The Trinity.

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Help please! My hubby and I are both Catholics, and we currently have staying with us some dear friends, who love the Lord very much, but are ‘Bible-believing’ Christians.

I was expecting the usual questions regarding Mary, the Mass, etc. to surface at some stage, but their main point for discussion at present (and it’s wonderful, friendly discussions) is the Trinity. They do not believe in the Trinity, and believe it be ‘unbiblical’.

I have a few verses: John 10:30, 1 John 5:7, and the use of the word ‘us’ in Genesis 1:26 - and, of course, the whole ‘Baptise them in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit’ - any others?

Can anyone help, point me in the direction of a good article we can then discuss, etc.?

Or offer any further verses and such that support the doctrine of the Trinity?

It’s going to be a fun week! It’s all friendly and chatty right now - please pray we can discuss these things, and STAY friends! I’m cautious, I’ve lost too many dear friends already…

Thankyou!
 
How can the name of a creature identify a people 'of ’ God unless that name is the name of God?

If I call myself Christian but don’t believe the Christ is God haven’t I made an idol of a creature?

There is no other religion named after a human and center their worship around that human and call themselves what that human was called. That’s because they don;t believe the humans that shed light on God are God either.

Jesus claimed to have power over life. Only God is the giver of life.

[

](Douay-Rheims Bible, John Chapter 10)
John 10:17
Therefore doth the Father love me: because I lay down my life, that I may take it again.

John 10:18
No man taketh it away from me: but I lay it down of myself, and I have power to lay it down: and I have power to take it up again.
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Jesus said John the Baptist was the greatest man born of woman. Jesus was pointing to John as greater than Himself? Was Jesus saying He wasn’t born of woman? Born of woman was a euphamism for Eve since she is everyone’s mother after the flesh. So, yes, Jesus is saying He isn’t of this generation . This becomes clearer when you read what Jesus teaches after saying that about John.

There are many other proofs that Jesus is God. Things that Jesus said that couldonly be said if He were God.
 
AtHisFeet said:
Help please! My hubby and I are both Catholics, and we currently have staying with us some dear friends, who love the Lord very much, but are ‘Bible-believing’ Christians.

I was expecting the usual questions regarding Mary, the Mass, etc. to surface at some stage, but their main point for discussion at present (and it’s wonderful, friendly discussions) is the Trinity. They do not believe in the Trinity, and believe it be ‘unbiblical’.

I have a few verses: John 10:30, 1 John 5:7, and the use of the word ‘us’ in Genesis 1:26 - and, of course, the whole ‘Baptise them in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit’ - any others?

Can anyone help, point me in the direction of a good article we can then discuss, etc.?

Or offer any further verses and such that support the doctrine of the Trinity?

It’s going to be a fun week! It’s all friendly and chatty right now - please pray we can discuss these things, and STAY friends! I’m cautious, I’ve lost too many dear friends already…

Thankyou!
Click to expand...
Genesis 1:26

Then God said: "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. Let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, the birds of the air, and the cattle, and over all the wild animals and all the creatures that crawl on the ground."
 
AtHisFeet said:
Help please! My hubby and I are both Catholics, and we currently have staying with us some dear friends, who love the Lord very much, but are ‘Bible-believing’ Christians.

I was expecting the usual questions regarding Mary, the Mass, etc. to surface at some stage, but their main point for discussion at present (and it’s wonderful, friendly discussions) is the Trinity. They do not believe in the Trinity, and believe it be ‘unbiblical’.

I have a few verses: John 10:30, 1 John 5:7, and the use of the word ‘us’ in Genesis 1:26 - and, of course, the whole ‘Baptise them in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit’ - any others?

Can anyone help, point me in the direction of a good article we can then discuss, etc.?

Or offer any further verses and such that support the doctrine of the Trinity?

It’s going to be a fun week! It’s all friendly and chatty right now - please pray we can discuss these things, and STAY friends! I’m cautious, I’ve lost too many dear friends already…

Thankyou!
Click to expand...
St. Alphonsus of Liguori has a book, “The History of Heresies and their Refutation,” available FOR FREE here (on a .pdf), where he talks at length about the Trinity. (That begins on page 400 of the above-mentioned .pdf.) His two best points, I think, are Genesis 1:27 and Matthew 28:19.

He says that in Gen. 1:27, God says, “Let us make,” using the plural pronoun, to refer to the plurality of persons, but says “in our image,” in the singular, to show the unity of nature.

Regarding Matt. 28:19, he says that in baptizing “in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit,” the Bible either identifies all three as one being, or else gives the name of God to two creatures, Jesus and the Spirit, if indeed they are mere creatures as the Arians say. Rather, it gives them all the same divine name because they are all the same divine Being, i.e. God. For it does not speak of three names for these three persons, but one name, and that name is surely the Divine one, since to baptized in any other name is of no avail.
 
The best explanation I have found on the Trinity was in the catholic-legate site, but it’s not there anymore. I liked it so much, I kept it in my files:

The human family is the closest analogy that mankind will ever come to concretely understanding the Blessed Trinity.

The creeds teach that while there is one God, He exists in three distinct persons. The bible, on the other hand, reveals that man is made in the ‘image of God’. From these two truths, therefore, we can acknowledge that the complete image of God is found in the Triune understanding of Him.

This understanding of His Triune nature is reflected by the human family whose personal relationships approach the likeness of the Trinity. There are multiple demonstrations of this truth.

Consider the unity of the Trinity which is reflected in the unity of the family. Or the “family of persons” which is found in both. The persons of the Trinity share the 'same substance ’ while a human family becomes one flesh: wife with husband and parents with children.

There is also another element in the Trinity that lends itself to human likeness. The Nicene Creed professes this about the Trinity: “We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life who proceeds from the Father and the Son.”

In Catholic theology, the Holy Spirit is said to proceed from the will of both the Father and the Son, or in other words, through the activity which they engage in, otherwise known as “love”.

The Holy Spirit is poured forth through the exchange of love between the Father and the Son. This is why perhaps Jesus says to the Apostles: " Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you." (John 16:7)

In the eternal economy of the Trinity, therefore, a person ‘proceeds’ from the love between two other persons. And so, the Holy Spirit is love ‘proceeding’ or ‘coming from’ the first two persons of the Blessed Trinity.

The human family has a rather striking parallel to this dynamic. The ultimate act of intimacy in a marriage mirrors the eternal exchange of love between the first two persons of the Trinity.

And like the eternal or continual procession of the Holy Spirit in the Trinity, the act of love between a man and a woman causes a ‘procession’ of another human person (i.e. the birth of a child).

Thus, it is precisely because the homosexual sex act is not ordered to the procession of another person, that it can never be a Trinitarian reflection of the divine essence.

Indeed, the sexual act itself, which is supposed to be a reflection of the Trinitarian relationship, becomes, through the homosexual act, a blasphemy against God since it ends up distorting the Trinitarian image of Him.

The human sexual act either affirms God’s image or it distorts it. This is why all forms of contraceptive sex, including the homosexual act, are serious sins: they seek to create God in another image. It is anti-Trinitarian.

You may wish to alter or delete the last 3 paragraphs as they may draw the discussion off topic.
 
If I may ask; ‘what Bible believing Christian’ rejects the Trinity? Did they join an Adventist denomination such as JW or SDA?
 
Yes, interesting point, isn’t it?

They have not joined either of those, but through their own study of the scriptures, say they believe that the doctrine of the Trinity is, and I quote, ‘unbiblical’.

We didn’t really get into it all as much as I though we might, but I did ask, and their responses were something like:

“On the cross, Jesus cries out ‘My God, My God’ - if he was God, why did he need a God?”

"When Paul writes to the churches, he does not greet them in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit’, showing the three are not equal.’

So, I asked if they believed Jesus was God. ‘Yes, but not in the same way as the Father - He is God because of where He came from’.

Is the Holy Spirit God? ‘Yes, because the Holy Spirit comes from God, but again, it (He) is not God in the same way as the Father’.

They still claim there is only One God - the Father.

But the more they explained it, the more I began to think that they actually did believe in the Trinity, they just didn’t ‘think’ they did!

Also, because the word ‘Trinity’ does not appear in the Bible - that was a point, also.

I didn’t throw in too much to attack their belief - the more they talked, the more they back-tracked, side-stepped, and basically, I think deep down, they began to see their error.

I’ll leave that to God, though - hopefully, through our discussion on it, a seed was planted for further study on the matter.

Thanks for the helpful links, they were most appreciated.
 
I am a “bible-believing” Christian and that is why I came home to Catholicism and left Protestantism. The Bible is 100% Catholic, after all, the Catholic Church gave us the Bible.

So ask them these questions:
  1. WHICH Bible do they believe in?
  2. Did they know there is more than 1 Bible?
  3. Where/when/who did their Bible come from?
  4. Why did they choose this Bible and not another version?
  5. What proof do they have that God favors their version of the Bible?
  6. Where does God tell us to read the Bible? That He gave us the Bible? That their Bible is perfect?
I say stop defending the Catholic Church, you have 2,000 years of Saints that have done that much better than you or I can ever do. Start making them prove why and when and from whom they stopped believing what Christians have believed for 2,000 years! When in history did the notion of Jesus as not God start? Their research, if they will do it cause most protestants I know refuse to look at history, will show their protestant beliefs to be NEW inventions. God does not change but their beliefs do!

Read the Church Fathers and only one Church believes today what they believed in 2,000 years ago, and you guessed it, it’s the Catholic Church.

I was a Protestant for over 27 adult years of my life. We lived by making Catholics answer all the questions without ever having to answer any ourselves. Of course, my old Protestant beliefs changed to make whatever it was I believed that day to be true since no one is in charge and everyone is right no matter what you believe in (except the Catholics and they are ALWAYS WRONG no matter what they believe! 😉 ?

It is an old debating trick to stay on the attack and never answer any questions, just smear the other guy, that’s the trick your friends are playing whether they realize it or not.

Stop answering and start asking the questions.
 
AtHisFeet said:
Help please! My hubby and I are both Catholics, and we currently have staying with us some dear friends, who love the Lord very much, but are ‘Bible-believing’ Christians.

I was expecting the usual questions regarding Mary, the Mass, etc. to surface at some stage, but their main point for discussion at present (and it’s wonderful, friendly discussions) is the Trinity. They do not believe in the Trinity, and believe it be ‘unbiblical’.

I have a few verses: John 10:30, 1 John 5:7, and the use of the word ‘us’ in Genesis 1:26 - and, of course, the whole ‘Baptise them in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit’ - any others?

Can anyone help, point me in the direction of a good article we can then discuss, etc.?

Or offer any further verses and such that support the doctrine of the Trinity?

It’s going to be a fun week! It’s all friendly and chatty right now - please pray we can discuss these things, and STAY friends! I’m cautious, I’ve lost too many dear friends already…

Thankyou!
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There are lots of things which aren’t in the Bible, but that doesn’t make them “unbiblical.” Take abortion, for instance. The Bible doesn’t condemn it, but I think it’s pretty clear that it’s sinful, from a Christian perspective. Drug use isn’t discussed in Scripture, either, but this too is rightly considered by Christians to be sinful.

The Bible is either silent or cryptic about certain theological matters, too. What is man’s purpose on earth? How are faith and works related? Why do we no longer follow Torah? Etc. The answers to these questions are found not in Scripture, but in our interpretation of Scripture. You won’t find a verse in the Bible, for instance, that reads “Christians don’t need to follow Jewish Law, because they’re under a new covenant.” Instead, that’s a theological interpretation which has been passed down through catechesis.

Here is the response I would give to a Trinity skeptic:

I agree that the Trinity is not expressly taught in the Bible. You’re quite right about that. But we nevertheless have two very good reasons to accept the Trinity:

(1) Biblical interpretation: If we interpret Scripture in light of the Trinity, we find it is far more cohesive and harmonious than a non-Trinitarian interpretation. Moreover, at least two of the Biblical authors, Matthew and Paul, dropped pretty big hints that they were Trinitarians (cf. Mt 28:19, 2Co 13:14), even though they did not explicitly teach the Trinity in their extant works.

(2) History: Christians have held to the Trinity since the earliest days of the Church, and fought vigorously against the non-Trinitarian doctrines of Judaizers, Marcionites, Arians, etc.

In other words, acknowledge their concerns, and try to dig underneath their methodology of determining theology.
 
AtHisFeet said:
Yes, interesting point, isn’t it?

They have not joined either of those, but through their own study of the scriptures, say they believe that the doctrine of the Trinity is, and I quote, ‘unbiblical’.

We didn’t really get into it all as much as I though we might, but I did ask, and their responses were something like:
various verses suggestive of non-Trinitarian interpretation snipped]
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Another stupendous example of WHY Jesus founded an authoritative Church and promised it the guidance of the Holy Spirit - and what is wrong with the notion that each individual should read the written Word and figure out what it means independent of the teaching of the Apostles.
 
Forgive me if this has been mentioned already as Ive not had time to go through all the post’s.

You could show your friends these passages of New Testament where The Holy Trinity are mentioned together;

Mt 3:13-17
[16] And when Jesus was baptized, he went up immediately from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and alighting on him; [17] and lo, a voice from heaven, saying, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.”

Mt 17:5
[5] He was still speaking, when lo, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and a voice from the cloud said, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased; listen to him.”

Here the Holy Spirit is in the form of the cloud, like In the Old Testament, God often leads his people with a cloud (the Holy Spirit).

This may not answer your question, but hope it helps in some way.

God Bless.
 
Another thing to consider when looking at these important issues with your friends is what the Councils have declaired. The Councils systematize Scripture and it’s generally found that those who reject the Trinity are simply ignorant that a false premise generates false conclusions.

Most every heresy starts out with putting Christ’s natures in a blender and instead of having a Divine and Human Nature that are perfectly United they blend them up and therefore conclude that Christ isn’t God like the Father is God. Here is an example from a Seventh-day Adventist Ministers education guide.
SDA Ministry Journal For Clergy:
Without question, mystery envelops the Incarnation. But the mystery is regarding how God and man were blended, not why. A perceptive writer observed: “There is no one who can explain the mystery of the incarnation of Christ. Yet we know that He came to this earth and lived as a man among men. The man Christ Jesus was not the Lord God Almighty, yet Christ and the Father are one.” 5
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At the end of the quote you will notice #5. #5 is directing the clergy to a statement made by the prophet Ellen White in which she states that God and Christ are one “in the same way” that Christ and His disciples are one therefore Christ is not Almighty God because the disciples are not almighty God. Here is the quote from Ellen White;
Ellen White:
This unity is expressed also in the seventeenth chapter of John, in the prayer of Christ for His disciples:

“Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on Me through their word; that they all may be one; as Thou, Father, art in Me, and I in Thee, that they also may be one in Us: that the world may believe that Thou hast sent Me. And the glory which Thou gavest Me I have given them; that they may be one, even as We are one: I in them, and Thou in Me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that Thou hast sent Me, and hast loved them, as Thou hast loved Me.” John 17:20-

Wonderful statement! The unity that exists between Christ and His disciples does not destroy the personality of either. They are one in purpose, in mind, in character, but not in person. It is thus that God and Christ are one. {8T 269.4}
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“It is thus that God and Christ are one”.

I can assure you that if your friends reject the Trinity, that rejection can be traced to a false premise which resulted in false conclusions and in that area of theology it always boils down to Jesus not being God but a type of creation from God.
 
Before the creation of the universe began, could the greatest commandments possibly describe part of the trinity

Jesus loves God the Father with all his heart, soul, mind, and strength.
Jesus loves each and every one of us as he loves himself.

God the Father loves God the Son with all his heart, soul, mind, and strength.
The Father loves each and every one of us as he loves himself.

Could the spirit be the power of God’s love; working through the perfection of the greatest commandments?

When Jesus spent his time on Earth, he would have lived by the greatest commandments, could these same commandments possibly describe God’s love for us?

Is it possible that God’s purpose for each and every one of us is, to have this Trinitarian relationship with each other?

blessings

Eric
 
AtHisFeet said:
Help please! My hubby and I are both Catholics, and we currently have staying with us some dear friends, who love the Lord very much, but are ‘Bible-believing’ Christians.

I was expecting the usual questions regarding Mary, the Mass, etc. to surface at some stage, but their main point for discussion at present (and it’s wonderful, friendly discussions) is the Trinity. They do not believe in the Trinity, and believe it be ‘unbiblical’.

I have a few verses: John 10:30, 1 John 5:7, and the use of the word ‘us’ in Genesis 1:26 - and, of course, the whole ‘Baptise them in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit’ - any others?

Can anyone help, point me in the direction of a good article we can then discuss, etc.?

Or offer any further verses and such that support the doctrine of the Trinity?

It’s going to be a fun week! It’s all friendly and chatty right now - please pray we can discuss these things, and STAY friends! I’m cautious, I’ve lost too many dear friends already…

Thankyou!
Click to expand...
Do they believe that Jesus is God?

If not, what is their explanation of how we are saved by Jesus?

If so, how do they explain that God the Father and the Holy Spirit are Persons of God that Jesus prays to? (ie: was He praying to Himself, and if so, for what reason?) Also, it makes nonsense of Jesus telling the Apostles that He must leave, in order to make way for the Holy Spirit - if they are the same Person, then why not just have Him stay?
 
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