The Trinity - monotheistic or tritheistic?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Hashi_Al-Eritre
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Dear seekers of truth( and Love ),

may our hearts be truly open …

We too can be like the 'learned ’ at the time when The Father chose to reveal His Love , in and through The Son and many esp. the ‘learned’ who had their own ideas of what it has to , could not 'concieve ’ that God would actually come as one of us …
if we truly thirsting to get to know The Father, His Face has been revealed to us, in Jesus -'if you have seen Me , you have seen The Father "
“Before Abraham , I AM …”
Imagine , your baby, in your womb , is crying , hurting , lonely , miserable , even dead - and the only way to bring that baby to life is - for you , in some mysterious way if you can , be there , as tiny as that baby itself, give it life and love without scaring it , by being one with it …( well, one of many aphorisms , to ponder on The Love and humilility of Father Love .).for when we love, we want to be with…and share …give , if we are richer …and share more …

There has been many studies that has shown the biblical accuracy, even in the account of creation…www.creationevidence.org

Once we can accept it as all true , there can be such peace that come with it …
Yet the search can be long …like the trek to the Promised land …
May the likes of G.K Chesterton and all the many and varied help at numerous sites (www.ewtn.com-another good site ) can make it easier for the true seeker …
 
Hashi Al-Eritre:
Christianity has always claimed to be monotheistic, but im struggling to understand how the trinity is a monotheistic concept. If the claim is that ‘God is 3 persons in 1’ then from what i see it is actually a tritheistic concept (the belief that there are three equally powerful gods who form a triad).

I would like an explanation from the christian perspective on the trinity and how it is not ‘tritheistic’.
Click to expand...
From POST #186, what Gonzales and Hashi are saying is that it is irrational and illogical to claim that the Blessed Trinity is only One God. In their logic, the Blessed Trinity has to be 3 gods.
From time to time, often centuries apart, The Blessed Trinity grants some very holy CATHOLIC individuals with the GIFT OF BI-LOCATION — THE ABILITY TO BE IN 2 OR MORE DIFFERENT SEPARATED PLACES SIMULTANEOUSLY!!!

Why does THE BLESSED TRINITY give this gift of BI-LOCATION to some CATHOLICS. I think that one reason is to enable people like Hashi and Gonzales and all of us to believe that indeed THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD, AND GOD CAN BE IN A MULTITUDE, AN INFINITE NUMBER OF PLACES, EVERYWHERE SIMULTANEOUSLY!!!

The last CATHOLIC I know who had this gift of bi-location was PADRE PIO DEL PIETRELCINA. Every day, he would have hundreds, thousands of visitors from all over the world — because on his hands, feet and side, Padre Pio had the wounds of Christ’s crucifixion.

Padre Pio’s masses were very long, 2 HOURS LONG. And when he was saying mass, he was there in front of hundreds of people CONTINEOUSLY THE WHOLE 2 HOURS. Sometimes while he was there at mass for 2 hours in front of all these hundreds of people, OTHER PEOPLE WOULD ALSO SEE AND CONVERSE WITH PADRE PIO AT SOME OTHER LOCATION!!!

How can this be??? How could Padre Pio be SIMULTANEOUSLY IN TWO DIFFERENT PLACES AT THE SAME TIME??? BUT THAT IS THE FACT ! ! ! ! PADRE PIO HAD THE GIFT OF BI-LOCATION AND COULD BE IN TWO DIFFERENT PLACES SIMULTANEOUSLY!!!

Not only that, Padre Pio had visitors who were religious leaders from non-catholic religions, including leaders from non-christian religions. AND AMONG THESE NON-CHRISTIAN RELIGIOUS LEADERS WERE MUSLIM IMAMS.

These things can be checked and researched by you in the internet on line. There are many many articles, books, tapes, movies, videos on Padre Pio, not to mention thousands of people who got cured in body and soul as a result of his intercession. In fact, because he indeed is a man of God, his holiness crosses religious barriers so much so that there is even a book entirely on Padre Pio WRITTEN NOT BY A CATHOLIC BUT BY A LUTHERAN PASTOR.
 
Hashi’s Post#1, Gonzales’ Post#186
ATTENTION: MODERATOR

I posted a respose yesterday, Thanksgiving Day a reply to Hashi’s Post #1 and Gonzales’ Post #186.

In my post, I mentioned Padre Pio’s ability to be physically present in 2 different places simultaneously, at the same time. This is called BI-LOCATION. One Padre Pio present in two different places simultaneously is like ONE GOD PRESENT IN A MULTITUDE OF PLACES SIMULTANEOUSLY.

In my view, that’s a very good explanation to show the omnipresence of God and the reality of the BLESSED TRINITY ONE GOD. (my Post# 196 had at least 18 viewers!!!)

Considering that my response, POST #196 has disappeared and was deleted, one possibility is that the moderator deleted it. Another possibility is that SATAN or his agents removed it.

The fact is that PADRE PIO DEL PIETRELCINA’S BI-LOCATION IS A REALITY. REALITY TAKES PRECEDENCE OVER COMMON SENSE OR LOGIC OR RATIONALITY. In fact, in Quantum Physics, even light conflictingly as both a wave and a particle, REALITY TAKES PRECEDENCE OVER COMMON SENSE, LOGIC, RATIONALITY!!!
 
The Eurasian:
Hashi’s Post#1, Gonzales’ Post#186
ATTENTION: MODERATOR

I posted a respose yesterday, Thanksgiving Day a reply to Hashi’s Post #1 and Gonzales’ Post #186.

In my post, I mentioned Padre Pio’s ability to be physically present in 2 different places simultaneously, at the same time. This is called BI-LOCATION. One Padre Pio present in two different places simultaneously is like ONE GOD PRESENT IN A MULTITUDE OF PLACES SIMULTANEOUSLY.

In my view, that’s a very good explanation to show the omnipresence of God and the reality of the BLESSED TRINITY ONE GOD. (my Post# 196 had at least 18 viewers!!!)

Considering that my response, POST #196 has disappeared and was deleted, one possibility is that the moderator deleted it. Another possibility is that SATAN or his agents removed it.

The fact is that PADRE PIO DEL PIETRELCINA’S BI-LOCATION IS A REALITY. REALITY TAKES PRECEDENCE OVER COMMON SENSE OR LOGIC OR RATIONALITY. In fact, in Quantum Physics, even light conflictingly as both a wave and a particle, REALITY TAKES PRECEDENCE OVER COMMON SENSE, LOGIC, RATIONALITY!!!
Click to expand...
I hope that my assumption of what has happened here is fact and not just supposition. My premise for this post is that a moderator did delete the original as that person felt that this was private revelation.
If this is in fact true I would like to point to this editing as detrimental to the good propagation of Faith. Padre Pio has been declared a saint. The record of his life has been investigated and approved. His God given gift of bi-location is just that, a gift! The posting of this aspect of his life is in my opinion a good meditation starting point for people to use to come to grips with the omnipresence of God. It is not ‘private revelation’.
Should it have been private revelation, where in lies the harm in letting private revelaton that does not deny or oppose the Truth as taught by the Magisterium of the Church, stand or fall on its own merits? Is not our God the omnipotent Supreme Being not fully able to protect and lead His Children to Truth through the Holy Spirit? I know we have a responsibility not to put God to the test but do we not have an equally important responsibility to let His Spirit blow truth freely where it The Trinity might lead? Maybe I am wrong to post this here but I do know that private revelation has been essential in my spiritual development. I also know that there is both a hardship and a responsibility to share all true revelation, private, scriptural and traditional with others. Thanks for listening.
P.s. I do not mean this posting to be a censuring of moderators as it is a hard and thankless task they do at times.
 
Hashi Al-Eritre:
Now i know why they call it ‘a mystery’.

You have emphasized throughout your reply that God is one in essence, and that the holy spirit and jesus exist within the father. What i am struggling to understand is if God is three persons existing in one essense, when Jesus or the holy spirit were on earth, how is it Jesus was existing within the father if jesus was on earth? In other words, how does one claim God is One yet believe there is divine Jesus on earth and a divine father in the heavens and a divine holy spirit somewhere else? Obviously the three persons are not One if they are not together.

You said:

What you said seems to suggest some very inappropriate and irrational ideas about God. When jesus was eating, was the father and the holyspirit eating? when jesus was sleeping, the father and the holyspirit were sleeping? When jesus was being suckled as a baby, the father and the holy spirit were being suckled? was the father and the holyspirit in the womb of mary? When Jesus suffered the pain on the cross and died for 3 days, the father was also suffering pain and was dead for 3 days? God was dead for 3 days?

And there are more that can be asked, after all jesus lived like any other human being in terms of his bodily functions. I however refuse to believe and ascribe God with such things because God is High above such things being ascribed to Him. Also, God looks after the affairs of the heavens and the earth, Jesus wasnt doing that while he was on earth.

What im trying to get at here is that this understanding of 3 persons as one God is very faulty and incomprehensable. You cannot say God is one yet you have 3 separate persons with 3 separate roles, doing separate actions, and are at different places. ANd you also cannot claim they are always together and doing the same thing simultaniously because thats also incomprehensable and irrational.

Moving on to your explanation regarding ‘Person’, you said:

There are two definitions to ‘beget’:
  1. to father
  2. To cause to exist or occur; produce
Now you said in your quote above that the father eternally begets the son… the father is eternally producing and causing Jesus to exist?? Again, an incomprehensable and irrational concept.

Also, if God has always been triun, such a concept of God HAD to have existed from the time of Adam and Eve and propagated by the very first of the Prophets (Abraham, Moses, etc). Believing in the trinity is considered by the church to be so central to faith in God and to achieving salvation, isnt it? How come then, this trinity concept of God never existed in the previous scriptures and messages, until the advent of christianity? Surely God does not preach a concept about himself to a previous people, then a totally different concept later on.

You went on to say:

You lost me here. I dont understand what you are trying to say. The rest of what you said seemed to stem from the above quote so until i understand what you are trying to say above i cannot comment further.

I think though, my previous comments suffice as a reply in questioning the trinity concept. I still dont see the montheism in the trinity, all i see certian principles were made in a (failed) attempt to turn a tritheistic concept into a monotheistic concept. And i say failed because these principles are terribly confusing, irrational, and incomprehensible. Moreover, it is a concept that the natural disposition of a human (in how they preceive God) would have to be completely manipulated and changed to accept.
Click to expand...
You cannot comprehend God and the Trinity using human standards. Human ratioanlization of God is imperfect and limited. God’s nature is incomprehensible to men (and women). God is eternal, without beginning and without end, and without succession. God is omnipresent (from “Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma” by Dr. Ludwig Ott).
 
I suggest reading Thomas Aquinas on the Trinity, persons and relation on the web. 1 God, 3 persons, 2 natures, (human and divine). I like to think of 5 smooth stones that fused into 1 in the slingshot of David.

gocart.orgthesishtml

Mary was a human being who God chose to bear His Son.
He wiped away the stain of original sin from her that she might bear God.

Because he listens to his mom we ask for her intercession before him. Although we deserve a terrible justice from God, his mother can convince him to have mercy. Do you pray to the saints?

She is also the church.
 
😃 The funniest thread…
Supposed I am The God. I can be a comedian, a father, and a mother at the same time. And all is real. Is it too strange for my Might and Power. Remember, I am omnipresent. 😃 If I become a comedian, does God exist? 😛 When I am a comedian, aren’t I still God? 👍
 
Hashi Al-Eritre:
Christianity has always claimed to be monotheistic, but im struggling to understand how the trinity is a monotheistic concept. If the claim is that ‘God is 3 persons in 1’ then from what i see it is actually a tritheistic concept (the belief that there are three equally powerful gods who form a triad).

I would like an explanation from the christian perspective on the trinity and how it is not ‘tritheistic’.
Click to expand...
Well you asked the same question that my 5 year old asked me this week. Although I have a BA in the bible I still stuggled to answer his question. I know what it looks like from the outside and from the inside to those who are reflective. Hard question. I would venture to say I doubt you will find a suitable answer expect to say that its a faith issue with some logic behind it. I would say that the Bible supports this idea of a trinity but you won’t find the term. Good luck finding an explanation that makes complete sense. I’ve been in the Christian Church for 34 years, went to bible college for 5 and I’ve yet to hear a complete answer, although I believe in the Trinity. Sounds a little hypocritcal doesn’t it. It’s a mystery of God that is probably to big for our minds, just my opinion.
 
Hashi Al-Eritre:
Christianity has always claimed to be monotheistic, but im struggling to understand how the trinity is a monotheistic concept. If the claim is that ‘God is 3 persons in 1’ then from what i see it is actually a tritheistic concept (the belief that there are three equally powerful gods who form a triad).
Click to expand...
Peace be with you.

That is not what the doctrine of the trinity says. You need to do some homework my brother, and try to accurately understand the authentic teaching before attempting to criticize it.

Salam
 
Hashi Al-Eritre:
Christianity has always claimed to be monotheistic, but im struggling to understand how the trinity is a monotheistic concept. If the claim is that ‘God is 3 persons in 1’ then from what i see it is actually a tritheistic concept (the belief that there are three equally powerful gods who form a triad).

I would like an explanation from the christian perspective on the trinity and how it is not ‘tritheistic’.
Click to expand...
The Trinity is “tri-personistic,” which is different from “tri-theistic.”

The Trinity is monotheistic, because it teaches one ultimate reality, one God. Tritheism, on the other hand, is the belief in three ultimate realities, three Gods.

The Trinity is monotheistic tri-personism: one ultimate reality, but three Persons.

Islam is monotheistic mono-personism: one ultimate reality, in one Person.

Both are valid ways of describing the ultimately indescribable.
 
Wow…ahimsa is good…hehehe…So Hashi…trinity is tripersonistic… (not 99 personistic…hahaha)…
 
The Trinity—Part One (Dr. Norman Geisler)
ankerberg.com/Articles/theological-dictionary/TD0100W1.htm

The Trinity—Part Two (Dr. Norman Geisler)
ankerberg.com/Articles/theological-dictionary/TD0100W2.htm

The Trinity—Part Three (Dr. Norman Geisler)
ankerberg.com/Articles/theological-dictionary/TD0100W3.htm

The Trinity—Part 4 (Dr. Norman Geisler)
ankerberg.com/Articles/theological-dictionary/TD0100W4.htm

The Trinity—Part 5 (Dr. Norman Geisler)
ankerberg.com/Articles/theological-dictionary/TD0200W1.htm
 
The Divine Trinity is in the Lord, if he considers the trinity in every human being? Every person has a soul, a body and spirit; likewise the Lord, ‘for in the Lord all the fulness of the Godhead dwells bodily,’ as Paul said (Col. 2:9). In Jesus Christ the Soul, Body and Spirit is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Therefore the Trinity in the Lord is Divine, in men it is human.
In this mystical notion that there are three Divine persons and yet one God, and that this God, although one, is nevertheless not one person, everyone can see that reason (understanding) has no part, but has been lulled the understanding to sleep, and still it compels the mouth to speak like a parrot, for a parrot speaks without understanding. And when reason (understanding) is put to sleep what is speech from the mouth but dead speech? When the mouth speaks that which reason turns away from and dissents from, is it not speech foolish?

The reason the Divine Trinity can not be understood is because man fails to understand the Divine Essence of God.

The doctrine of a plurality of gods, both in past ages and at the present day, has sprung solely from a failure to understand the Divine Esse. It has been shown above that the unity of God is inmostly inscribed on the mind of every man, since it lies at the center of all that flows from God into the soul of man; and yet it has not descended therefrom into the human understanding, for the reason that the knowledges by which man must ascend to meet God have been lacking. For everyone must prepare the way for God, that is, must prepare himself for reception; and this is done by means of knowledges. The knowledges that have been lacking, and that enable the understanding to penetrate far enough to see that God is one, and that not more than one Divine Esse is possible, It is said that the man rises; but the meaning is that he is raised up by God. For in acquiring knowledges for himself man exercises his freedom of choice; but as he acquires for himself knowledges from the Word by means of his understanding he prepares the way by which God comes down and raises him up. The knowledges by means of which the human understanding rises, God holding it in His hand and leading it, which means God leads and teaches the person’s understanding, may be like the steps of a ladder seen by Jacob, which was set upon the earth with the top of it reaching to heaven, by which the angels ascended while Jehovah stood above it (Gen.28:12, 13). The ladder represents the understanding of man reaching up to God.

William 🙂
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top