The Trisagion?

[Zekariya]

Oh. If I remember correctly, the Melkite parish by me sings it as a dialogue as well: the left side with the deacon and the right side with the priest. Is this an anomalous method or do Melkites/Antiochians diverge from other Byzantine traditions on this?

I don’t know. The Antiochian parish that I converted in did not sing it as a dialogue and neither does the Melkite parish that I am a member of.

 

[Nine_Two]

Could it be local variants? I recall some sort of alternation, but whether it was “Agios O Theos” from the clergy with the congregation continuing, or alternating the whole thing, I just don’t remember.

I have heard it the odd time (once or twice) as a dialogue. There may be different ways of doing it, but the norm, in my experience anyway, when it is sung as normal in the middle of the Divine Liturgy, is all together.

 

[MorEphrem]

I have heard it the odd time (once or twice) as a dialogue. There may be different ways of doing it, but the norm, in my experience anyway, when it is sung as normal in the middle of the Divine Liturgy, is all together.

Ah, ok. Thanks for the clarification [you too Zekariya] .

 

[5Loaves]

This is Trisagion in church-slavonic used in Croatian Byzantine Catholic church:
Svjatij Bože, svjatij krjepkij, svjatij besmertnij, pomiluj nas!

We used to very often sing, tho less often recently:
Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal, have mercy on us!
Svjatij Bože, svjatij krjepkij, svjatij besmertnij, pomiluj nas!
Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal, have mercy on us!

On the rare times in a Greek Orthodox setting where I have heard it sung in English it was sung Holy God, Holy Strong, Holy Immortal, have mercy on us. Most of the time I’ve heard it either only in Greek Agios o Theos, Agios ischyros, Agios athanatos, eleison imas, or Greek/English/Greek, similar to the way my parish mixes English and Church Slavonic.

Have also heard it sung: Holy God, Holy and Mighty, Holy and Immortal, have mercy on us.

 

[ealfred]

It is sung in The Syriac Catholic Church with the same text used by the Maronite Church. We sing it in Good Friday in the Latin Church.

 

[SyroMalankara]

The Syro-Malankara Trisagion is the same as the Syriac Orthodox and Malankara Orthodox:
youtu.be/siB8UkHdO7w

The formerly controversial phrase “‘Crucified for us’, have mercy upon” is included.

Qadeeshat Aloho
Qadeeshat hayelthono
Qadeeshat lo moyutho
Dest lebt halofyn, etraham alain!

Holy Are You, O God
Holy Are You, the Mighty
Holy Are You, Immortal
Crucified for us, Have Mercy Upon Us!

 

[MorEphrem]

The formerly controversial phrase “‘Crucified for us’, have mercy upon” is included.

Qadeeshat Aloho
Qadeeshat hayelthono
Qadeeshat lo moyutho
Dest lebt halofyn, etraham alain!

Heretics! The Trinity was not crucified .

 

[ealfred]

Heretics! The Trinity was not crucified .

I know it as

Qadeeshat Aloho
Qadeeshat hayelthono
Qadeeshat lo moyutho
etraham alain!

or at least that how it is in the Syriac Catholic Church and the Maronite Church.

 

[5Loaves]

The Syro-Malankara Trisagion is the same as the Syriac Orthodox and Malankara Orthodox:
youtu.be/siB8UkHdO7w

The formerly controversial phrase “‘Crucified for us’, have mercy upon” is included

In his detailed reflections on the Divine Liturgy Fr Tom Hopko forcused on the Trisagion during 6 sessions. In the second session he talks about this, in case anyone is interested in reading or hearing Fr Tom on it.

 

[SyroMalankara]

I appreciate Rev. Fr. Tom Hopko very much, he is an impressive scholar and eminent theologian. However, he is mistaken - as most Byzantines are - on the origins of the prayer:
Only-begotten Son and immortal Word of God, who for our salvation didst will to be incarnate of the holy Theotokos and ever-Virgin Mary, who without change became man and was crucified, who art one of the Holy Trinity, glorified with the Father and the Holy Spirit, O Christ our God, trampling down death by death: save us.

This prayer in Byzantine Tradition is attributed to Justianian, but in OO history is addressed to St. Severus of Antioch

Here’s the Malankara Orthodox translation:

By Thy Mothers Earnest Prayers
By Thy Saints Entreaties:
I adore Thee, Lord and king,
Sole begotten, heavenly One,
Word and Fatherís Son
Though Immortal Thou dost be -
In Thy nature true,
Thou descendedst by Thy grace,
Bringing life salvation free -
For our fallen human race;
Thou incarnate wast of her,
Holy Virgin blest -
Mary, glorious, chaste and pure,
Mother of our God.
Man becoming nor with change,
Thou wast crucified for us,
Christ, who art our Lord and God;
Thou didst trample death by death,
Ending this our death.
Thou art One of Persons three,
Holy Trinity,
Worshipped equal praised the same,
With the Father, and the Holy Ghost,
Have Thou mercy on us all.

The Malankara Catholic translation (essentially the same): youtu.be/VKFqUveJM88?t=9m42s

Here’s Rev. Fr. Peter of the British Orthodox Church (OO) on OCnet:

The Trisagion is documented in Syria a hundred years at least before Chalcedon and it was always considered a Christological hymn. The Chalcedonian tradition that it was first heard at Chalcedon cannot be true because there are documents referring to it long before.

It was in fact only in Constantinople that it was given a Trinitarian direction.

Peter the Fuller objected to the addition … Christ the King, who wast crucified for us … on properly Christological grounds. Calandion, who was a strict Chalcedonian, was willing to speak of Christ being crucified, but was not willing to speak of the Word of God being crucified. Therefore he referred the crucifixion only to Christ, the name of the man, or the man assumed by the Word, and not to the Word Himself. This is why Peter the Fuller rejected it - quite properly too.

Of course the later Chalcedonian narrative insists that the Trisagion is only ever Trinitarian. History shows this claim to be manifestly false. And it is also rather duplicitous of John of Damascus, who must have know that the Syrians used the Trisagion in a Christological sense, to assert that they were making the Trinity the subject of the incarnation.

Even ancient scholars in Rome accepted that the Trisagion was Christological and that the additions were entirely correct when used Christologically. And even the Maronites used the Trisagion in a Christological sense. It was only Constantinople which used it in a Trinitarian sense.

Making the Trisagion a Trinitarian hymn is solely the work of the Chalcedonian Imperial might being able to assert what is true, even if it is not. Had it not been for such an exercise of force then it would surely have been possible for all sides to see that the Trisagion could be used correctly in both ways.

What is absolutely clear from explicit documentary evidence is that the non-Chalcedonians HAVE NOT changed the Trisagion. They use it as it was first created and used, and as they have always used it.

Interesting history:

Canon 81 of Trullo:

Whereas we have heard that in some places in the hymn Trisagion there is added after “Holy and Immortal,” “Who was crucified for us, have mercy upon us,” and since this as being alien to piety was by the ancient and holy Fathers cast out of the hymn, as also the violent heretics who inserted these new words were cast out of the Church; we also, confirming the things which were formerly piously established by our holy Fathers, anathematize those who after this present decree allow in church this or any other addition to the most sacred hymn; but if indeed he who has transgressed is of the sacerdotal order, we command that he be deprived of his priestly dignity, but if he be a layman or monk let him be cut off.

 

[Lomoyooto]

In the Maronite Church it is sung in Syriac (qadeeshat) and as has been quite rightly pointed out it is not sung in a dialogue (many of us grew up with it as a dialouge) although it seems from some other posters neither is being done so in practice by some of the other eastern churches…

In English it is

You are holy, O God
You are holy, Strong One
You are holy, O Immortal One

Have Mercy on us.

Rafqa, The Trisagion has only been in its current form since the release of the 2005 missal. The proper tradition in the Maronite church through time and memorial was:

Priest:
Holy art Thou, O God Qadeshat Aloho
Holy art Thou, O Strong One Qadeshat Hayeltono
Holy art Thou, O Immortal One Qadeshat Lomoyooto

Congregation:
Have mercy on us! Itraham 'alain

This dialogue along with a number of other key point in our liturgy (e.g. the Epiclesis) have been purposely changed to downplay the role of the priest.

Heretics! The Trinity was not crucified .

Also MorEphrem according to Archadale King in his book The Rites of Eastern Christendom Vol. 1 p.274

The Maronites, in common with the other Syrians, at one time had two methods of reciting the trisagion, a) a hymn to the Holy Trinity and b) a hymn to our Lord. This twofold use existed in the patriarchate of Antioch in the time of patriarch Ephrem of Amida (529-545)

 

[malphono]

Rafqa, The Trisagion has only been in its current form since the release of the 2005 missal. The proper tradition in the Maronite church through time and memorial was:

Priest:
Holy art Thou, O God Qadeshat Aloho
Holy art Thou, O Strong One Qadeshat Hayeltono
Holy art Thou, O Immortal One Qadeshat Lomoyooto

Congregation:
Have mercy on us! Itraham 'alain

This dialogue along with a number of other key point in our liturgy (e.g. the Epiclesis) have been purposely changed to downplay the role of the priest.

That’s quite right. And both are yet more of the on-going and seemingly never-ending Novus Ordo-inspired neo latinizations that are choking the life out of us.

Also MorEphrem according to Archadale King in his book The Rites of Eastern Christendom Vol. 1 p.274

Yes, the Trisagion can be read two ways: Trinitarian or Christological. I believe it was Peter the Fuller who added the clearly Christological “Who was crucified for us” and which the SOC maintains. But according to the East Syriac tradition, which we share to a degree, it is clearly Trinitarian. I see nothing inherently wrong with the Christological interpretation, but it’s certainly not part of our Maronite patrimony.

 

[Denho]

Yes, the Trisagion can be read two ways: Trinitarian or Christological. I believe it was Peter the Fuller who added the clearly Christological “Who was crucified for us” and which the SOC maintains.

I’ll see if I can find it but I’ve read in a few places that there is evidence that the West Syriacs used the Christological verse in the Trisagion for a while before Peter the Fuller defended/added it to the Trisagion.

 

[MorEphrem]

Also MorEphrem according to Archadale King in his book The Rites of Eastern Christendom Vol. 1 p.274

Shlomo, Lomoyooto. Welcome to the forum, always pleasant to meet another Maronite .

In regards to my comment on “crucifying the Trinity,” as you will probably eventually infer from my posts, I was being facetious.

 

[Lomoyooto]

In regards to my comment on “crucifying the Trinity,” as you will probably eventually infer from my posts, I was being facetious.

Shlomo a’mekh.

I gathered as such, but thought it might be worthwhile adding the quote for everyone else.

 

[malphono]

Shlomo a’mekh.

Shouldn’t that be “shlomo 'amokh” …?

In any case, m-aykho at, oH?

 

[Rafkqa]

Rafqa, The Trisagion has only been in its current form since the release of the 2005 missal. The proper tradition in the Maronite church through time and memorial was:

Priest:
Holy art Thou, O God Qadeshat Aloho
Holy art Thou, O Strong One Qadeshat Hayeltono
Holy art Thou, O Immortal One Qadeshat Lomoyooto

Congregation:
Have mercy on us! Itraham 'alain

This dialogue along with a number of other key point in our liturgy (e.g. the Epiclesis) have been purposely changed to downplay the role of the priest.

Also MorEphrem according to Archadale King in his book The Rites of Eastern Christendom Vol. 1 p.274

Lomoyooto, the question at the beginning of the thread was "Do all Eastern Catholic Churches have a form of Trisagion sung or said during the Liturgy? The Trisagion of the Syro Malabar Church is ancient and is sung during the Syriac Holy Qurbana. "

What I quoted was an answer to that question, I wrote what the Trisagion is in the Maronite Church right now, not what I might perceive in my opinion to be the proper tradition…

 

[Lomoyooto]

Lomoyooto, the question at the beginning of the thread was "Do all Eastern Catholic Churches have a form of Trisagion sung or said during the Liturgy? The Trisagion of the Syro Malabar Church is ancient and is sung during the Syriac Holy Qurbana. "

What I quoted was an answer to that question, I wrote what the Trisagion is in the Maronite Church right now, not what I might perceive in my opinion to be the proper tradition…

Rafqa I only sort to correct your observation that some of the congregation say the trisagon in dialogue, to say that it was always a dialogue and was only changed in 2005

 

[Lomoyooto]

Shouldn’t that be “shlomo 'amokh” …?

In any case, m-aykho at, oH?

My apologies I wrote it as I was rushing out to work in the morning and didn’t realize till I left the house.

 

[shlomo3amrooh]

Shlomo lockon.

In the SCC I think the Qadishat Aloho is supposed to be done like this:

Priest: Qadishat Aloho (Holy art thou Oh God)

Priest, Deacons(all ranks): Qadishat 7ayelthono (Holy Art thou oh Strong one), Qadishat Lomoyotho (Holy Art thou One that does not die)

Priest, Deacons(all ranks) and congregation: Itra7am 3alein (Have Mercy on us).

We removed the Peter of Antioch clause which our Orthodox counterparts say “Who was crucified for us”. "disliba7 luphayn "

I would like to add also that the East Syrian Rite, has a very beautiful hymn that is a combination of the Slotho d’Moryo and the Qadishat Aloho

“Avun dba-shmayya nithqaddash shmakh, tethe malkuthakh, qaddysh, qaddysh, qaddysh-at, Avun dba-shmayya. Damlen shmayya w-ar’a rabbuth shu7akh, 3yre w-nasha qa’en lakh: qaddysh, qaddysh, qaddysh-at.”

“Our Father who art in Heaven, hallowed be your Name. Your kingdom come. Holy, holy, you are holy. Our Father in Heaven: heaven and earth are full of the greatness of your glory; angels and men cry out to you: holy, holy, you are holy”