The Trinity

[Aaron26]

I read in Catholic Answers on this site within the library about the Trinity at the top of the page about the second paragraph it read,

“that the Father, the Son, and the Spirit are three divine persons who are one divine being (God).”

My friends please take into consideration,

1 Cor. 8: 5,6 " For though there be that are call gods, whether in heaven or in earth, as there be gods many, and lords many, But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him." ( This presents the Father as the “one God” of Christians and as being in a class distinct from Jesus Christ.)

also it reads,

Matt.12:31,32 “Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.” ( If the Holy Spirit were a person and were God, this text would flatly contradict the trinity doctrine, because it would mean that in some way the Holy Spirit was greater than the son. Instead, what Jesus says shows that the father, to whom the “Spirit” belonged, is greater than Jesus, the Son of man.)

also in 1 Cor 11:3
Reads " But I will have you know, that the head of ever man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God." (Clearly, then, Christ is not God, and God is of superior rank to Christ. It should be noted that this was written about 55 C.E. some 22 years after Jesus returned to heaven. So the truth here stated applies to the relationship between God and Christ in heaven.)

 

[utunumsint]

1 Cor. 8: 5,6 " For though there be that are call gods, whether in heaven or in earth, as there be gods many, and lords many, But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him." ( This presents the Father as the “one God” of Christians and as being in a class distinct from Jesus Christ.)

This is from the Navara Study Bible.

Both the Father and the Sonare God and Lord: "Just as St. Paul does not take from the Father the rank of Lord, when he says that the Son is the only Lord, so he is not denying the Son the rank of God, when he says that the Father is the one and only God. In fact thetitle “Lord” is usedwith reference to God; so, calling Jesus Christ “Lord” is the same as calling him “God”; besides, what the Apostles here says of the Father, he attributes elsewhere to the Son; and vice versa (cf., e.g., Rom 11:36, Eph 4:5-6; Col 16-17; Heb 2:10). Creation is something that is done by all three divine persons of the Blessed Trinity, and the Blessed Trinity is also the end or goal of all created things. Although St. Paul does not mention the Holy Spirit in this passage, he does speak of him elsewhere in the letter (cf. 2:10; :19-20)

Ut

 

[utunumsint]

also in 1 Cor 11:3
Reads " But I will have you know, that the head of ever man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God." (Clearly, then, Christ is not God, and God is of superior rank to Christ. It should be noted that this was written about 55 C.E. some 22 years after Jesus returned to heaven. So the truth here stated applies to the relationship between God and Christ in heaven.)

As Catholics, we believe that Christ has a human nature (True man) and a divine nature (True God). The union between the two is in his person, the second person of the Holy Trinity. In his human nature, the head of Christ is God. In his divine nature, he is God.

Ut.

 

[utunumsint]

Matt.12:31,32 “Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.” ( If the Holy Spirit were a person and were God, this text would flatly contradict the trinity doctrine, because it would mean that in some way the Holy Spirit was greater than the son. Instead, what Jesus says shows that the father, to whom the “Spirit” belonged, is greater than Jesus, the Son of man.)

You should do some more research on the Catholic understanding of the Trinity. There are lots of resources on this web page. Another source that I highly recommend is Theology and Sanity by Frank Sheed.

God bless, and thanks for posting.

Ut

 

[VociMike]

Aaron26, why should anybody accept your analysis over the analysis of the entire Christian Church descended from Christ and the Apostles.

When you “find something” in the bible that goes against everything the Christian Church has taught since the beginning, that alone should give you pause.

 

[Athanasiy]

Some Baptist theologists , even such as John MacArthur , have a problems with this understanding too.
We read in the John 1:14 and the word became flesh.
It means as a Word having its identity as the Word from all eternity.
If the Son was not eternally begotten by the Father then neither did the Spirit eternally proceed from the Father through the Son.
And the father can not be called the father without the son. So its abolishes the fatherhood too.
So it is more logical to believe in the Trinitarian faith as defined by the First Council of Nicaea (A.D. 325).

 

[briang72]

Lets look at the whole story here, not just 2 verses.

Matthew 12: 22-35
Then they brought to him a demoniac who was blind and mute. He cured the mute person so that he could speak and see.

All the crowd was astounded, and said, “Could this perhaps be the Son of David?”

---

But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, “This man drives out demons only by the power of Beelzebul, the prince of demons.” ***

But he knew what they were thinking and said to them, "Every kingdom divided against itself will be laid waste, and no town or house divided against itself will stand.

And if Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself; how, then, will his kingdom stand?

And if I drive out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your own people drive them out? Therefore they will be your judges.

***But if it is by the Spirit of God that I drive out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. ***

How can anyone enter a strong man’s house and steal his property, unless he first ties up the strong man? Then he can plunder his house.

Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters.

***Therefore, I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.

And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come. ***

"Either declare the tree good and its fruit is good, or declare the tree rotten and its fruit is rotten, for a tree is known by its fruit.

You brood of vipers, how can you say good things when you are evil? For from the fullness of the heart the mouth speaks.

A good person brings forth good out of a store of goodness, but an evil person brings forth evil out of a store of evil.

The New American Bible includes this footnote regarding Matthew 12:31

Blasphemy against the Spirit: the sin of attributing to Satan (Matthew 12:24) what is the work of the Spirit of God (Matthew 12:28).

Speaking against the Son of Man is clearly not the same as attributing the work of God to Satan. Blasphemy is one step further beyond speaking against the Son of Man, and that being speaking against God and attributing His good works to Satan.

 

[A_Pac]

When you “find something” in the bible that goes against everything the Christian Church has taught since the beginning, that alone should give you pause.

‘Please check the brain at the door and take a number. There will be no thinking here…’

 

[VociMike]

‘Please check the brain at the door and take a number. There will be no thinking here…’

Another snotty comment, oh joy.

Is the faith really primarily an intellectual exercise? The ones with the biggest brains get it right? Get your ThD or don’t even bother to show up?

Or is the faith something handed down from the Apostles, elaborated by the Early Fathers, all with divine guidance and protection to keep it from being corrupted?

I repeat, when somebody jumps up and says “hey, I found something in the bible that goes against what 2000 years of Christian thought says!”, I suggest that they ponder the amazing hubriss involved in such a claim.

 

[I_Leatherman]

‘Please check the brain at the door and take a number. There will be no thinking here…’

You mean in there, don’t you.:doh2:

 

[A_Pac]

(Edited By Moderator) Is the faith really primarily an intellectual exercise? The ones with the biggest brains get it right? Get your ThD or don’t even bother to show up?

Did I say it was? Didn’t think so…but apologetics IS.

Or is the faith something handed down from the Apostles, elaborated by the Early Fathers, all with divine guidance and protection to keep it from being corrupted?

Neiter. I don’t accept apostate “early Fathers,” regardless of there intentions.

I repeat, when somebody jumps up and says “hey, I found something in the bible that goes against what 2000 years of Christian thought says!”, I suggest that they ponder the amazing hubriss involved in such a claim.

What? Like when Jesus said that Baptism by water was NECESSARY to go to heaven, and “Christianity” thinks he was actually lying? The rest of Christianity can take such a hellish notion home. I confound them all.

A Pac

 

[utunumsint]

Neiter. I don’t accept apostate “early Fathers,” regardless of there intentions.

I’m curious: do you consider all church fathers as apostate? What church fathers have you read (I’m not trying to be offensive here)?

Thanks,
Ut

 

[Aaron26]

I hope I haven’t offended anyone, I was just trying to reason from the scriptures. I don’t want to cause any arguments, thats the last thing I want.

 

[Bishopite]

I read in Catholic Answers on this site within the library about the Trinity at the top of the page about the second paragraph it read,

“that the Father, the Son, and the Spirit are three divine persons who are one divine being (God).”

 

[utunumsint]

I hope I haven’t offended anyone, I was just trying to reason from the scriptures. I don’t want to cause any arguments, thats the last thing I want.

No worries Aaron26. You haven’t offended anyone. But on this topic, you’ll get a lot of people steamed up since it is the foundational doctine for most Christians (except for Jehovah’s Witnessess, Mormons and a few smaller sects).

God bless.
Ut

 

[Bishopite]

I hope I haven’t offended anyone, I was just trying to reason from the scriptures. I don’t want to cause any arguments, thats the last thing I want.

We aren’t offended, we just want to point out your errors. But you need to know that your original statement came off as a direct challenge to prove that Jesus isn’t God, yet it can’t ever work because scripture proves it and Christian history attests also to Jesus’ divinity. Christian orthodoxy has always taught that Jesus is God and you need to see this truth; you need to change your heterodoxy not us!

 

[thistle]

Did I say it was? Didn’t think so…but apologetics IS.
Neiter. **I don’t accept apostate “early Fathers,” regardless of there intentions **What? Like when Jesus said that Baptism by water was NECESSARY to go to heaven, and “Christianity” thinks he was actually lying? The rest of Christianity can take such a hellish notion home. I confound them all.

A Pac

We are still waiting for you to come back and tell us which early Church Fathers you consider apostate and why.You need to provide us with something to back up your comments rather than making a vague unsupported statement. Anyone can do that!!

 

[Aaron26]

Could someone please help me to understand the scripture in
John 5:37 “And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.”

 

[utunumsint]

Could someone please help me to understand the scripture in
John 5:37 “And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.”

The Father sent the son

This doesn’t mean that there are two Gods, but only reflects the different persons in the Trinity. Remember, in Catholic Theology, there are three Persons, and one Nature. The three Persons are truly distinct from one another, but they all share the same nature.

Nature is what you are.
Person is **who **you are.

Also, remember the context of this passage. Jesus is countering the Jewish argument that a person cannot witness to their own cause.

Deut 19:15 One witness alone shall not take the stand against a man in regard to any crime or any offense of which he may be guilty; a judicial fact shall be established only on the testimony of two or three witnesses.

In this context, he produces four witnesses: John the Baptist, Scripture, his own miracles, and the Father who sent him.

On a side note, there are lots of scriptures that show the distinction between the persons of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, just like there are lots of scriptures that show the unity in nature of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. There are also scriptures that witness to the differences between the human and divine natures in Christ. So when we as Catholics read the scriptures and the words of Jesus, we ask ourselves, is he speaking according to his human nature, or his divine natures. (Remember, Jesus the man is united to the divine nature of God through the second **Person ** of the Trinity. The two natures are not mixed together, or confused with one another).

Hope this helps,
Ut