The Trinity refuted by Christ Himself

[gurrato_alaien]

In the ‘Gospel according to Mark’, chapter 12, verses 28-34, we are able to read one of the statements, made by Christ himself, which categorically denies the doctrine of the trinity:

"Then one of the lawyers, who had been listening to these discussions and noted how well he answered, came forward and asked him, ‘Which commandment is the first of all?’

Jesus answered, 'The first is, “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is the only Lord; love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.”

The second is this: “Love your neighbour as yourself.”

usislam.org/christianity/christrefute.htm

Peace.

 

[LilyM]

Gurrato alaien, unfortunately I can’t quote your whole post, it’s too long, but I will say just a few things in response to it.

Isaiah (one of the Jewish prophets of the Old Testament, surely someone you as a faithful Moslem should be paying attention to!) had this to say:

‘For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given … and HIS name [the name of the child or son] shall be called … MIGHTY GOD!’ (Isaiah 9:6).

In another place in Isaiah (isaiah 6:14) this same child (born of the virgin, therefore it is Jesus) is called Immanuel - “God with us” Why? because this child IS God, as well as being something slightly apart and different from God, because of his ‘sonship’. This is true whether he is simply spiritually God’s son or the son of a human being as well. If God can exist simultaneously in two different ‘persons’ or ‘forms’ (father and son) then the Trinity (father son and Holy Spirit) is possible as well.

I have seen another post here on this forum claiming a miraculous fish which ‘proves’ Islam is the correct faith. The Quran also tells of numerous miraculous events occurring in the lives of all the prophets, including Jesus himself. Clearly you yourselves seem to acknowledge that Allah can suspend so-called ‘natural’ laws. Surely this INCLUDES the laws of arithmetic as well as those of science! A God who can raise people from the dead or take them to heaven without them dying at all can have no problems existing in more than one form at the same time. One plus one only equals two for human beings, not for God!

Think of this - water can be simultaneously (at one and the same time) existing as clouds (water in vapour/gas form) hovering over the ocean (water in its liquid form) with icebergs floating in it (which are the same water in solid form).

You also seem to have the bizarre notion that we consider Mary (Miriam) to be God somehow - she most assuredly is not, and no true Christian believes that she is!

 

[MariaG]

You are right there is one God, not three. The trinity does not say there are 3 Gods.

 

[Della]

The Trinity is a complex mystery, but there are many things, even in the natural world, that are complex mysteries, but that doesn’t automatically make them unbelievable or wrong.

God is three Persons in one Godhead. There are many ways that nature itself reflects this truth. For instance, we human beings are more than animals because we not only have brains, but we have minds capable of intelligent thought as well as eternal souls. So, we are a trinity within ourselves. A simple egg has three parts: yoke, white, and shell, and yet it is still one egg. Light is photons, particles and waves but it is still light–and Light is what God is, too, although not merely the light of natural creation. These aren’t proofs of the Trinity but they do show us that there are things in nature itself that are one thing with three parts.

God the Father expresses himself through His Word, and that expression is a Person who shares the Father’s divinity and is equally God. And the Father and the Son share ultimate love and that ultimate love is expressed in the Person of the Holy Spirit, who is fully and equally God and acts in accord with them. That is a complex mystery and a unique relationship, but it is not a contradiction to them being One. Rather, it shows that God expresses himself and gives himself to us in three ways because he is three Persons in One Godhead.

So, you see, Jesus was not denying the Trinity but merely quoting OT definitions that the lawyer understood. Indeed, the passage doesn’t deal with the concept of the Trinity, but rather with another subject all together. We Catholics interpret Holy Scripture literally but not literalistically. We go by what the author intended to tell us not merely how individual words could be interpreted, although secondary interpretations are fine as long as they don’t negate or deny the primary one.

 

[George_Waters]

MariaG:

You are right there is one God, not three. The trinity does not say there are 3 Gods.

I wonder how many times we will have to declare there is only one God before Muslims will give us the benefit of the doubt?

How often have we been implored to accept Islam is a religion of peace regardless of the actions of Muslims who claim the Quran dictates their violence? How often have we given you the benefit of the doubt?

If Muslims wish to believe we are tritheist, regardless of how many times we adamantly declare there is only one God, so be it, but I would caution them that we will not believe Islam is a religion of peace regardless of how often it is stated until the actions of Muslims demonstrate Islam is peaceful.

 

[carol_marie]

George Waters:

I wonder how many times we will have to declare there is only one God before Muslims will give us the benefit of the doubt?

How often have we been implored to accept Islam is a religion of peace regardless of the actions of Muslims who claim the Quran dictates their violence? How often have we given you the benefit of the doubt?

If Muslims wish to believe we are tritheist, regardless of how many times we adamantly declare there is only one God, so be it, but I would caution them that we will not believe Islam is a religion of peace regardless of how often it is stated until the actions of Muslims demonstrate Islam is peaceful.

Well said.

 

[JimG]

Oh no, not another Trinity thread.

Of course, both Jews and Christians have always been monotheists. We accept the Jewish declaration of “Sh’ma” as fervently as any Israelite of Jesus time.

Even a philosophical meditation on the nature of God can only lead to the conclusion that God is One. There can only exist one eternal essence, one eternal and omnipotent being.

The ancient Catholic Creed begins with: “Credo in Unam Deum.” “We believe in one God.”

The problem only arises because Muslims refuse to make a distinction between person and nature. Or even to think in philosophical terms about God.

I’m still wondering whether the God of Islam is eternal spirit.
I don’t think Muslims know, because they’ve never thought about it.

 

[KBarn]

The orthodox standard taught by the Church eventually triumphed over Arianism and proclaimed the truth of the Holy Trinity. It wasn’t until Arianism resurfaced in the 6th century under the heresiarch Mohammed that the Trinity faced such an obstinate denial. How else are we to reconcile the Sh’ma with the fact that the New Testament (which you quote) ascribes divinity to Jesus, to the Father, and the Holy Ghost while at the same time Jesus himself commands that we baptize in the name (notice the singular version of the noun) of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. The Lord our God is one. But His mystery is so inscrutible that He is also three persons. The only way to square what Sacred Scripture says is by asserting the Trinity.

 

[LilyM]

Thanks guys - I am not a super-educated apologist by any means but I got so angry with this one that I had to respond - you have said it all much better than I could myself.

 

[exoflare]

I’m kind of surprised guarato alaien is still attempting all these shot-in-the-dark posts attempting to discredit Christianity above all else. Maybe he really thinks he is convincing some people, but that’s kind of hard to imagine.

 

[gurrato_alaien]

When GOD was in the garden of Gethsemane he fell on his face and Prayed to another GOD asking the other GOD :

Mt 26:39 O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

This GOD did not function according to his will but to that of the Other GOd. His life was in the hands of the other GOD. This GOD sweated Blood and sweat(like a human) while Praying to that GOD.

In the end that GOD did not listen to the Prayers of this GOD and this GOD was killed by the Creation that the other GOD created. And this GOD even called the other GOD

Mt 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

But the other GOD ignored him and he said it is finished and died

Please wake up brothers.

Peace.

 

[George_Waters]

gurrato alaien:

When GOD was in the garden of Gethsemane he fell on his face and Prayed to another GOD asking the other GOD :

Mt 26:39 O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

This GOD did not function according to his will but to that of the Other GOd. His life was in the hands of the other GOD. This GOD sweated Blood and sweat(like a human) while Praying to that GOD.

In the end that GOD did not listen to the Prayers of this GOD and this GOD was killed by the Creation that the other GOD created. And this GOD even called the other GOD

Mt 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

But the other GOD ignored him and he said it is finished and died

Please wake up brothers.

Peace.

This does nothing but demonstrate your lack of understanding of the concept of the Trinity. As you continue to address this topic in numerous threads it must be concluded that you are not interested in understanding our faith but are simply interested in attacking it.

 

[Neithan]

gurrato alaien:

…]

Please wake up brothers.

Peace.

You raise a good point here, gurrato. I understand and commend you for trying to make sense of a faith which is different, but so closely related to your own.
The problem is that we cannot take individual verses in Holy Scripture out of context and use them to prove doctrines. Certainly, if these types of verses, where Jesus is praying to the Father, were the only verses describing their relationship, then no Christian would beleive that Jesus is God; however, there are other verses that complicate the matter, particularly in the Gospel of John.

The fourth Gospel opens with an explicit description of Jesus’ divinity:
John 1:

1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2
He was in the beginning with God.
3
All things came to be through him, and without him nothing came to be. What came to be
4
through him was life, and this life was the light of the human race;
5
the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
…]
14
And the Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us, and we saw his glory, the glory as of the Father’s only Son, full of grace and truth.

The Word of God a.k.a. the Son are referring to Jesus Christ. This presents him clearly as a Divine Person. But how do we reconcile this with the philosophical impossibility of more than One God? Further reading…

John:

• John 10:30 I and [my] Father are one.
• John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
• John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM.

So we clearly have a dilemma. Christ and God the Father are one, and yet they are two Persons who communicate to one another. How do we reconcile this, considering all Scripture is equally weighted inerrant Truth? The answer was that our One God has more than One Person in Himself. Simple. So then, how do we get the doctrine of Three Persons? Contrary to what Muhammad and many Muslims thought/think Christians beleive: Mary is not a Divine Person, she is solely human. The Third Person is the mysterious Holy Spirit, of whom Christ Himself told us:
John 16:

12
"I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear it now.
13
But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to all truth. He will not speak on his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will declare to you the things that are coming.
14
He will glorify me, because he will take from what is mine and declare it to you.
15
Everything that the Father has is mine; for this reason I told you that he will take from what is mine and declare it to you.

Christ here introduces us to a Third Person, who possesses all that is His, and also all that is the Father’s… so naturally we must conclude that our one God has Three Persons: the Father, the Son, and this “Spirit of Truth.” Back to Matthew now, we find some clarification at the end:
Matthew 28:

16
The eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had ordered them.
17
When they saw him, they worshiped, but they doubted.
18
Then Jesus approached and said to them, “All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
19
Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit,
20
teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.”

Here Christ explicitly admonishes His disciples to baptise, not only in the name of the Father–but the Son and the Holy Spirit. Does this mean there are three Gods? Impossible, as Christ has already explained to them that He, the Father, and the Spirit are One. So, we must conclude that our One God is Three, one Name with three parts, one Nature with Three Persons. This is a great mystery revealed.

We must take Scripture in its entirety, and when that is done, we can only accept the Oneness of God, and yet the Trinity of His Personality. The Son prayed to His Father in Gethsemane, one Divine Will to another, yet they share One Divine Nature.
This is a poor analogy, but it would be something like one human being having three wholly autonomous and individual personalities. This never actually occurs, although we have simulations of it in psychological phenomena; but with God it is real and true.
We have One God, and He is Three Persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit!

Glory to the holy and undivided Trinity, now and forever! :bowdown:

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

gurrato alaien:

When GOD was in the garden of Gethsemane he fell on his face and Prayed to another GOD asking the other GOD :

Mt 26:39 O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

This GOD did not function according to his will but to that of the Other GOd. His life was in the hands of the other GOD. This GOD sweated Blood and sweat(like a human) while Praying to that GOD.

In the end that GOD did not listen to the Prayers of this GOD and this GOD was killed by the Creation that the other GOD created. And this GOD even called the other GOD

Mt 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

But the other GOD ignored him and he said it is finished and died

Please wake up brothers.

Peace.

You don’t wish to have a theological discussion or debate, you wish to force your views on others. So what’s the point of discussing our view with you? We’re already infidels and your religion commands you to not take a Christian or a Jew as a friend because they’re “friends of themselves”. We believe there are 3 persons and one God. We don’t believe there are three separate gods, we believe there is one being of the Godhead because the Godhead is eternal. We recognize the Father was in Heaven when Jesus was on this Earth. We recognize that the spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son. I have already showed you verses proving Jesus’ divinity within the New Testament, so you can stop taking all of these cheapshots and twisting our Scriptures out of context.

I’m posting this link just because I’ve been over this a few times already with the OP in other threads it’s getting tiring… so if anyone actually believes these claims read this: scripturecatholic.com/jesus_christ_divinity.html

One more thing it’s nice that you plagiarize your OP from here… usislam.org/christianity/christrefute.htm

 

[inJESUS]

I wonder why is it that muslims do not understand when we say we have one God? do they think we are fooling ourselves or something? why is it that we understand it and muslims dont? is it the Holy Spirit? but i dont blame them ! mohammad himself did not understand it and indoctrinated them with the false teaching of 3 gods and Mary as God without even mentioning the Holy Spirit as God coz he obviously did not know what mainstream christians believe in, only what he heard of the nazaritic heretic teachings …a “prophet” who got wrong info from allah is neither a true prophet nor his revelation is from God…it is absolutly astonishing that allah/mohammad got it all wrong about Christians.

the question is, before trying to refute the irrefutable, why dont muslims tackle the thread talking about OBVIOUS PLAGIARISM from apocryphal bibles and Jewish/Christian folklores and talmudic teachings? If such an obvious truth is not seen, how do you expect them to ponder upon the truth of God?

yet another question that no muslim so far answered : since when does God give women as priviledges to a prophet? i have a different name for such a “deity” but dont wanna be suspended…If God grants these materialistic, lustful wishes, WHAT ON EARTH CAN SATAN GIVE MORE?

 

[inJESUS]

I’m posting this link just because I’ve been over this a few times already with the OP in other threads it’s getting tiring… so if anyone actually believes these claims read this: scripturecatholic.com/jesus_christ_divinity.html

great link for those who “want” to understand.

One more thing it’s nice that you plagiarize your OP from here… usislam.org/christianity/christrefute.htm

i think we are familiar now with the sites that muslims use which happen to be all refuted badly…what is OP?

 

[Rachel_Malloy]

OP= Opening Post(er)

I have edited the OP to reference said article and have adjusted the thread to conform to Forum Rules on posting articles from other sources.

Those who wish to discuss the article, feel free to continue…

Rachel

 

[VociMike]

gurrato alaien:

In the ‘Gospel according to Mark’, chapter 12, verses 28-34, we are able to read one of the statements, made by Christ himself, which categorically denies the doctrine of the trinity

Do you consider the Gospel of Mark the inerrant word of God? If not, why in the world would you use it to support your position?

 

[Ignatius]

gurrato alaien:

In the ‘Gospel according to Mark’, chapter 12, verses 28-34, we are able to read one of the statements, made by Christ himself, which categorically denies the doctrine of the trinity:

Jesus answered, 'The first is, “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is the only Lord; love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.”

I dont see how the fact that there is one God counters the Triune nature of God. Please clarify.

 

[estesbob]

gurrato alaien:

In the ‘Gospel according to Mark’, chapter 12, verses 28-34, we are able to read one of the statements, made by Christ himself, which categorically denies the doctrine of the trinity:

"Then one of the lawyers, who had been listening to these discussions and noted how well he answered, came forward and asked him, ‘Which commandment is the first of all?’

Jesus answered, 'The first is, “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is the only Lord; love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.”

The second is this: “Love your neighbour as yourself.”

usislam.org/christianity/christrefute.htm

Peace.

How does any of this Contradict the Trinity? I suspect that you have bough tinto the false notion that the Father , Son and Holy Spirit are three different entities. Thet are not

Since the father, Son and the Holy Spirt were present at both the Baptism of Jesus and the Transfiguration the doctrine of the Trinity is firmly grounded in Scripture.