The true Christ's church

[Tecnologgamer]

Hello, I’m studying about the evidences on the Sacred Scripture that Christ founded a church on Saint Peter. I watched an online class made by catholics how use the Sacred Scripture to reargue the protestants.

I read each chapter of each versicles quoted (so that I can understand the contest and not mispresent). I’m looking for feedback and better compreension on what I study and other references to fortify my argues.

The most obvious versicles start in Matheus chapter 16 where Jesus said “On this stone I will construct my church” (I’m translating to brazilian portuguese to english directly, I dunno how is in English). So Jesus creates a church where Saint Peter is the rock. This church is not only a spiritual communion on the same faith, but though an entity material with hierarchy and order. This idea is reforced when Jesus said if your bother doesn’t listen to you, may listen the church or else not happen too so let him be expelled. Also, Jesus gives authority not only for Peter this time, but for the rest of apostles.

Then in the end of book of John (last chapter) where the apostles go to fish, Jesus appears to Peter and ask him three times if Peter loves Him and each time Peter response Jesus said to take care of my sheeps and lambs (Why Jesus talk sheeps and lambs, what is mean?) where Jesus is giving the order only for Saint Peter and that why the catholic church have the Order Sacrament. A curious thing about this chapter is because is said that Peter is naked, this have some mean or is he was literally bared? And Jesus also said about the disciples which He most love that he will not die until He return.

I want to know that because I hear from a protestant that this those passagens where Jesus tell about this mean that everyone who dies is just resting and that Heaven and Hell has a sign on the entrancy written “Vacancy” because will go to Heaven and Hell when Jesus comeback again.

On chapter 1 to 3 at Ephesis’s book Paul tell about the salvation grace, I just want to highlight chapter 2 versicles 8 where supposed Paul confirm the Sola Fide and no deeds are worthing to save our souls and the end of chapter 3 versicles 21 where Paul allege to give glory of God on Jesus in His Church meaning that there is a Church founded by Jesus Crist and in Timothy chapter 3 explicits this more when is talking about the deacons.

There is other parts that I could quote, but I thing this is enough to get started. I"m also is looking for historical fonts of the age, I’m reading H.Betterson book about the documents of christian churches where afirm that the term “Catholic” is started to get used by the apostles to differentiate from the herectis that was been showing in Roman age.

 

[Vico]

…

John 10

11 I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. 12 He who is a hireling and not a shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees; and the wolf snatches them and scatters them. 13 He flees because he is a hireling and cares nothing for the sheep. 14 I am the good shepherd; I know my own and my own know me, 15 as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep.

 

[Shakuhachi]

He founded His Church on love. Where there is love there is God.

 

[Dan_Defender]

Besides focusing on the Bible, consider the early Church. The gospels were not written for decades and yet the Church grew and thrived. The Church was there before any New Testament writings.

 

[JGD]

Then in the end of book of John (last chapter) where the apostles go to fish, Jesus appears to Peter and ask him three times if Peter loves Him and each time Peter response Jesus said to take care of my sheeps and lambs (Why Jesus talk sheeps and lambs, what is mean?) where Jesus is giving the order only for Saint Peter and that why the catholic church have the Order Sacrament.

As the quote in Vico’s post above shows, Jesus had called Himself the good shepherd of the sheep. John 21 takes place after Jesus has died and risen, and shortly before He will ascend to heaven and no longer be visibly/physically present to shepherd His “flock” (His flock is the other apostles and all who would believe and become members of His Church.)
When Jesus tells Peter to “tend my sheep” (and lambs), He is appointing Peter to stand in His/Jesus’ place here on earth - to be shepherd to those who become members of His Church.

It’s too late here for me to address any of your other questions right now.

 

[Tecnologgamer]

I dislike use this method, either. However the protestant only accept it like argue, if use historically argue only, they just response “You stay with the history and I with the Bible”, but if I can use the Bible and the early Church so I can be more strong on it.

 

[JGD]

Then in the end of book of John (last chapter) where the apostles go to fish, Jesus appears to Peter and ask him three times if Peter loves Him and each time Peter response Jesus said to take care of my sheeps and lambs (Why Jesus talk sheeps and lambs, what is mean?) where Jesus is giving the order only for Saint Peter and that why the catholic church have the Order Sacrament.

Re the bolded part: Jesus isn’t establishing the “Sacrament” of Holy Orders in this event with Peter. (Jesus had already established that Sacrament at the Last Supper with the apostles who were present.) Jesus here is confirming to Peter that even after Peter’s denials, it is still Jesus’ will for Peter to be head of His Church, a visible human shepherd through which Our Lord will continue to shepherd His flock.

And Jesus also said about the disciples which He most love that he will not die until He return.

Jesus doesn’t say “it is my will”, He says " IF it is my will…"
Jesus is telling Peter not to concern himself ("what is it to you…) with the timing and manner of John’s death - that is for God/Jesus to know.

Some thoughts to ponder. Jesus knows all our thoughts and our motivations. Jesus had just told Peter how he would die (a martyr’s death, a crucifixion). Right after being told of that, Peter asks about John’s death. Why? What prompted him to be concerned about what would happen to “the apostle Jesus loved”? We, of course don’t know - but Jesus did and that probably had something to do with the particular answer He gave Peter.

I want to know that because I hear from a protestant that this those passagens where Jesus tell about this mean that everyone who dies is just resting and that Heaven and Hell has a sign on the entrancy written “Vacancy” because will go to Heaven and Hell when Jesus comeback again.

Those words in John 21 say nothing about any “soul sleep”. What Jesus says is "If it is my will that he remain until I come, … “Remain” would mean to continue living on earth - not go to some unidentified state or place of “resting”. Obviously Jesus did not will for John to remain until His final coming.

 

[JGD]

On chapter 1 to 3 at Ephesis’s book Paul tell about the salvation grace, I just want to highlight chapter 2 versicles 8 where supposed Paul confirm the Sola Fide and no deeds are worthing to save our souls and the end of chapter 3 versicles 21 where Paul allege to give glory of God on Jesus in His Church meaning that there is a Church founded by Jesus Crist and in Timothy chapter 3 explicits this more when is talking about the deacons.

In talking with non-Catholics about saving grace, it’s important to know that they don’t use the same terminology and meaning that Catholics do. We refer to saving grace as habitual/Sanctifying grace. It is a participation in the divine life/nature which we receive when we are baptized. This gift of grace must be present in us when we die if we are to be saved.
Here are just a few Scripture passages that may help:
2 Peter 1:4
1 John 3:9
1 Corinthians 6:11
Ephesians 2:5
Ephesians 4:24
John 3:3-7
Titus 3:5

This free gift received in Baptism regenerates our souls - gives new supernatural life to our souls which were spiritually “dead” in the original sin passed on to us from Adam. We do nothing to merit this great gift (obviously since newborn babies are baptized and receive it), however we can lose it if we commit mortal sin and die unrepentant.

In addition to habitual/sanctifying/saving grace which truly transforms our soul, the Church also teaches about “actual graces” - temporary helps which God gives us to perform particular tasks.

I think it’s very important to read the whole Catechism section on Grace and Justification and make sure one has a clear understanding of Catholic teaching Grace & Justification. (Paragraphs #1987 thru #2029. Read especially the section on “Grace”.
It might also be good idea to read the sections on the Sacraments of Initiation - Baptism, Confirmation and the Eucharist.

 

[Tecnologgamer]

Thank you for your patience, I forget that many terminologies are disfigureds from original meaning. I will look for that so.

Also, non-Catholics argue with the purpose to deny the Church Sacraments that like there is not expliciment written how to do in the Bible (like Order) so is invalid, is something create by the men.

 

[JGD]

Are you wanting some Scriptural evidence for the sacrament of Holy Orders?

 

[Tecnologgamer]

If you kindly show to me I would be so grateful. I’m focus more about the early Church and as far I can go about more I’m conviced even myself that Catholic Church is the Our Lord’s Church.

 

[Dan_Defender]

they just response “You stay with the history and I with the Bible”

Then tell them: just as the Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath, the Bible was made for the Church and not the Church for the Bible.

 

[JGD]

Holy Orders is a New Testament Sacrament in which the mission entrusted to the apostles is handed on to others. We know from Acts 1:20-26 that the apostles knew that the role of the apostles was not to end with their deaths, but was to be continued in the Church.

Acts 6:20-26 … And: 'May another take his office.'Therefore, it is necessary that one of the men who accompanied us the whole time the Lord Jesus came and went among us,
beginning from the baptism of John until the day on which he was taken up from us, become with us a witness to his resurrection. So they proposed two, Joseph called Barsabbas, who was also known as Justus, and Matthias.Then they prayed, “You, Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which one of these two you have chosen to take the place in this apostolic ministry from which Judas turned away to go to his own place.”
Then they gave lots to them, and the lot fell upon Matthias, and he was counted with the eleven apostles.

As the Church spread it was necessary to appoint more to the priesthood to minister to all the new Churches. Three levels of ordination evolved: bishops, priests and deacons. The Catechism describes the rite of ordination as follows:

CCC 1573 The essential rite of the sacrament of Holy Orders for all three degrees consists in the bishop’s imposition of hands on the head of the ordinand and in the bishop’s specific consecratory prayer asking God for the outpouring of the Holy Spirit and his gifts proper to the ministry to which the candidate is being ordained. The following are Scripture passages that speak of this early sacramental rite.

Acts 6:6 They presented these men to the apostles who prayed and laid hands on them.
Acts 14:23 They appointed presbyters for them in each church and, with prayer and fasting, commended them to the Lord in whom they had put their faith.
1 Timothy 4:14 Do not neglect the gift you have, which was conferred on you through the prophetic word with the imposition of hands of the presbyterate.
1 Timothy 5:22 Do not lay hands too readily on anyone, and do not share in another’s sins. Keep yourself pure.
2 Timothy 1:6 For this reason, I remind you to stir into flame the gift of God that you have through the imposition of my hands.

24

 

[Tecnologgamer]

Thank you!

 

[Tecnologgamer]

Readings those versicles it’s more cleary that there is Order between the apostles and those are chosen, it’s not like today where I buy a bible and I call myself a shepard. However how can I explain the ritual of sacrament? Because they think it’s created a ceremony to order someone to the Church they think “Jesus not made this”.

 

[Genesis315]

Readings those versicles it’s more cleary that there is Order between the apostles and those are chosen, it’s not like today where I buy a bible and I call myself a shepard. However how can I explain the ritual of sacrament? Because they think it’s created a ceremony to order someone to the Church they think “Jesus not made this”.

The laying on of hands described in those verses is the part that came from Jesus–it is the substance of the sacrament even today. The Church adds prayers, etc. to ask God for graces and blessings, to praise and thank Him, and for the veneration and understanding of the sacrament. These are good things to pray for, no?

There’s nothing wrong with a formal rite either. As St. Paul says, “But let all things be done decently, and according to order.” (1 Cor. 14:40)

 

[JGD]

… However how can I explain the ritual of sacrament? Because they think it’s created a ceremony to order someone to the Church they think “Jesus not made this”.

First, a couple of definitions:

1. Briefly, a sacrament is a visible rite/sign in which an invisible grace of “divine life” is dispensed to us. CCC 1131)
2. The RITUAL of the sacrament of Holy Orders “confers a gift of the Holy Spirit that permits the exercise of a "sacred power”** … The laying on of hands by the bishop, with the consecratory prayer, constitutes the visible sign of this ordination. [CCC 1538]

I am going to assume that the protestants you converse with recognize that Jesus chose the 12 apostles to have a special role – separate from the other disciples and from the 70 others who were also appointed by Him to be of service. (Luke 6:12-16; Luke 10)

As far as the sacrament of Holy Orders, at the Last Supper Jesus conferred upon His 12 apostles the “sacred power” to confect the Sacrament of the Eucharist – “Do this in memory of Me.”.
After His death and resurrection, Jesus conferred upon the 12 the “sacred power” to forgive sins - the Sacrament of Confession. John 20: 21-23 Forgiveness of sin is also part of the Sacrament of the Anointing of the Sick.

As far as the particular ceremony/s used in the rites of the 7 Sacraments, it is important to remember the establishment/birth of the New Covenant “Church” was not complete until AFTER Our Lord’s death, resurrection, ascension and gift of the Holy Spirit on Pentecost. In His teaching and actions Jesus prepared and taught them about the various “sacraments”, but He didn’t define and describe the particular rituals. Neither did He instruct the apostles to begin carrying them out as they travelled with Him in His ministry. He and the apostles were still members of the Jewish faith and the ceremonies they practiced were those of the Old Covenant. They were to wait for the coming of the Holy Spirit for their New Covenant ministry to begin. (Acts 1:1-5)

What Jesus did do was establish a hierarchy for His Church; He gave them the power to establish it’s practices and legislation. “Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven; …” (Mt. 16:19 and 18:18)

Thus, we begin to find a little more about the particular rites in the Scripture writings that come after the Gospels (after Our Lord’s death & resurrection) - in Acts, in the Epistles.
Written records did not end with those contained in Scripture but continued. The writings of those early Church Fathers (Clement of Rome, Ignatius of Antioch, Polycarp, Papias, Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, …) contain much information about the rites and practices of the Catholic Church.

 

[Lapc]

I am going to assume that the protestants you converse with recognize that Jesus chose the 12 apostles to have a special role – separate from the other disciples and from the 70 others who were also appointed by Him to be of service.

I wonder why Saint Paul didn’t see it this way.?
In Ephesians 4:11 the 5 fold ministry.

 

[adf417]

JGD:

I am going to assume that the protestants you converse with recognize that Jesus chose the 12 apostles to have a special role – separate from the other disciples and from the 70 others who were also appointed by Him to be of service.

I wonder why Saint Paul didn’t see it this way.?
In Ephesians 4:11 the 5 fold ministry.

Hi Lapc and welcome!

Paul didnt see it that way because he was talking about a different ministry. The reason Joseph called Barsabbas was NOT elected and sent in Acts 1:23.

Peace!!!

 

[JGD]

JGD:

I am going to assume that the protestants you converse with recognize that Jesus chose the 12 apostles to have a special role – separate from the other disciples and from the 70 others who were also appointed by Him to be of service.

I wonder why Saint Paul didn’t see it this way.?
In Ephesians 4:11 the 5 fold ministry.

The Catholic Church recognizes different levels within the ordained hierarchy - bishops, priests, and deacons. The apostles were the first bishops; presbyters the first priests; deacons the first deacons. Within each of those levels, the various people could have been graced with their own special gifts. Eg. the gift of teacher could be given to certain bishops, priests, and deacons. The same with the other talents that St. Paul mentions in Ephesians 4:11