The Trinity - monotheistic or tritheistic?

[Faith101]

cestusdei:

Jesus said that He and the Father are one, that before Abraham was I AM. He is God the Son and the Son of God. We believe Him. Praise be the Thrice Holy Trinity.

I’m not denying that there is some evidence in the Bible to say that Jesus is God. However there is just as much evidence to say that he is ONLY a messenger. Either way, the Bible is inconvlusive.

For example, you mentioned “i and the father are one” well there is also “the father is greater than me”…and so many other examples of how Jesus peace be upon him responded to certain questions.

Praise be to God, the one and only.

 

[nico1089]

Facts, doctrine and dogma are meaningless unless a person ‘believes’. When there are two different belief systems, debate is unfruitful. To step “out of the box” means to give up your belief system, something that requires revelation and not human debate.–nicolo

 

[hlgomez]

Hiall,

I understand some posters here try to make use of analogies about God, and the critics (muslims) want to dismantle their arguments. To put it plainly, analogies of anykind cannot fullt explain the mystery of God. It can only aid us in understanding a little bit of the mystery. Nothing in the created world can explain God, who He is in His fullness. Even when we go to heaven and see Him face to face, we still will not be able to comprehend Him fullyfor all eternity. For if you or anybody who is just a created being would say that you understand God fully, then you are making yourself equal to God, thus you are proclaiming yourself to be God–an utter blasphemy. Only Jesus Christ said that “no one knows the Father except the Son, and no one knows the Son except the Father…” Jesus, the second person of the Trinity could only make that claim because He came from the Father.

If muslims here try to narrow down their understanding of the Creator by rejecting His mystery and the revelations of Jesus Christ, then the danger is it makes them hard to accept the revelation itself, thus rejecting any of the revealed truth.

Praise be Isa Ibnu Allah!

Pio

 

[Catholic_Guy]

Faith101:

If I told you that by you saying that God does not lie, you are limiting His power…what would you think? You’ll be able to understand wht Muslims are thinking when Christians tell them that.

I said God does not lie, I did not say that he did not have the power to lie. What reason would he possibly have to lie?

You are referring to the usage of “us” and “our” which was used (and IS used today in the arabic language) to denote power. A single being speaking in the plural…which you can see all throughtout the Quran as well.

The “us” and “our” are used in the Hebrew Language, not Arabic. The passage says God not Gods.

I’m not denying that there is some evidence in the Bible to say that Jesus is God. However there is just as much evidence to say that he is ONLY a messenger. Either way, the Bible is inconvlusive.

Yes the Bible is inconclusive without the Catholic Tradition or Early Church Fathers writings. These traditions and writings pre-date Islam by 600+ years.

Food for thought,
Catholic Guy

 

[John-the-Seeker]

For what it is worth. Whether this will add clairity for some of fuel to the fire for others, I do not know. I offer it only as food for thought.
A partial quote from message number **407 The Number of The Beast ** through Fr. Gobi, attributed to the Blessed Mother of God.
“333 indicated thrice, that is to say for the third time, indicates the mystery of the Three Divine Persons, that is to say, it expresses the mystery of the Most Holy Trinity.”

“666 indicated once, that is to say, for the first time, expresses the year 666, six hundred and sixty-six. In this period of history, the Antichrist is manifested through the phenomenon of Islam, which directly denies the mystery of the Divine Trinity and the Divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ. Islamism, with its military force breaks loose everywhere, destroying all the ancient Christian communities, and invades Europe, and it is only through my extraordinary motherly intervention, begged for powerfully by the Holy Father, that it does not succeed in destroying Christianity completely.”

 

[Ignatius]

Hashi Al-Eritre:

Christianity has always claimed to be monotheistic, but im struggling to understand how the trinity is a monotheistic concept. If the claim is that ‘God is 3 persons in 1’ then from what i see it is actually a tritheistic concept (the belief that there are three equally powerful gods who form a triad).

I would like an explanation from the christian perspective on the trinity and how it is not ‘tritheistic’.

Peace be with you. Actually that is incorrect. There is but one God. It is the God of Abraham (peace be upon him). The trinity is the attempt to explain certain details of God in terms that our finite minds can comprehend.

Peace be with you.

 

[Hashi_Al-Eritre]

John-the-Seeker:

Islamism, with its military force breaks loose everywhere, destroying all the ancient Christian communities, and invades Europe, and it is only through my extraordinary motherly intervention, begged for powerfully by the Holy Father, that it does not succeed in destroying Christianity completely."

The Prophet Muhammed (peace be upon him) and his companions did destroy idols and did prevent paganism in the land, but the Prophet never stoped the Jews and christians from worshiping in their churches and synagoges and did not allow for the destruction of churches and synagoges.

In the reign of Umar of Ibn Al-Khattab, the religious freedom of the citizens of Ilya (Jerusalem) and the sanctity of their synagogues and places of worship were confirmed: “This is the protection which the slave-servant of Allah, Umar, the Commander of the Believers, extends to the people of Ilya: **The safeguarding of their lives, properties, churches, crosses, and of their entire community. Their churches cannot be occupied, demolished, or damaged, nor are their crosses or anything belonging to them to be touched. They will never be forced to abandon their religion, nor will they be oppressed. None of the Jews will live with them in Ilya….” ** (At-Tabari, Tarikh, Vol III, p. 609, ed. Dar Al-Ma`arif, Egypt.)

Other indirect proofs:

‘Umar ibn Khattab also said (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: “We do not enter your churches because of the statues and pictures that are in them.”

Ibn ‘Abbaas (may Allaah be pleased with them both) used to pray in churches except for those in which there were statues and pictures. (Reported by al-Bukhaari, 1/112)

So Islam did not try to destroy christian communities. Christians who lived under the Islamic state received the right to worship in their churches.

 

[greg_samsa]

hello i’m new to the forums. I was reading these posts and I thought maybe I could add my thoughts about the subject of the trinity. I think that maybe I can help offer clarity to what I believe is one of the most lively and mysterious concepts ever formulaled on how humankind relates to the creator and master of the universe and all things and ages,theLORD God.

first I am Roman Rite and Ive recieved my conclusions by studying
scripture and the church fathers like St. Ambrose and St. Augustine so I’m going to use terminology related to my background.
What do Christians mean when they say trinity or tri unity of GOD
Im going to try a different approach
what do the words in themselves actually mean?
Latin has an advantage over all other languages in that the meanings of its specific words have not changed in centuries.
for example :CREDO IN UNUM DEUM OMNIPOTENTEM
it means what it says and when the magistra writes anything about a subject she does so with specific definition in mind.

with that said I’m just going to express what I happen to believe about this particular subject

who made the world? GOD made the world.
GOD exists who is without begining,indescribable, incomprehensible,who is beyond every created essence. He is the cause(the reason for being) of all things as well as the end purpose of all things ,visible and invisible. We are creatures in the midst of creation ,spiritually blind to the world of Spirit. We all by propagation(that is generational reproduction) are in a state of fallen separation from this world of spirit.

well back to the subject
analogical knowledge of the mysteries of the faith
“the fathers of the Church always emphasized the inability of the human reason to discover or even to represent adequately the mysteries of the faith and insisted on the necessity of analogical conceptions in their representations and expressions…” from CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA ;analogy

When we call god father this rejects the idea of confounding the world with God. (pantheism) God the father created the world outside of his essence
ST.Augustine said “it is difficult to contemplate and fully know the substance of GOD; who fashions things changeable,yet without any change in himself, and creates things temporal , yet without any temporal movement in himself.”

so what is it? does God exist only outside of the world (the consquence of which would result in idoltry)or only within the world
(which will reject god as a father)

one must see that GOD means the ruler and provider of all things…everything in this world is governed and provided for by him…
within the pages of Holy Scripture the presence of God is everywhere (genesis 18:16 exodus 3 :14 daniel 9:3 just to name a few essential verses within the history of salvation)

just think about it awhile the Spirit of GOD entering within the world of creation ruling the spirit world of angels ;redeemer or judge ;the throne of GOD , proceeding futher into the material world himself calling back humanity to redemption . this is Agape
a love we can only begin to feel because we have been cut off from it.

All that exists outside God was , in its whole substance, produced out of nothing by God. the three divine persons are one single common principle of creation.
and in most scriptural translations when God makes something it means forming out of some material all ready existing

when God creates this means to bring forth out of nothing ;as only god alone can do

 

[Deo_Volente]

Grace & Peace!
Hashi Al-Eritre:

God isnt encompassed by time. Time is something created by God… so time doesnt affect God, it affects His creation. We think in terms of time because we are incompassed by it.

…

Ok, if thats so, then when did God first start ‘creating us moment to moment’? I mean if you wanna claim im being irrational in using the word ‘Created’ (past tense), then explain to me how your gonna run away from the fact God did create us at some point in time… because we certainly werent created from eternity.

Hashi, I just wanted to point out that the notion you champion in your first paragraph is at odds with the notion you champion in the second. God may have created time, but his creative action is not within time. God’s creative action is eternal, not fixed, because it abides in the Eternal Present (in which God can be said to metaphorically reside). I refer you to Rumi: “Past and future are what veil God from our eyes. Why must you be separated as by reeds? Burn up both of them with fire.”

This is why the Son is said to be eternally begotten of the Father in the Nicene creed. The action of begetting is eternal–and this word “begetting” describes a kind of relationship that God has with Godself. And this is one of the radical things about the Christian understanding of Deity–God is a relationship of love, God gives God to God, and this love, this sharing, bubbles over to us, we who were created in order to share this love. Personhood in God refers to an aspect of relationship within God–can love be complete without Lover, Beloved, and the Love they share?

But all of this explanation is looking through the glass darkly. It would be best not to speak too much about holy mysteries that may be profaned through misunderstanding or mischaracterization. The Nicene Creed is enough.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

Deo Gratias!

 

[FCEGM]

Deo Volente:

This is why the Son is said to be eternally begotten of the Father in the Nicene creed. The action of begetting is eternal–and this word “begetting” describes a kind of relationship that God has with Godself. And this is one of the radical things about the Christian understanding of Deity–God is a relationship of love, God gives God to God, and this love, this sharing, bubbles over to us, we who were created in order to share this love. Personhood in God refers to an aspect of relationship within God–can love be complete without Lover, Beloved, and the Love they share?
. . .

A very important point, Mark.

Our late Holy Father, John Paul II, spoke of this Mystery as one revealing that God, while One, is never alone:

God in His deepest mystery is not a solitude, but a family, since He has in Himself fatherhood, sonship, and the essence of the family, which is love.

God is a Community of Persons, and it is in this Divine Communion that man finds the fulfillment of his desire for communion with another. It is only because of the “First” Communion of the Divine Persons that our communion is possible with one another and with the Divine Persons. These Persons have no need for Communion with one creature, let alone millions, yet out of the fruitfulness of the impenetrating Love within the Godhead we have been created to participate in that Divine Communion (primary) and communion with each other (secondary).

A great mystery, a mystery of love, an ineffable mystery, before which words must give way to the silence of wonder and worship. A divine mystery that challenges and involves us, because a share in the Trinitarian life was given to us through grace, through the redemptive Incarnation of the Word and the gift of the Holy Spirit: ‘Anyone who loves me will be true to my word, and my Father will love him; we will come to him and make our dwelling-place with him’ (Jn 14: 23). John Paul II.

 

[Hashi_Al-Eritre]

Deo Volente:

Hashi, I just wanted to point out that the notion you champion in your first paragraph is at odds with the notion you champion in the second. God may have created time, but his creative action is not within time. God’s creative action is eternal, not fixed, because it abides in the Eternal Present (in which God can be said to metaphorically reside). I refer you to Rumi: “Past and future are what veil God from our eyes. Why must you be separated as by reeds? Burn up both of them with fire.”

In Islam we believe God is not bound by time thus He Sees, Hears, and has Knowledge of the past, present and future. With regards to His actions, we believe it is under His Will. Whenever He wills to speak, to create, to decree, etc, He does.

If one wants to claim God is eternally doing all actions, such the act of Creating, the act of Decreeing, the act of Speaking (such as when He spoke to Moses or when He speaks to His Angels), etc, this doesnt aid in maintaining God’s Perfection. It is from the Perfection of God that He creates, decrees, speaks, etc, whenever He wishes and pleases. It isnt required of God that He has to eternally do all his actions in order to be able to create and decree. God eternally possesses the characteristic of Creating, Decreeing, Speaking, and all the rest of His actions, but to say He is also eternally performing these actions is really a bazzare concept, which brings me to my next point.

I am struggling to understand how one can make sense of saying ‘God is eternally creating’ or eternally doing any of his other actions. And i ask again, how do you explain the creation of the heavens and earth then? Because if God is eternally creating, then the heavens and the earth then did not have a beginning. And If he is eternally creating, then what about destroying? Is He also eternally destroying?

And what about the other actions of God, such as decreeing and speaking? Because if you say one of the actions of God is eternally happening (ie. creating), you have to say the rest of His actions are eternally happening too. God spoke directly to Moses for example, obviously that speech was not eternally happening, rather God willed to speak to Moses at that particular time, by His Will. And God speaks when He wishes and as He wishes.

God said in the Quran: “And when Moses came to Our appointed time and place, and his Lord spoke with him…” (7:143).

And likewise for every other Decree of God, small or great, that has happened and that will happen. God decrees things to happen at their appointed time:

God says in the Quran, “Verily, His Command, whenever He intends a thing, is only that He says, ‘Be!’ - and it is” (37:82).

The proper way to understand the attributes of God is to affirm that all of God’s attributes are eternal, perfect, and uncreated, including those attributes related to His Actions. However, when it comes to His Actions, they are under His Will, He performs them whenever He wills. This doesnt mean God is constained by time, because God Sees, Hears, and Knows all things past, present and future. And as God said in the Quran “There is nothing like Him, and He is the All-Hearing, the All-Seeing” (42:11). But it also doesnt mean God has to be eternally doing everything , even when those things have already happened. Rather, it is from the perfection of God that His actions occur as He wills, when He wills.

continued…

 

[Hashi_Al-Eritre]

continued…

This is why the Son is said to be eternally begotten of the Father in the Nicene creed. The action of begetting is eternal–and this word “begetting” describes a kind of relationship that God has with Godself.

This has been repeated many times on this thread. I am now being lead to believe this has to be some metaphorical speech, cause theres no way for anyone to begin to understand how God is eternally begetting Jesus yet Jesus already lived on earth and as christians believe ‘died and was resurrected and raised up to heaven and is with the Father’.

But all of this explanation is looking through the glass darkly. It would be best not to speak too much about holy mysteries that may be profaned through misunderstanding or mischaracterization. The Nicene Creed is enough.

How do you tell a truthseeker to believe in a mystery? how does one judge the truth of a doctrine if its a mystery? Because the nature of a mystery is that one must just have faith in it, it cannot be analyzed or understood. It cannot be critiqued because any attempt at critiquing it will lead one to reply ‘its a mystery and youre just supposed to believe in it’, as has been said so often.

No, that isnt how i choose to believe in God, and my hereafter is too precious of a thing to rely on a mystery, especially if that mystery is colliding with my reason (a tool God gave me to judge things in life with). If i am going to believe in something, especially regarding God, it must be rationally acceptable to my mind, then i can put my faith and support into it. This is how we realize the truth, because truth can never be irrational and opposed to reason. But then, look at what st. Thomas said, as i quoted earlier. I respect his honesty in how he described the trinity in relation to reason. Just told it like it is. So you’re right,

*It would be best not to speak too much about holy mysteries * that may be profaned through misunderstanding or mischaracterization.

 

[Deo_Volente]

Grace & Peace!
Hashi Al-Eritre:

I am struggling to understand how one can make sense of saying ‘God is eternally creating’ or eternally doing any of his other actions. And i ask again, how do you explain the creation of the heavens and earth then? Because if God is eternally creating, then the heavens and the earth then did not have a beginning. And If he is eternally creating, then what about destroying? Is He also eternally destroying?
…

He performs them whenever He wills. This doesnt mean God is constained by time, because God Sees, Hears, and Knows all things past, present and future. And as God said in the Quran “There is nothing like Him, and He is the All-Hearing, the All-Seeing” (42:11). But it also doesnt mean God has to be eternally doing everything , even when those things have already happened. Rather, it is from the perfection of God that His actions occur as He wills, when He wills.

Hashi, I think we’re getting hung up on terminology with the result of saying two incompatible things at the same time. When we speaking of “eternity” we do not speak of a state of being or experience that admits a concept of “whenever”. “Whenever” could refer to time, it can refer to a state of indefinite duration, but it cannot refer to eternity. Eternity is outside of all “when” and “whenever”. To speak, then, of God willing things “when” God wills is to see God’s action from our own perspective and impose time on the eternal. The Eternal Present of God is not perpetual time. Time is swallowed up in eternity, fulfilled in eternity.

To say, then, that God is “eternally creating” is not to say that God “keeps doing it”–because this implies that God is subject to a linear/sequential experience of time/history and is bound to “do” over and over and over again. This is not true. God eternally creates because God creates in eternity–and he does not create multiple times, he simply creates and this action is eternal and outside all notions of duration and/or linearity.

Taking this idea a bit further, it is reasonable to suggest that one cannot actually speak of God’s actions–one can speak only of God’s action. Singular. If there is no multiplicity in God’s being (as there is not, and the doctrine of the Trinity affirms this), if God’s Essence is One, if God’s Will is singular, God’s Action will likewise be singular. God “does” one thing and one thing only that is interpreted by us or seen by us in this valley of tears as multiple. But the action is essentially one.

And what is this action? I would argue that it is God. That is–God “does” God in eternity. And creation is a part of this God-Doing of God–perhaps a revelation of God to what is Not God, perhaps something else entirely, but is God Doing God, part of the mystery of God giving Godself to God. Who is the Doer? God. What is the Thing Done? God. Who witnesses It? God. Who receives It? God.
Hashi Al-Eritre:

theres no way for anyone to begin to understand how God is eternally begetting Jesus yet Jesus already lived on earth and as christians believe ‘died and was resurrected and raised up to heaven and is with the Father’

I think this betrays something of a misunderstanding regarding the dual nature of Jesus. Jesus is the union in the flesh of God and Man: Jesus has a dual nature, therefore–God and Man. The Son is eternally begotten of the Father–Jesus was born of the Virgin Mary at a particular point in time and is the Word/Son of God incarnate–God identifying with God’s creation in order to bring it into union with Himself. Or, as Athanasius writes–God became Man that Man might become God. Or, as Maximos the Confessor writes–What God is by Nature, we shall be by Grace. This incarnation, this identification, this marriage, was accomplished in time in the flesh of Jesus the Christ. This does not change the spiritual fact that the Son is eternally begotten of the Father.
Hashi Al-Eritre:

How do you tell a truthseeker to believe in a mystery? how does one judge the truth of a doctrine if its a mystery? Because the nature of a mystery is that one must just have faith in it, it cannot be analyzed or understood. It cannot be critiqued because any attempt at critiquing it will lead one to reply ‘its a mystery and youre just supposed to believe in it’, as has been said so often.

How else does one speak of the Unknowable but in a mystery? The nature of the mystery is to communicate what cannot be communicated. It does not demand belief, it does not scorn analysis. It is an invitation to consider the Brilliant Darkness of God. A mystery demands engagement and experience. It is not a mere fact to be assented to. It is a revelation of the metacosmic nature of Divinity.

Hashi, I can appreciate your struggle to understand. Struggle is a blessing. “Your yearning pain is My messenger to you.”

Under the Mercy,
Mark

Deo Gratias!

 

[Booklover]

Hashi Al-Eritre:

continued…
No, that isnt how i choose to believe in God, and my hereafter is too precious of a thing to rely on a mystery, especially if that mystery is colliding with my reason (a tool God gave me to judge things in life with). If i am going to believe in something, especially regarding God, it must be rationally acceptable to my mind, then i can put my faith and support into it. This is how we realize the truth, because truth can never be irrational and opposed to reason. But then, look at what st. Thomas said, as i quoted earlier. I respect his honesty in how he described the trinity in relation to reason. Just told it like it is. So you’re right,

Hashi, could you create the earth and everything on it? Or the universe? Could you create man from nothing? If you cannot do any of those things, how do you expect to understand all about God?

How can you accept only the things about God that you can understand? That’s irrational. There is no way that we can be on a par with God. God is God and we are his creation and there is no way that our intelligence can comprehend all that God is.

Vickie

 

[greg_samsa]

God exists
All things are possible with GOD.
There is no limit to his power.
And no one else rules the universe except God alone;not an angel not a seraph.
Only the LORD God rules.
If God the father created the heavens and the earth and his presence rules the entire kosmos ; in this manifestation he is the Son.

 

[Hashi_Al-Eritre]

Deo Volente:

To say, then, that God is “eternally creating” is not to say that God “keeps doing it”–because this implies that God is subject to a linear/sequential experience of time/history and is bound to “do” over and over and over again. This is not true. God eternally creates because God creates in eternity–and he does not create multiple times, he simply creates and this action is eternal and outside all notions of duration and/or linearity.

Taking this idea a bit further, it is reasonable to suggest that one cannot actually speak of God’s actions–one can speak only of God’s action. Singular. If there is no multiplicity in God’s being (as there is not, and the doctrine of the Trinity affirms this), if God’s Essence is One, if God’s Will is singular, God’s Action will likewise be singular. God “does” one thing and one thing only that is interpreted by us or seen by us in this valley of tears as multiple. But the action is essentially one.

And what is this action? I would argue that it is God. That is–God “does” God in eternity. And creation is a part of this God-Doing of God–perhaps a revelation of God to what is Not God, perhaps something else entirely, but is God Doing God, part of the mystery of God giving Godself to God. Who is the Doer? God. What is the Thing Done? God. Who witnesses It? God. Who receives It? God.

I do not intend to sound insulting, and others have replied to me with very difficult to comprehend posts before on this thread, but your reply above has to be the most difficult of them all. God ‘does’ God? God giving Godself to God? The thing done by God is God? This sounds more like advanced philosophy and greek logic than it does Prophetic doctrine.

From what i generally understood from your explanation above is that God’s action is one action, that everything God does is actually done at once, but its done eternally. I am just writting what i understand in words. I cant even begin to understand it with my mind.

I dont know greek logic or philosophy, i dont have a doctorate in theology, i believe the doctrine of God is a simple matter, easy for the mind to accept and for the heart to believe, any human being whether he/she is a genius or not so bright can understand how to believe in God and His Names and Attributes.

Taking this into consideration, how to believe in God’s Actions is a simple matter. What makes it simple is when we are able to relate how to believe in God’s actions to the actual happenings we see around us, while still maintaining God’s infinite Perfection and Ability. So we may speak of the creation of the Universe as an Act of God, thats easy for anyone to accept. However when one says God’s Action is One action, in that everything that has happened and will happen and is happening is by One action, how does one begin to relate that to what he/she sees and witnesses?

Again, like the ‘God eternally begotten the Son’ statement, it becomes more of a allegorical or symbolic type of statement that cant and should never be used to explain the actual events and happenings that we have witnessed and will witness.

 

[Hashi_Al-Eritre]

Booklover:

Hashi, could you create the earth and everything on it? Or the universe? Could you create man from nothing? If you cannot do any of those things, how do you expect to understand all about God?

How can you accept only the things about God that you can understand? That’s irrational. There is no way that we can be on a par with God. God is God and we are his creation and there is no way that our intelligence can comprehend all that God is.

Vickie

This is not about understanding the Nature of God because thats delving into what God is in detail, substance, form, etc. Nobody has the right to ask how God creates or how God sees or how God is in nature, etc. Only God possesses that knowledge about Himself.

Rather, this is about understanding how to Believe in God, this is about doctrine and system of belief. And as i have said many times already, how to believe in God must be rational and reasonable, easily acceptable to ones mind and heart. It shouldnt be shrouded with ‘mystery’, especially if that ‘mystery’ collides with sound reason. Anyone can invent a doctrine and shroud it with a whole bunch of philosophy and mystery. But God made His system of belief clear and rational so that the truthseeker can distinguish it from the rest of the false doctrines.

What i have learned throughout the history of this thread is that christians should not argue the trinity through means of intellectual reasoning, because the trinity by nature is a mystery and its system cannot be understood in terms of reason. It is a doctrine one must just put his/her faith in. As soon as one starts to try and rationally explain it, they either confuse the individual or lead them to doubt the concept.

 

[r.gonzales]

Deo Volente:

Taking this idea a bit further, it is reasonable to suggest that one cannot actually speak of God’s actions–one can speak only of God’s action. Singular. If there is no multiplicity in God’s being (as there is not, and the doctrine of the Trinity affirms this), if God’s Essence is One, if God’s Will is singular, God’s Action will likewise be singular. God “does” one thing and one thing only that is interpreted by us or seen by us in this valley of tears as multiple. But the action is essentially one.

focusing on the part i’ve bolded, following this logic, shouldn’t you also be saying that Allah’s person is one as well, since, after all, you say there is no mutipicity in Allah’s being?

 

[Booklover]

Hashi Al-Eritre:

. Anyone can invent a doctrine and shroud it with a whole bunch of philosophy and mystery.

Do you mean like Mohammed did?

Hashi, trying to make God simple to understand could eventually lead you to agnosticism. The more you try to fathom the mystery that is God the harder it will become. As I said we are not meant to understand everything about God. Some things we just have to accept with faith.

I found this in my sunday missal and though it mentions human love, it deals with the theme of risk of faith and I believe could also apply to the mystery of the Trinity.

Engagement, betrothal, and marriage imply the faith that two young people have in one another. Though there are and should be reasons for this mutual faith, it cannot possibly be thought out logically. Attempting to do so would destroy the intuitive element of love in it. Dissecting a rose results in insight but kills the beautiful flower in the process. Applying this remark to our faith-relationship with God, we observe that faith is not understanding but taking the risk of the engagement. We have reasons for faith. In our best moments we intuitively we feel there must be a transcendent element in reality-- an ultimate reality. But the ultimate reason for faith escapes analytical thinking.

Vickie

P.S. To my fellow Catholics: I heartily recommend the New Saint Joseph Sunday Missal! It has wonderful explanations for all the readings and it’s beautifully illustrated throughout.

 

[Deo_Volente]

Grace & Peace!
Hashi Al-Eritre:

I do not intend to sound insulting, and others have replied to me with very difficult to comprehend posts before on this thread, but your reply above has to be the most difficult of them all. God ‘does’ God? God giving Godself to God? The thing done by God is God? This sounds more like advanced philosophy and greek logic than it does Prophetic doctrine.

You don’t sound insulting at all! I’m probably being a bit too obscure. I’ll try to explain my thinking here.

1–What God is to/for/with/in Godself is unknowable. Even calling it “God” is a misnomer because a name implies an understanding. The Kabbalists called God in Godself the Ayin, the Nothing, because it is Nothing like anything we could possibly know. It is not a thing. It is beyond Subject/Object. It is not being as we know it, it is not non-being as we can conceive of it. It is beyond them both.

2–Yet we “know” God. How is this possible? Through revelation. What God reveals of Godself, that we can know and call God, even though comprehending all of it may be beyond our ken–still it is comprehensible, if only in part. Meister Eckhart called God as God knows Godself “The Godhead”, distinguishing what cannot be spoken of by what can–God.

3–Revelation occurs in God first. I reference St. Anselm of Canterbury here, who wrote that the Word of God, the Son of God, is the ineffable Word by which God knows and understands Godself. The Father begets the Son, God speaks the Word, and God knows Godself.

4–Is the Word by which God knows Godself different from the Word by which God knows creation? Again, referencing Anselm, the answer is no. There is one Word, and in this Word is comprehended God and all creation. St. John writes in his preface to his Gospel regarding the Word, “All things were created through him,” and this is because all things are comprehended in him. Each individual thing finds its source in the revelation of God–the Word. And it is through the Word that God is connected to God’s creation–all of creation is the bride of God, spoken in union with God through the Word, a union perfectly accomplished and represented by the Word-Made-Flesh, Jesus Christ, who is, materially and spiritually, the union of God and creation. This mystical union of God and creation spoken forth by the Word is also represented symbolically by the marriage of the Lamb in the Apocalypse, or in the crowning of the Blessed Virgin (who represents uncorrupted nature/creation) as Queen of Heaven.

5–All things, therefore, are accomplished through the mystical speaking of the Word. The Word is eternally spoken. And this act is the sole Act of God by which all things are brought into being or go out of being because all things are comprehended in and by the One Word of God, the Only-Begotten Son of the Father. This Act is accomplished by the Father, through the Son, in the Holy Spirit. The Father acts, the Son is the agent of the action, the Spirit brings the action to fulfillment.

6–If there is one Act, how is it that we perceive multiple acts? God is radically One–there is One Essence. We are not one. We are subject to multiplicity. We do not perceive things on the same level as the Divine, the level of Principle. We see things through a glass darkly on this side of eternity. And our perception acts as a prism to white light, breaking the light into the spectrum. In this way, we perceive the One Act of God as a multiplicity. We can perceive in this world beauty and justice separately, we can perceive majesty and love separately, but we know that the Beauty, Majesty, Justice, and Love of God are all the same thing in God–they all find their source, their reason, their individual word/logos in the Word/Logos of God, because God’s Beauty is not different from God’s Love, Justice, or Majesty. In this way, we can also come to an understanding that the actions of God that we perceive all stem from God’s single and singular Action.

(CONTINUED…)