ( the over all substance, The ONE) which can exist as three:
  • The Holy Spirit ---- Gas
  • The Father ----- Liquid ------> All 1 in different form
  • Jesus -----Solid
Am not saying God is water by the way…But I read this somewhere ages ago and it made me understand alot more because its using something I can touch and test out my self.

So go and get a glass of water and make it gas ( you get the holy spirit) make the same water back in to liquid ( you get the Holy Father) and freeze it to ice ( and you get Jesus) now tell me if its the same glass of water (one - Monotheistic)or more that one?

Hope that helps

Fellicia x x x
 
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fellicia:
If you think of water it can be three substance:
  • Gas (Water Vapour)
  • Liquid (Aqua)
  • Solid (Ice)
All is still the ONE water just that it can exist as all three substaces. This is like God. God is the water ( the over all substance, The ONE) which can exist as three:
  • The Holy Spirit ---- Gas
  • The Father ----- Liquid ------> All 1 in different form
  • Jesus -----Solid
Am not saying God is water by the way…But I read this somewhere ages ago and it made me understand alot more because its using something I can touch and test out my self.

So go and get a glass of water and make it gas ( you get the holy spirit) make the same water back in to liquid ( you get the Holy Father) and freeze it to ice ( and you get Jesus) now tell me if its the same glass of water (one - Monotheistic)or more that one?

Hope that helps

Fellicia x x x
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water can not exist in all three states at the same time. So either there is Jesus (using your analogy as the “solid”) OR there is God the Father (“liquid”) OR the Holy spirit (vapor).

But the same water can not exist as all three AT THE SAME TIME.
 
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Faith101:
water can not exist in all three states at the same time. So either there is Jesus (using your analogy as the “solid”) OR there is God the Father (“liquid”) OR the Holy spirit (vapor).

But the same water can not exist as all three AT THE SAME TIME.
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YES, BUT GOD CAN! Again you’re reiterating that God is not omnipotent, that he can only do what Muslims say He can do or think He can do!
 
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Booklover:
YES, BUT GOD CAN! Again you’re reiterating that God is not omnipotent, that he can only do what Muslims say He can do or think He can do!
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God does what He wants to do. He says He is ONE with NO partners, we believe Him. He says it does not befit His majesty to lie, we believe Him. He says it does not befit His magesty to have a son. We believe Him. He says it does not befit His majesty to come down to earth and be slaughtered by a bunch of disbelievers…WE BELIEVE HIM.

He tells us He will make TRUTH clear from ERROR, we believe Him.

I know I asked this before, but I dont remember the answer that I got. Do Christians believe that God lies?

In any case, an analogy that does not fit should not be used to explain the unexplainable.
 
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Faith101:
God does what He wants to do. He says He is ONE with NO partners, we believe Him. He says it does not befit His majesty to lie, we believe Him. He says it does not befit His magesty to have a son. We believe Him. He says it does not befit His majesty to come down to earth and be slaughtered by a bunch of disbelievers…WE BELIEVE HIM.

He tells us He will make TRUTH clear from ERROR, we believe Him.

I know I asked this before, but I dont remember the answer that I got. Do Christians believe that God lies?

In any case, an analogy that does not fit should not be used to explain the unexplainable.
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No God does not lie

Don’t forget Genesis 1:26 Then God said: "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness.

In Christ,
Catholic Guy
 
Jesus said that He and the Father are one, that before Abraham was I AM. He is God the Son and the Son of God. We believe Him. Praise be the Thrice Holy Trinity.
 
Catholic Guy:
No God does not lie

Don’t forget Genesis 1:26 Then God said: "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness.

In Christ,
Catholic Guy
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If I told you that by you saying that God does not lie, you are limiting His power…what would you think? You’ll be able to understand wht Muslims are thinking when Christians tell them that.

You are referring to the usage of “us” and “our” which was used (and IS used today in the arabic language) to denote power. A single being speaking in the plural…which you can see all throughtout the Quran as well.
 
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