The Trinity

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Hi - this might be a silly question but it’s something I’ve been wondering about:

As I understand it God revealed himself to the Jews before Christ physically came into the world as a man. God’s revelation to the Jews (before Christ) is described in the Old Testament.

My question is: did God reveal his “triune” nature (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) to the Jews in Old Testament times, or was this only revealed during Christ’s time on earth (i.e. the New Testament era)? The reason I ask is that if God has always been a Trinity, wouldn’t this aspect of his nature have been revealed to the Jews in the Old Testament days, when he communicated with them? From my knowledge of the Bible I don’t recall any part in the Old Testament in which God is referred to or acknowledged as being Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Is this correct or am I missing something?
 
If there was not a (revealed) “Son” yet, then it would not be a trinity, would it? 😉
 
\My question is: did God reveal his “triune” nature (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) to the Jews in Old Testament times, \

**Yes.

Genesis 19–the three angels that came to Abraham. He bowed down before them and addressed them collectively as “My Lord”–YHVH, in other words.**
 
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” Scripture is clear and like God is the truth; can’t be anything else if it is of God. In addition, “the Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us” tells us that Jesus Christ is the Word of God, and he affirms that when he states that he is “the truth.” So, he has been with God, is with God, and going to be with God, and we’re in Him. Praise God!
I personally believe that any physical manifestation of God was, and is, and will be Jesus Christ. My opinion.
The Spirit of God has been present from the beginning. He was “hovering over the waters” just before the Word was spoken and this creation and it’s creatures came into being. He also is responsible for the entire canon of Scripture; He breathed on Moses, the Prophets, the Apostles, and the others.
So you see, all three have been, are, and will be; an awesome God!
 
God has always been Triune, that is not the OP’s question, I don’t think. Was His Truine nature revealed to the Jews before the Incarnation? No.

There are things we read in the Hebrew Scriptures which to us as Christians obviously speak of the Trinity - but that’s because we read with eyes that have beheld the Incarnation.

God had to first reveal Himself as ONE, before He could reveal the even more incomprehesible Mystery of the Trinity.
 
Hi - this might be a silly question but it’s something I’ve been wondering about:

As I understand it God revealed himself to the Jews before Christ physically came into the world as a man. God’s revelation to the Jews (before Christ) is described in the Old Testament.

My question is: did God reveal his “triune” nature (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) to the Jews in Old Testament times, or was this only revealed during Christ’s time on earth (i.e. the New Testament era)? The reason I ask is that if God has always been a Trinity, wouldn’t this aspect of his nature have been revealed to the Jews in the Old Testament days, when he communicated with them? From my knowledge of the Bible I don’t recall any part in the Old Testament in which God is referred to or acknowledged as being Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Is this correct or am I missing something?
Hi, there.

To go with other answers, I’ll posit one other reason why God did not reveal His complete nature:

The Jews weren’t ready for it.

In a world filled with polythesism (right up to Christ’s time, in fact) revealing Himself as three persons in one being would have been confusing to the point of some believing in a three-god diety. (The Hebrews still had a hard time not worshipping idols.)

God has always been a “keep it simple, stupid” kinda of Creator in motives when teaching His flock. Once Judaism had taken full hold centuries later and knew that there was only one God could Christ appear and elaborate more on His nature with the Father and Holy Spirit.
 
Hi, there.

To go with other answers, I’ll posit one other reason why God did not reveal His complete nature:

The Jews weren’t ready for it.

In a world filled with polythesism (right up to Christ’s time, in fact) revealing Himself as three persons in one being would have been confusing to the point of some believing in a three-god diety. (The Hebrews still had a hard time not worshipping idols.)

God has always been a “keep it simple, stupid” kinda of Creator in motives when teaching His flock. Once Judaism had taken full hold centuries later and knew that there was only one God could Christ appear and elaborate more on His nature with the Father and Holy Spirit.
I second. This is exactly right.
 
Think of Israel as a child. Do you teach a child Calculus, or do you set the building block so that, when that child grows up, he can understand Calculus. You teach math in steps, letting each step build on the next one.

This is how God revealed Himself to Israel, culminating in the Pentecost!
 
God did not reveal his triune nature to the Hebrews before Christ. He did hint at it the OT in though.

Then God said, “Let** us** make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth.”

-Genesis 1:26

This is the most revealing passage about the trinity in the OT that i have come across.
 
My question is: did God reveal his “triune” nature (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) to the Jews in Old Testament times, or was this only revealed during Christ’s time on earth (i.e. the New Testament era)? The reason I ask is that if God has always been a Trinity, wouldn’t this aspect of his nature have been revealed to the Jews in the Old Testament days, when he communicated with them? From my knowledge of the Bible I don’t recall any part in the Old Testament in which God is referred to or acknowledged as being Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Is this correct or am I missing something?
God did not reveal Himself as “triune” in the OT. The NT also does not reveal a God that is one substance yet three persons. Both the Old and New Testaments represent God as a duality – God, the Father, and the Yahweh who became Jesus Christ.

In the NT there is no mystery about the oneness of God and no attempt to depict that three are one in any kind of statement. Neither is there any indication that the idea of a Trinity had taken form. This idea that God is triune is a creation of the fourth century by theologians steeped in Greek philosophy. Even in the days of the apostles this doctrine was yet to be created. What we must realize is that the word “Trinity” appeared in Christian literature only in the beginning of the third century and was not believed until a few more centuries.

In his book on the Trinity, Catholic theologian Karl Rahner recognizes that theologians in the past have been “…embarrassed by the simple fact that in reality the Scriptures do not explicitly present a doctrine of the ‘imminent’ Trinity (even John’s prologue is no such doctrine)” (The Trinity, p. 22)).

Other theologians also recognize that the first chapter of John’s Gospel clearly shows the pre-existence and divinity of Christ but does not teach that the Godhead is a Trinity. Commenting on John’s prologue, Dr. William Clarke writes: “There is no Trinity in this; but there is a distinction in the godhead, a duality in God. This distinction or duality is used as basis for the idea of an only-begotten Son, and as key to the possibility of an incarnation” (Outline of Christian Theology, p. 167).

According to Berkhof, many theologians of the second and third centuries thought of the Father and Son in terms of subordination (the Son subordinate to the Father) following the triadic and emanatistic Hellenic philosophy of their day (The Doctrine of the Holy Spirit: The Annie Kinkead Warfield Lectures; 1963-1964).

Following the deaths of the original apostles, the Apostolic Fathers came on the scene about the middle of the second century. Their writings show no metaphysical explanations for the new conceptions of God. What caused these new conceptions was the changing environment of the church which contributed heavily to the shaping of faith and theology. The change from the heavenly Father in the Sermon on the Mount to the dogma of the Trinity represents, according to Hatch and Harnack, a degeneration rather than a development, a corruption of the truth from its earliest simplicity (Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics, edited by James Hastings).

Apologists such as Ignatius of Antioch saw no relevancy in applying the Holy Spirit to the same level as the Father and Son. Justin Martyr did not have any dogmatic view regarding the Spirit and the relations of the three persons are not worked out. Athenagoras mentions a triad early in his writings but Justin’s disciple Tatian had no doctrine regarding the Trinity and made only a vague reference to a triad. For many Christians of the time having no knowledge of a triad was sufficient, and they certainly were not concerned with interrelations (The Early Christian Doctrine of God, 1966, by Robert Grant).

Around AD 320 a series of doctrinal disputes opened with the Arian controversy, first with the nature and being of the Logos becoming man in Christ, and then the relation of this Logos to the Father. The question of the position of the Holy Spirit was of necessity dragged into the discussion (Church History, 1889, by Professor Kurtz). The end result of this controversy was the Nicene Council of AD 325 which adopted what was considered to be the standard of orthodoxy. Those who opposed the decision of the council felt that tritheism (three gods) would be the inevitable consequence, but it took three more centuries to decide anything regarding the Holy Spirit.

Following the Council of Nicea, it was clear that the personality of the Holy Spirit, as well as its relationship to the Father and the Son, had not yet been determined. The definition given the Holy Spirit at the Council was so incomplete that 500 years later the schism that rent the Eastern and Western churches is found in this doctrinal basis (Church History, 1889, by Professor Kurtz).

The doctrine of the Trinity is not a product of the earliest Christian period; it was not expressed until the end of the second century. In its development Christians made use of the methods already worked out by Platonists and Pythagoreans for explaining their own philosophical theology. Novatian of Rome wrote one of the early treatises dealing specifically with the Trinity and at that time affirmed the existence of two Gods (The Early Christian Doctrine of God, 1966, by Robert Grant).

A closer examination of the Trinitarian doctrine would reveal it is not a part of Scripture. It is the product of Greek speculation and a faulty interpretation of various biblical texts which have had preconceived ideas read into them. It took 300 years to develop the doctrine which even today generates more problems than it solves.
 
Mailman:

Thanks for your reply, that’s very interesting. So are you saying you think the Trinity is a false doctrine? Isn’t this doctrine held by most mainstream Christians (and not just Catholics)? What is your view of the nature of God, in this regard?

Can anyone answer the points that were rasied in this post, from a Catholic perspective?
 
Following the Council of Nicea, it was clear that the personality of the Holy Spirit, as well as its relationship to the Father and the Son, had not yet been determined. The definition given the Holy Spirit at the Council was so incomplete that 500 years later the schism that rent the Eastern and Western churches is found in this doctrinal basis (Church History, 1889, by Professor Kurtz).

The doctrine of the Trinity is not a product of the earliest Christian period; it was not expressed until the end of the second century. In its development Christians made use of the methods already worked out by Platonists and Pythagoreans for explaining their own philosophical theology. Novatian of Rome wrote one of the early treatises dealing specifically with the Trinity and at that time affirmed the existence of two Gods (The Early Christian Doctrine of God, 1966, by Robert Grant).

A closer examination of the Trinitarian doctrine would reveal it is not a part of Scripture. It is the product of Greek speculation and a faulty interpretation of various biblical texts which have had preconceived ideas read into them. It took 300 years to develop the doctrine which even today generates more problems than it solves.
Justin Martyr, Ignatius, and even Ireneaus each had different “problems” to solve. And in many ways, these problems needed to be resolved before the Church could fuller understand the Trinity. For instance, how can we come to understand the Doctrine of the Trinity while we are still trying to hash out whether Jesus is Divine or not? St. Ireneaus and the Church worked at doing this for several centuries.

It’s like:
a) Is the God of the Old Testament the same God of the New Testament (I think this was called Marcionism (2nd century?).
b) Is Jesus God, or is He a created Angel, or is He just a great guy? (Gnosticism and other heresies developed these theories. Even Mary as “Mother of God” came to be understood in order to help resolve the teaching on Jesus’ Divinity and Manhood.
c) The Doctrine of the Trinity to combat Arianism.

Its funny that, through heresies, the Church comes to a fuller understanding of the Truth. That’s how we came to develop the teaching on the Eucharist and even resolving the Canon of Scripture.
 
The doctrine of the Trinity is not a product of the earliest Christian period; it was not expressed until the end of the second century. In its development Christians made use of the methods already worked out by Platonists and Pythagoreans for explaining their own philosophical theology. Novatian of Rome wrote one of the early treatises dealing specifically with the Trinity and at that time affirmed the existence of two Gods (The Early Christian Doctrine of God, 1966, by Robert Grant).
I think this is a fair statement, but I’m not sure if I agree with what (I think) you are implying with this statement. You see, Faith and Reason is what has led the Church to understanding these things. Faith is great to keep one in union with Christ, but Faith and Reason is beneficial to leading others to Christ. St. Peter talks about this in one of his Epistles. And, admittedly, our Greek understanding of Philosophy has been a double edged sword, for though is HAS led to heretical theories, it has also resolved these problems and come to a fuller understanding of the Faith.
A closer examination of the Trinitarian doctrine would reveal it is not a part of Scripture. It is the product of Greek speculation and a faulty interpretation of various biblical texts which have had preconceived ideas read into them. It took 300 years to develop the doctrine which even today generates more problems than it solves.
I think this is basing a false theory on the fact that one disagrees with what the Church teaches (which can only be done if one puts more authority on their own Scripture interpretation than the Church… the same Church that is Scripturally given that authority! Now THAT’S an oxymoron!) and so claims that the Church is interpreting Scripture incorrectly.

Jesus, on the Road to Emmaus, revealed many things in Scripture that weren’t evident to the Jews. The Church comes to understand the evidences of the Trinity as well as prophecies of Jesus all throughout the Old Testament that aren’t apparent to someone who doesn’t believe in the Trinity or all of the teachings of Jesus.

Let me try a different angle. Have you ever watched a well-done mystery movie and been totally confused until the ending. After the ending, you go back and realize, “Oh THAT’s what the wife meant when she said…” or “… THAT’s why the light was left on in the shed…”. This is how the Church has come to a fuller understanding of the Scriptural basis for ALL of Her teachings.
 
Mailman:

Thanks for your reply, that’s very interesting. So are you saying you think the Trinity is a false doctrine? Isn’t this doctrine held by most mainstream Christians (and not just Catholics)? What is your view of the nature of God, in this regard?

Can anyone answer the points that were rasied in this post, from a Catholic perspective?
Thanks for asking. Yes, I believe that the doctrine of the Trinity is false. And you are right, this doctrine is held by mainstream Christians.

As for the nature of God, the Bible reveals that God is a family. That Family is headed by the Father and now consists of the Father and the Son, Jesus Christ. These two divine Beings have always existed and will always exist. Their plan and desire are to add many more members into the God Family – “bringing many sons unto glory” (Heb. 2:10). Jesus Christ is “the firstborn among many brethren” (Rom. 8:29), that is, the first, among many, to be born into the family of God.

Human beings have the potential to be born into that divine family, to be “like” Christ Himself: “Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he [Christ] shall appear, WE SHALL BE LIKE HIM; for we shall see him as he is” (1 John 3:2). Just as human children are the same kind of beings as their parents (that is, human beings), so will God’s children be the same kind of beings as the Father and Christ (that is, divine beings).

All children of this family – including Christ, who has always been with the One whom Christ revealed as “the Father” – will forever in the future willingly be under the ultimate sovereignty and leadership of the Father (1 Cor. 15:28). This Family will be one in thought and purpose, fulfilling Jesus’ prayer to the Father that “they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us…” (John 17:21). As Paul says of God’s Church, “But now are they many members, yet but one body” (1 Cor. 12:20).

The God family is a growing family, presently comprising of two divine Beings, yet ultimately to be joined by many more “born again” human beings (human beings reborn into spirit by a resurrection). Belief in a Trinity clouds the real purpose that God has in store for us. If we are taught that God is a closed Trinity of three persons, we lose sight of God’s real purpose to create many more members of the God family – to “[bring] many sons unto glory.”

The majority of this world’s Christians believe in a Trinity because Satan has deceived the whole world (Rev. 12:9). Satan doesn’t want us to rule in his place [together with Christ], so He wants us to think that God is a closed Trinity, not a growing family in which we may, through God’s grace, enter and become a member.

God bless.
 
The Holy Spirit is the Love shared between the Father and the Son. We are called to be part of this Love.
 
Thanks for asking. Yes, I believe that the doctrine of the Trinity is false.

[snip]

Belief in a Trinity clouds the real purpose that God has in store for us. If we are taught that God is a closed Trinity of three persons, we lose sight of God’s real purpose to create many more members of the God family – to “[bring] many sons unto glory.”

The majority of this world’s Christians believe in a Trinity because Satan has deceived the whole world (Rev. 12:9). Satan doesn’t want us to rule in his place [together with Christ], so He wants us to think that God is a closed Trinity, not a growing family in which we may, through God’s grace, enter and become a member.

God bless.
And this, my friends, is why Jesus left us with the gift of an authoritative Church, not just a written revelation.
 
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