The Trinity refuted by Christ Himself

[inJESUS]

Justice, what i meant is this dear :

the royal we does not exist in the Hewbrew Language…so when God says : we, it is not the royal we ( which is a human invention)…so why did God refer to himself as “we” or “us”?

 

[Justice2006]

inJESUS:

the royal we does not exist in the Hewbrew Language…so when God says : we, it is not the royal we ( which is a human invention)…so why did God refer to himself as “we” or “us”?

Mr. inJesus,

This objection is like splitting hairs since you have no knowledge of Hebrew or Arabic.

God Almighty when revealed His message, He revealed it in the same language which people speak/understand. Are you saying that God should have used some Alien language to convey His Message?

As to We, Us etc…, there are TWO types of plurals in Eastern semitic langauges such as Arabic and Hebrew.

-Plural of Numbers
-Plural of respect/dignity

For a person who knows Hebrew, your objection is meaningless.

Arabic “We” does not indicate plural of numbers; rather it displays the highest position in the language.

English, Persian, Hebrew, Arabic and many languages provide for the usage of “We” for the royal figure.

It is helpful to note the same dignity is given to the person being spoken to in English. We say to someone, “You ARE my friend.” Yet the person is only one person standing there. Why did we say “ARE” instead of “IS”? The noun “you” is singular and should therefore be associated with a singular verb for the state of being, yet we say, “are.” The same is true for the speaker when referring to himself or herself. We say, “I am” and this is also in the royal plural, instead of saying, “I is.” This example is just to give you an idea. But if you learn Hewbrew or Arabic, you will never ask this foolish question.

There are many Christian Arabs whose native/mother tongue is Arabic. They don’t raise this issue because they knew, it is a non-issue.

Mr. inJesus, as usual you are raising an objection which has no base at all.

 

[inJESUS]

Mr. inJesus,

This objection is like splitting hairs since you have no knowledge of Hebrew or Arabic.

i know arabic…Hebrew no but i read about it so please do not assume things before asking me…do you know both?

God Almighty when revealed His message, He revealed it in the same language which people speak/understand. Are you saying that God should have used some Alien language to convey His Message?

what made you think i believe this?

As to We, Us etc…, there are TWO types of plurals in Eastern semitic langauges such as Arabic and Hebrew.

give me proof please.

-Plural of Numbers
-Plural of respect/dignity

plural of numbers yes…plural of dignity is a human invention. In Hebrew, there is no royal we.

For a person who knows Hebrew, your objection is meaningless.

maybe i am mistaken and you can give me a hebrew link that says WE= royal we? thx.

Arabic “We” does not indicate plural of numbers; rather it displays the highest position in the language.

since when? we in arabic = nahnu = plural.

English, Persian, Hebrew, Arabic and many languages provide for the usage of “We” for the royal figure.

proof.

There are many Christian Arabs whose native/mother tongue is Arabic. They don’t raise this issue because they knew, it is a non-issue.

my native is arabic…what about you?

 

[inJESUS]

i can give you this reference for now:

E. What scholars say about “Plural of Majesty”:

“Every one who is acquainted with the rudiments of the Hebrew and Chaldee languages, must know that God, in the holy Writings, very often spoke of Himself in the plural. The passages are numerous, in which, instead of a grammatical agreement between the subject and predicate, we meet with a construction, which some modern grammarians, who possess more of the so-called philosophical than of the real knowledge of the Oriental languages, call a pluralis excellentiae. This helps them out of every apparent difficulty. Such a pluralis excellentiae was, however, a thing unknown to Moses and the prophets. Pharaoh, Nebuchadnezzar, David, and all the other kings, throughout TeNaKh (the Law, the Prophets, and the Hagiographa) speak in the singular, and not as modern kings in the plural. They do not say we, but I, command; as in Gen. xli. 41; Dan. iii. 29; Ezra i. 2, etc.” (Rabbi Tzvi Nassi, Oxford University professor, The Great Mystery, 1970, p6, )
“This first person plural can hardly be a mere editorial or royal plural that refers to the speaker alone, for no such usage is demonstrable anywhere else in biblical Hebrew. Therefore, we must face the question of who are included in this “us” and “our.” It could hardly include the angels in consultation with God, for nowhere is it ever stated that man was created in the image of angels, only of God. Verse 27 then affirms: “and God [Elohim] created man in His own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female He created them” (NASB). God–the same God who spoke of Himself in the plural–now states that He created man in His image. In other words, the plural equals the singular. This can only be understood in terms of the Trinitarian nature of God. The one true God subsists in three Persons, Persons who are able to confer with one another and carry their plans into action together–without ceasing to be one God.” (Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties, Gleason Archer, p.359, commenting on whether Gen 1:26 is a “plural of majesty”)
“The best answer that they [Old Hebrew lexicographers and grammarians] could give was that the plural form used for the name (or title) of God was the ‘pluralis majestatis,’ that is the plural of majesty…to say nothing of the fact that it is not at all certain that the ‘pluralis majestatis’ is ever found in the Old Testament, there is an explanation much nearer at hand and much simpler, and that is, that a plural name was used for the one God, in spite of the intense monotheism of the Jews, because there is a plurality of person in the one Godhead.” (The God of the Bible, R. A.Torrey, 1923, p 64)
“Another very popular view in modem times is that God uses the plural, just as kings do, as a mark of dignity (the so-called “plural of majesty”), but it is only late in Jewish history that such a form of speech occurs, and then it is used by Persian and Greek rulers (Esdr. iv. 18; 1 Mace. x. 19). Nor can the plural be regarded as merely indicating the way in which God summons Himself to energy, for the use of the language is against this (Gen. ii. 18; Is. xxxiii. 10).” (Trinity, A Catholic Dictionary, William E. Addis & Thomas Arnold, 1960, p 822-830)

 

[inJESUS]

and this:

“The plural “We” was regarded by the fathers and earlier theologians almost unanimously as indicative of the Trinity” (Keil & Delitzsch, Genesis 1:26, Vol. 1, Page 38) Note: after observing that that the unanimous view of the apostolic Fathers was that “we” referred to the three persons of the trinity, he then rejects this and adopts the plural of majesty view. This is most unfortunate. If only he had known plural of majesty did not exist historically among the Jews until after the Old Testament was written in about 200 AD.)
180 AD Irenaeus "It was not angels, therefore, who made us, nor who formed us, neither had angels power to make an image of God, nor any one else, except the Word of the Lord, nor any Power remotely distant from the Father of all things. For God did not stand in need of these [beings], in order to the accomplishing of what He had Himself determined with Himself beforehand should be done, as if He did not possess His own hands. For with Him were always present the Word and Wisdom, the Son and the Spirit, by whom and in whom, freely and spontaneously, He made all things, to whom also He speaks, saying, “Let Us make man after Our image and likeness; " [Gen. 1:26]” (Against Heresies 4:20:1).

 

[Justice2006]

inJESUS:

i know arabic…Hebrew no but i read about it so please do not assume things before asking me…do you know both?​

plural of numbers yes…plural of dignity is a human invention. In Hebrew, there is no royal we.​

maybe i am mistaken and you can give me a hebrew link that says WE= royal we? thx.

Mr. inJesus,

In the Old Testament, in Hebrew, the Jews refer to God as “Elohiym” {el-o-heem}. “Elohiym” is the plural form of “'elowahh” {el-o’-ah}, which means “god.” We will notice that the Jews also do not pray to a “Trinity,” even though their book refers to God in the plural form. This is the way the Semitic languages of Arabic and Hebrew work.

In the Eerdmans Bible Dictionary we read the following explanation of the word “Elohiym”:

**“As a name or designation of the God of Israel, the term is understood as a plural of majesty or an intensive plural, indicating the fullness of the supreme (or only) God … the canonical intent is clearly monotheistic, even where the accompanying verbs or adjectives are grammatically plural ** (e.g. Gen. 20:13, Exod. 22:9 [Mt 8] )”
Eerdmans Bible Dictionary, edited by Allen C. Myers, William B. Eerdmans Publishers, p. 331

[Courtesy:acsu.buffalo.edu]

.

 

[inJESUS]

Justice2006:

inJESUS:

Mr. inJesus,

In the Old Testament, in Hebrew, the Jews refer to God as “Elohiym” {el-o-heem}. “Elohiym” is the plural form of “'elowahh” {el-o’-ah}, which means “god.” We will notice that the Jews also do not pray to a “Trinity,” even though their book refers to God in the plural form. This is the way the Semitic languages of Arabic and Hebrew work.

In the Eerdmans Bible Dictionary

we read the following explanation of the word “Elohiym”:

"As a name or designation of the God of Israel, the term is understood as a plural of majesty or an intensive plural, indicating the fullness of the supreme (or only) God … the canonical intent is clearly monotheistic, even where the accompanying verbs or adjectives are grammatically plural (e.g. Gen. 20:13, Exod. 22:9 [Mt 8] )"

Eerdmans Bible Dictionary, edited by Allen C. Myers, William B. Eerdmans Publishers, p. 331

[Courtesy:acsu.buffalo.edu]
yes, i know that Elohim is in plural.But if the plural of majesty were a regular Hebrew idiom, why is the singular “me” in the same line?

 

[inJESUS]

Even so, the Ezra passage does not necessarily contain a singular royal subject linked to a plural verb-form. If the plural of majesty were a regular Hebrew idiom, why is the singular “me” in the same line?

Rabbinical commentators and linguists recognize that the Hebrew language provides no real basis for such an explanation.15 Ibn Ezra quotes the Gaon,…who suggests that the plural of Genesis 1:26 is the plural of majesty. He refuted that view in favor of God having consulted the angels.16 However, we have already mentioned the difficulties of using angels to solve the mystery.

These are written by jews who know Hebrew:

jewsforjesus.org/publications/issues/10_8/trinity

 

[inJESUS]

Plural nouns and pronouns with singular verbs:

The easiest way to dismiss the argument that the plural pronouns applied to God can be explained as “Plural of Majesty” is to observe that the Hebrew has many examples of plural pronouns also being applied to single human individuals.
Plural of Majesty fails because we find plural references to both God and individual men.
If the Holy Spirit intended to use these plural references of God as “singular of intensity”, then why does He intensify both creator and creation alike?
Obviously the, “Plural of Majesty” does not explain these plural references.
text
Plural noun
Singular verbs

Gen 1:1
Elohim (God)
created

Genesis 46:7
Sons, grandsons, daughters, granddaughters, descendants
brought

Judges 12:7
cities
Buried

Nehemiah 3:8
goldsmiths
Repaired

bible.ca/trinity/trinity-oneness-unity-plural-of-majesty-pluralis-majestaticus-royal-we.htm

 

[Justice2006]

inJESUS:

Justice2006:

yes, i know that Elohim is in plural.But if the plural of majesty were a regular Hebrew idiom, why is the singular “me” in the same line?

Mr. inJesus,

An expert in classical Hebrew can explain to you better. I am amazed that you know Arabic yet did not comprehend this issue.

You are actually a victim of your Church’s so-called “explanations” to justify a pre-conceived idea/dogma of Trinity.

You should study any issue objectively. If I follow your current path/way of arguing and accept what those 7th Day Adventists say about Papacy, then guess what may happen? I will end-up believing Papacy an anti-Christ and Rome a whore/harlot. And of course all this is NONSENSE. Neither Papacy is anti-Christ nor Rome is a harlot nor God of Hebrew Old Testament was/is a triune God. God was/is/will be always ONE and ONLY if you investigate the issue with honesty and without preconceived ideas.

 

[inJESUS]

Mr. inJesus,

An expert in classical Hebrew can explain to you better. I am amazed that you know Arabic yet did not comprehend this issue.

You are actually a victim of your Church’s so-called “explanations” to justify a pre-conceived idea/dogma of Trinity

.

You should study any issue objectively. If I follow your current path/way of arguing and accept what those 7th Day Adventists say about Papacy, then guess what may happen? I will end-up believing Papacy an anti-Christ and Rome a whore/harlot. And of course all this is NONSENSE. Neither Papacy is anti-Christ nor Rome is a harlot nor God of Hebrew Old Testament was/is a triune God. bro this is irrelevant…these are not my views but those of scholars and jews as well…the site i gave you explains all kinda explanations given by jews that jews themselves did not accept.

God was/is/will be always ONE and ONLY if you investigate the issue with honesty and without preconceived ideas.

i dont have to investigate bro, of course God is one. Do you know about the NATURE of this oness thou? did the quran treat the nature of God?

 

[inJESUS]

here are 2 good links on the subject: ( the 2nd one deals with muslim/Christian perspective)
answering-islam.org/God/echad.html
debate.org.uk/topics/trtracts/t06.htm

 

[Justice2006]

inJESUS:

Do you know about the NATURE of this oness thou? did the quran treat the nature of God?

Mr. inJesus,
The topic of this thread is “The Trinity refuted by Christ Himself”

So, first let me state what your NT says:

In John 20:17 we read:

“Jesus saith unto her, …I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your.”

Not only is God Jesus’ father, but He is also his GOD. Think about this carefully. Also notice how Jesus is equating between himself and mankind in these matters and not between himself and God. He is making it as clear as he possibly can that he is one of US and not a god. Why did he not just say “I ascend unto my Father, and your Father .” … and stop !?

Why did Jesus feel it necessary to add the words “…and to my God, and your God.” What additional information was he trying to convey to us with these extra words? Think about it carefully.

Now as to the Nature of God acording to the Koran, only this Surah Ikhlaas (#112) is sufficient:

"Say: He is Allah [The God] the One (and only). Allah, the eternally Besought of all ! He neither begets nor was he begotten. And there is none comparable unto Him."

---

" Laisa ka-mithlihi shai’"
…there is nothing whatever like unto Him]
Surah AshShura 42:11

 

[inJESUS]

bro, you should first ask the question: why didnt Jesus say i go to our father and our God instead of saying : my father, your father, my God, your God? i think Jesus is making some kind of differentiation between what God is to us and to him.

As for Jesus saying : my God, it is because Jesus is a human being, born under the law, as the prophecy says.

regarding the quranic verse, i know it…i thought there is something more specific…since allah did NOT explain to you about his nature, God did. So you cannot refute our claim when you yourself dont know God’s nature.

 

[inJESUS]

ironically, the sentence you quoted is from a passage about Jesus’ resurrection:

Jesus said to her, “Stop holding on to me, 10 for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am going to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”
18
Mary of Magdala went and announced to the disciples, “I have seen the Lord,” and what he told her.

Do you believe all this passage is truthful or just the sentence you quoted?

 

[Justice2006]

inJESUS:

bro, you should first ask the question: why didnt Jesus say i go to our father and our God instead of saying : my father, your father, my God, your God?

The reason Jesus said "I go to my and your Father, because his and our Father (metaphorically) is the SAME and ONE God, who is “Greater than Jesus” while Jesus “can do nothing of his own” because Jesus is a prophet only “a man approved of God, with signs and miracles, which God did through him” because Jesus was not God because “there is only one who is Good, the God” and Jesus in his own words, did not come to abolish or destroy the Law (The Torah) and Torah clearly says “God is ONE” and “God is not a man” and He is invisible.

inJESUS:

i think Jesus is making some kind of differentiation between what God is to us and to him.

You can think many things but all will never make any sense until you really THINK OBJECTIVELY by keeping aside your and your Church’s deceptive preconceived ideas/views/dogmas.

inJESUS:

As for Jesus saying : my God, it is because Jesus is a human being, born under the law, as the prophecy says.

Well, Jesus was only human and was not God. And “God is not a man”. He is Eternal.
Since your Bible has interpolations, you are confused with interpolated texts which made you to destroy the whole essence andvery mission of Prophets of God. You are lost in the contradictions, inconsistencies and improbabilities of Biblical texts and in your Church’s baseless dogmas.

Think objectively, look carefully, judge sincerely and with honesty then you will see the light.

 

[Justice2006]

inJESUS:

regarding the quranic verse, i know it…i thought there is something more specific…

Mr. inJesus,

I thought you are intelligent enough to understand simple and basic fact of God being ONE. I showed you what Surah Ikhlaas (#112) of the Koran clearly states. There are other verses too in the Koran. Here are some examples:

**"Allah! There is no God but Him, the Alive, the Eternal. Neither slumber nor sleep overtakes Him. Unto Him belongs whatsoever is in the heavens and whatsoever is in the earth. Who is he that intercedes with Him save by His leave?

He knows that which is in front of them and that which is behind them, while they encompass nothing of His knowledge except what He will.
His throne extends over the heavens and the earth, and He is never weary of preserving them. He is the Sublime, the Tremendous." **

The Noble Qur’an, Al-Bakarah(2):255

**“Your God is One God; there is no God save Him, the Compassionate, the Merciful.” **

The Noble Qur’an, Al-Bakarah (2):163.

**“Allah! There is no God save Him, the Alive, the Eternal. He has revealed unto you (Muhammad) the Scripture with truth, confirming that which was (revealed) before it, even as He revealed the Torah and the Gospel. Aforetime, for a guidance to mankind; and has revealed the Criterion (one of the names of the Qur’an). Verily! those who disbelieve the revelations of Allah, theirs will be a heavy doom. Allah is Mighty, Able to Requite (the wrong). Verily! nothing in the earth or in the heavens is hidden from Allah. He it is who fashions you in the wombs as pleases Him. There is no God save Him, the Almighty, the Wise…” **

The Noble Qur’an, A’al-Umran(3):2-6

**"Allah (Himself) is witness that there is no God save Him. And the angels and the men of learning (too are witness). Maintaining His creation in justice, there is no God save Him, the Almighty, the Wise. Verily! religion with Allah (is) ‘Al-Islam’ (the surrender).

Those who (formerly) received the Scripture differed only after knowledge came unto them, through transgression among themselves. Whoso disbelieves the revelations of Allah (will find that) Verily! Allah is swift at reckoning. And if they argue with you, (O Muhammad), say: I have surrendered my purpose to Allah and (so have) those who follow me. And say unto those who have received the Scripture and those who read not: Have you (too) surrendered? If they surrender, then truly they are rightly guided, and if they turn away, then it is your duty only to convey the message (unto them). And Allah is Seer of (His) bondmen." **

The Noble Qur’an, A’al-Umran(3):18-20.

.

 

[inJESUS]

The reason Jesus said "I go to my and your Father, because his and our Father (metaphorically) is the SAME and ONE God,

if it is so Jesus wouldnt have given such a sentence

is “Greater than Jesus”

coz God the Father did not become flesh like God the Son who did.

while Jesus “can do nothing of his own” because Jesus is a prophet only "a man approved of God, with signs and miracles, which God did

through him" whose interpretation is this?

because Jesus was not God because “there is only one who is Good, the God”

this is why Jesus said : i am the GOOD shepheard?

and Jesus in his own words, did not come to abolish or destroy the Law (The Torah) and Torah clearly says “God is ONE”

and we say this too

and “God is not a man” and He is invisible.

who said God is a man? we say God The Son took a human body in addition to his divine nature and yes God the Father is invisible…Jesus is the earthly image of what cannot be seen by humans.

You can think many things but all will never make any sense until you really THINK OBJECTIVELY by keeping aside your and your Church’s deceptive preconceived ideas/views/dogmas.

cool down

Well, Jesus in only human and was not God. And “God is not a man”. He is Eternal.

Jesus was both…i explained “God is not a man” part…and yes God the Father the Son the Holy Spirit is eternal

Since your Bible has interpolations, you are confused with interpolated texts which made you to destroy the whole essence andvery mission of Prophets of God. You are lost in the contradictions, inconsistencies and improbabilities of Biblical texts and in your Church’s baseless dogmas

calm down again If you refuse anything Christian, why are you on a Christian forum? to convert us? thats impossible coz those who know Jesus and the Biblical God would never believe in allah or mohammad labeled as false prophet and anti-Christ…sorry bro…if you are here to convert, you better go …but if you want to learn, then try to.
You are the one would should forget the very first anti-Christ’s verse that Allah does not have a Son ( meant sexually in quran) coz we obviously do not believe this mistake and try to understand what God says about his nature since allah failed to do it.

Think objectively, look carefully, judge sincerely and with honesty then you will see the light

The light is our Lord and Saviour , our beloved Lord Jesus .

 

[inJESUS]

the verses you gave do not talk about the nature of God. Sorry bro but you don’t know God’s nature.

 

[MariaG]

Hi Joseph and Justice,

Respectfully, you are quoting Scripture that you feel proves that the Trinity is false.

But please, understand, we Christians believe that the New Testament, all of it, is the inspired word of God. Elsewhere in Scripture, Jesus Himself calls Himself, “I AM” as was quoted previously. So clearly in one area, Jesus is declaring Himself to be God, yet how can God then pray to Himself?

This is what the Trinity attempts to explain, that which is truly hard to comprehend fully, Who God is.

All scripture is in harmony with each other. It cannot contradict itself. If it seems to contradict, the lack is in the person reading and not in God’s inspired word. From a Christian perspective, either Jesus is God, the second person of the Trinity, or He was a false prophet. Either I believe Christ when He says He is God, or I believe He is a false prophet. Neither of those conclusions puts one on the road to Islam.

God Bless,
Maria