The Trinity refuted by Christ Himself

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Justice2006

While we disagree about the reliability of the bible, I can agree that we do not possess the original manuscripts of the writings which comprise it. Not only that, I would also say that while the original authors were inspired, translators are not. So the Bible I hold in my hands today is not a volume which as a separate individual entity, is an inspired work.

Before I catch flak from other Christians about that statement, note that I do not say that the Bible is not inspired. It is. But the translations that we have into various languages are simply translations of inspired writings handed down to us. Languages are different. Languages change, and translations must change with the language, to ensure that the meaning conveyed does not change.

That doesn’t bother me, for several reasons. First, I have much more confidence than you in the reliability of good bible translations, and confidence in the great care with which these writings have been treasured and handed down to us.

Second, as a Catholic, I don’t place my Faith in a book, but in a Person. Worship of a book would amount to bibliolatry. Because I am confident that God fully revealed Himself in the Person of the Messiah Jesus, I am also confident that he took care to ensure that his message was handed down through the ages, through his living Church; (and that the Church in turn took great care in preserving the scriptures.)

Finally, no book interprets itself. Not the bible. Not the Quran. It is humans who must read and comprehend it. No book can teach. No book can grab your arm and say, “wait, that is not what I meant,” or “here is how this was meant to be interpreted at the time it was written.” Rather, it is the custodian of the book, the one who produced it, copied it, studied it, and handed it down, who must handle that function.
 
Why should I expect any better from someone who follows a pedophilic, war mongering, hate filled, lying, sexist false prophet? Your statement is anti-Christian, anti-Catholic. By making a statement like this you are carrying on Mohammed’s tradition of telling half truths and lies.
 
Sorry for the delay in replying. I was not able to post for a couple of days. But here is my reply to your post regarding the subordination of the Son to the father:

Semper Fi said:
“I and the Father are one.” “Before Abraham was, I AM.” “Ye have heard it said… but I say unto you.” “I take away your sins” “I will judge you”. Thomas says to Jesus, “My Lord and my God” what’s Jesus’ reply? “Blessed are they who have seen and believed, even more blessed are they who have believed but not seen.” In Rev. Jesus calls Himself the “Alpha and Omega”, or the “First and the Last”. Pretty clear here, isn’t it?

“The Father is greater than I” (John 14:28). “I ascend to my Father and your Father, my God and your God” (John 20:17). “Firstborn of every creature” (Colossians 1:15). “The beginning of the creations of God” (Revelaton 3:14). Also, the Son prays to the Father, the Father does not pray to the Son. The Son worships the Father, the Father does not worship the Son. The Son is “sent” by the Farther the Father is not “sent” by the Son. The Son “keeps the commandment” of the Father, the Father does not keep the commandant of the Son (John 10:18). The Son can do nothing by Himself, but as taught by the Father, not the other way (John 8:28).—And lots more passages that would come to mind if I sat down and thought about it.

Also, there is little reason to doubt that earliest Christians believed in the subordination of the Son to the Father.

amgid
 
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JimG:
What is amazing here is that you quote the Athanasian Creed, and then go on to state that it says there are three Gods, when the creed you just quoted clearly states that there are not three Gods but One! Your interpretation of the creed is exactly opposite of what it states!
I really don’t think you understand what I am talking about, and I somehow doubt that you will.

amgid
 
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Neithan:
So you don’t beleive that God is a unitary Person because the Church of Latter Day Saints says so?
I believe as I do because the Bible says so, and because modern LDS scripture affirms that it is so.

amgid
 
Interesting discussion between inJESUS, StMarkEofE, Justice2006, Marilena, and others on Genesis 1:26 “And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: . . .” I thought you might like to know what the Mormon take on that is. As you may know, LDS possess additional volumes of scripture besides the Bible, one of which is known as the Book of Moses. The Book of Moses is a more complete version of the first few chapters of Genesis, and you can read the complete text of it here. That book renders the above passage of scripture as follows: “And I, God, said unto mine Only Begotten, which was with me from the beginning: Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and it was so.” (Moses 2:26.) Therefore the “us” and “our” does indeed refer to the members of the Godhead; but that does not mean that it supports the traditional doctrine of the Trinity. Our understanding of the Trinity is different from the traditional one.

amgid
 
Jesus’ blessings to all,
Thank you Joseph for putting the verses from both translations. Both these verses are correct because in the Greek Bible, one of them is written by the author as a sidenote ,explanation, elaboration, you name it. So whether all Bibles include it or not, the meaning is clear to theologians.

Second, the muslims’ problem with the Bible is that they compare it to the quran; According to you, the quran is the “exact” words of God. Christianity has absolutly no such concept. I’ll give a brief, general view of the Bible’s compilation. Muslims think that Christians are “the people of the Book”…this is false because Early Christians did not have a book…at that time, scripture was spread orally…The NT we have today was not written as such in the first century…that is, the Apostles ( or whoever it were) did NOT decide on a sunny day to sit around a table and write the Bible we have today…what the apostles did was to send “personal” letters to their friends or to their Churches or to other believers; they did NOT know that their writings will end up to be THE BIBLE OF THE CHRISTIANS…no one of them knew that people will read Marc and Mathew for example and examine each word asking : why did Marc use this word & Matthew this? they had absolutely no idea of this…in fact, we SHOULD doubt the Bible if all the apostles wrote the same thing…yet, we find perfect unity in the 4 gospels and in all the letters…simply put, the authors wrote personal letters to specified people to preach about the “good news” and to give their testimonies…there was absolutely no intention of writing a whole, academic Bible for Christians…thats why we say the Bible is not a doctrinal book…we need the early Fathers to explain the dogmas & doctrines coz the authors of the Bible had no intention of writing a doctrinal book but purely a faith testimony…yet all the Bible, written by so many people, have the same message: Jesus was crucified, resurrected for atonment of sins…He is the Lord of the sabbath, the Word that became flesh…So when one reads for example the storm miracle in the 3 gospels, one should not look for the specific words each used, but for the general idea that these people wanted to express : that Jesus stopped the storm. Had the authors the intention to give a book for all Christians in the world, they should have indeed sat around a table and gave the exact events, words and doctrines…if this happened, then we SHOULD doubt the Bible.
So what triggered the compilation of all these testimonies and letters? it is simply the fact that the Christians needed a unified book agaisnt the heresies that started to spread. Thus hundreds of priests, theologians of that time gathered themselves and collected the letters and testimonies they have had from the time of Jesus…the ones they were sure of , were put in the Bible…the ones that casted some doubts about his author or divine source was put aside and we still have them. In the 4th century the Bible was translated into Greek from its original copy but we no longer have the original copy due to the heavy persecusions of Christians…Dioklisianos , the Roman emperor issued money currency where he wrote: “to the remembrance of the extinct Christianity”…He got extinct thousands of years ago and Christianity is still here, thx God…Rome & Jerusalem were burnt down many times…we still have in Rome archeological sites on which the fish symbol used by early Christians as a faith statement. And no archeological discovery ever proved the Bible wrong. The Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestants have a unified Bible calle Vandike (spelling?)…all the translations now pose absolutely no problem from a Christian point of view.
But the most important is that the Bible we have today is the same Bible that produced thousands of saints who are doing miracles in our lives…the land i come from has produced great Saints whose miracles are reaching those who ask for them whether Christians or Muslims…Jesus is the same Biblical Jesus in whose name priests cast out demon; i dont know if any of you witnessed exorcisms…i did…Satan trembles at the sight of the Cross…i saw Muslims being freed in the name of Lord Jesus and the Trinity…this same Bible produced great priests in my country who are doing miracles in Jesus’ name; this same Biblical Jesus that grants peace to his followers, who takes away their problems just as he promised and who gives them light and love just as he said…this same Jesus who said : do not fear for i am with you" is the source of our courage & hope.This same Bible that changed the life of the apostles from sinful to saints ,that did and is doing the same with us since 2000 years ago for we are invited to our Father’'s kingdom as saints, to follow in the footsteps of Mother Theresa & all the Saints…this is the biggest proof the Bible is the Word of God.
 
I’d like to conclude with the idea that Jesus himself promised that his words will not change until heaven and earth pass away & that nothing can stand against His Church- yes the Church had many mistakes but Jesus is our Helper for it is his Church…Satan can enter it but can never destroy it for Jesus said : do not fear for i have conquered the world. God who said that He wants all his children saved & that it saddens him to see people choosing their own hell would NEVER allow that his words be corrupt leading millions to hell…on the contrary, the God’s words lead millions to sainthood… The concept of an Omnipotent Merciful God would never allow such a deception on mankind. God wants us all saved. A deity that deceives, corrupts or allow the corruptness of its word leading billions to hell is not God but satan.

Archeology is still revealing great manuscripts…the OT we have today is the same one written 2500 years ago…another proof that God keeps his promise.

All the Praise to our Lord jesus, the King of the Kings, the Morning Star, the death Conqueror, the Alfa & Omega; We Love You and We Praise You for you are the Truth, Way and Life. Please forgive us our mistakes for you deserve much more than we are doing; you deserve our life life for you are the source of our life, joy & hope. You made us know how much God loves us; you, the humble servant who washed the feet of your disciples; you, our Lord, to whom Mary broke a jar of perfume to wash your feet but you broke your body on the cross to wash us with the most precious blood. Forgive us, Lord, for many of us do not know what they are doing.
 
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amgid:
Interesting discussion between inJESUS, StMarkEofE, Justice2006, Marilena, and others on Genesis 1:26 “And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: . . .” I thought you might like to know what the Mormon take on that is. As you may know, LDS possess additional volumes of scripture besides the Bible, one of which is known as the Book of Moses. The Book of Moses is a more complete version of the first few chapters of Genesis, and you can read the complete text of it here. That book renders the above passage of scripture as follows: "And I, God, said unto mine Only Begotten, which was with me from the beginning: Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and it was so." (Moses 2:26.) Therefore the “us” and “our” does indeed refer to the members of the Godhead; but that does not mean that it supports the traditional doctrine of the Trinity. Our understanding of the Trinity is different from the traditional one.

amgid
Mormon? when did this start?
 
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inJESUS:
. . .

All the Praise to our Lord jesus, the King of the Kings, the Morning Star, the death Conqueror, the Alfa & Omega; We Love You and We Praise You for you are the Truth, Way and Life. Please forgive us our mistakes for you deserve much more than we are doing; you deserve our life life for you are the source of our life, joy & hope. You made us know how much God loves us; you, the humble servant who washed the feet of your disciples; you, our Lord, to whom Mary broke a jar of perfume to wash your feet but you broke your body on the cross to wash us with the most precious blood. Forgive us, Lord, for many of us do not know what they are doing.
🙂 Your praise above reminded me of one of the Psalm-Prayers from today’s Morning Prayer:
Lord, you have renewed the face of the earth. Your Church throughout the world sings you a new song, announcing your wonders to all. Through a virgin, you have brought forth a new birth in our world; through your miracles, a new power; through your suffering, a new patience; in your resurrection, a new hope, and in your ascension, a new majesty.
 
what a coincidence 🙂 maybe you can quote it for me later coz i don’t know it 🙂 thx

edit : oops sorry i didnt see your second quote 🙂
 
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amgid:
He that “judgeth rashly, shall be judge rashly again . . . of the Lord”
(Mormon 8:19).
amgid
i needed an answer as to when it started…i google it…so the Church that Jesus based started in 1800s?

No offense, but it makes me sad to see how each one in the last 200 years claimed a new church.

Let’s all pray for the Unification of Jesus’ Church…God does not divide his people.

InChrist
 
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Joseph_Alison:
Douay-RheimsAnd there are three who give testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost. And these three are one” [1JN 5:7]

NABSo there are three that testify,” [1JN 5:7]

Big difference! which one is correct?

Salaam.
Joseph.
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inJESUS:
Jesus’ blessings to all,
Thank you Joseph for putting the verses from both translations. Both these verses are correct because in the Greek Bible, one of them is written by the author as a sidenote ,explanation, elaboration, you name it. So whether all Bibles include it or not, the meaning is clear to theologians.
Mr. inJESUS,

Howcome it was only recently occured/revealed to the compliers/ftranslators of an another Catholic Bible (New American Bible) that the **verse 7 ** of 1 John 5 is not actual inspired verse of Saint John?

Prior to the discovery of the Biblical scholars of the New American Bible, which was first published in 1970 in full form, all those Catholics who have been reading/following the Douay Rheims Latin Vulgate Bible, were under the full impression that 1 John 5:7 is inspired by St. John’s Holy Spirit. But after 1970, it is not an inspired verse anymore.
Keep in mind that:
The New Testament of The New American Bible, a fresh translation from the Greek text, was first published in complete form in 1970, together with the Old Testament translation that had been completed the previous year.
usccb.org/nab/prefnew86.shtml ]

Now Mr. inJESUS, please tell me if 1 John 5:7 was not an inspired verse of Holy Spirit of Saint john, but a sidenote/explanation then whose sidenote/explanation was it which was INSERTED into the text of John’s Gospel. In other words who put his own words in Saint John’s mouth?

.
 
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inJESUS:
…this same Bible produced great priests in my country who are doing miracles in Jesus’ name; this same Biblical Jesus that grants peace to his followers, who takes away their problems just as he promised and who gives them light …
Mr. inJesus,

So every time when your Bible is proved to be a corrupted text, you start talking about the “miracles” of the great priests . 🙂

Now, how about hiring those great priests as medical doctors in all Hospitals in Christian “civilised” countries to treat medical/physical/“spiritual” diseases of atleast Christians, instead of wasting lot of money on medial research and paying and hiring Medical Doctors? The western “civilised” world can save a huge amount of money if they recruit/hire all those great priests that you are talking, as healers to perfrom “miracles”.

And how many times you went to any of thosegreat priests to get cured when you fell sick?

.
 
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inJESUS:
Archeology is still revealing great manuscripts…
Mr. inJESUS,

Even after 2000 years archeology is still “revealing”?
Revealing that verse** 1 John 5:7** was acutally a sidenote/explanation of an UNKNOWN author and not the words inspired by the Holy Spirit of Saint John?

.
 
Justice,
Your Koran is the corrupted version of Judaism, and contains many anti-Christian biases as well because its writers wrote it with an agenda of trumping both religions. They were first scholars of those two ancient religions, and then invented their own. Since it copies Judaism, and uses some of Christ’s philosophies which they agreed with, it contains some truth so I can indeed call you a brother in faith.
It is the fact that your scriptures were part of a collaboration, and a concerted effort to trump the two faiths it copied, that contributes to making your Koran suspect. The Bible, as other scholars on here have pointed out to you, was not a collaboration. Ancient writings other than the Bible, archaeological evidence, and current church teachings, show that the Bible was letters written by the Apostles, and the one’s they ordained to the early Christian communities. They are Holy Scripture because they contain the life of Jesus, and what the early Church believed in regards to His life and its meaning for all of mankind. Now, Justice, since you have been brought up in another faith that contains some truth, but not all of it, you are not to blame for your beliefs. But unless you are open to changing them, I’d stay away from this site like the plague, because if you do hear the Truth, and then reject it, this will be upon you. You can go on being the best Muslim you can be, but if you are given the Gospel, whether through words or deeds of a Christian, and you reject them then it will be your choice.
Those priests which you deride do God’s work. God’s work is everywhere, not just in supernatural miracles. We do not look for these, but God gives them to us to bolster our faith. We DO go to a priest for healing, because God gives life and God can take it away. But we are not so dogmatic that we won’t go to the hospital.
 
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amgid:
Also, there is little reason to doubt that earliest Christians believed in the subordination of the Son to the Father.
Ignatius of Antioch (where Christians were first called Christians), whom knew the Apostles personally did not. The first to write down the name of the Church was the Catholic Church. He went so far (shock!) of calling Jesus God. God does not divide himself between 3 separate beings united in one purpose as the Mormon Godhead does.

John 5:18
Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God. (KJV)

HE MADE HIMSELF EQUAL WITH GOD! According to the official Mormon Scripture (KJV) He IS not subordinate, but on your own KJV he made Himself equal!
 
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TheRaiders:
Those priests which you deride do God’s work. God’s work is everywhere, not just in supernatural miracles. We do not look for these, but God gives them to us to bolster our faith. We DO go to a priest for healing, because God gives life and God can take it away. But we are not so dogmatic that we won’t go to the hospital.
Well Mr. TheRaiders, miracles are not the only criteria to judge whether a man’s faith is genuine or not.

There are many deceivers who can deceive innocent people from their “miracles”. And there are many “spiritual” leaders/priests who claim to have got same holy spirit and under the “inspiration”. All this proves what?
 
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Justice2006:
Mr. inJESUS,

Even after 2000 years archeology is still “revealing”?
Revealing that verse** 1 John 5:7** was acutally a sidenote/explanation of an UNKNOWN author and not the words inspired by the Holy Spirit of Saint John?

.
Yep, a few months ago in Jerusalem a team of archaeologists found what is known to be the oldest Christian church which was built around 200 AD. Had an altar, a fish, everything. It was on the site of what is now an Israeli prison, and the Israelis are going to be moving their prison to a new location out of respect of the recent find. They are also constantly finding new caves which the early Christians used for worship to avoid the persecution of the Roman authorities while the religion was outlawed. One more thing, if you’re interested in what our church fathers wrote about the early church you can visit newadvent.org/fathers/ and ccel.org/. None of them speak about a theology close to modern day Islam. Muhammad needed a religion which would help him unite the local traders and help him build up a united army with a common goal to overthrow the local regimes in Mecca and Medina.
 
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