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grannymh
Guest
From list in post 69
God alone created the world. (De Fide)
We know that the Hebrew Nation believed in one God in contrast to their neighbors. Nonetheless, when we start examining the True Creation Story, the word “alone” has deep meanings.
God alone is the Divine Person Adam scorns.
My apology if my current thoughts are difficult to follow. It is that I have seen on CAF so many versions and reasons and allegory this and that for Original Sin, that my head kept spinning until I saw the words “God alone.” In my thinking, that rules out all of the versions and attempts at new versions such as Original Sin being like a fly in the ointment, the flaw in the beauty that we forgot myemail.constantcontact.com/Richard-Rohr-s-Meditation–Original-Blessing.html?soid=1103098668616&aid=yAlpFk3eNPc
Please note that this popular author does not consider the first three essential chapters of Genesis as being important.
When God alone created the world, including the Garden of Eden, He alone is responsible for the correct meaning of Genesis 2:15-17. And the Catholic Church is responsible for defining and declaring God’s doctrine of Original Sin. A quick look at the CCC Index of Citations, page 689, gives the paragraphs which use, in some way, verses from the first three important chapters of Genesis.
When it comes to the True Creation Story – It is not necessary to “reinvent the wheel.”
God alone created the world. (De Fide)
We know that the Hebrew Nation believed in one God in contrast to their neighbors. Nonetheless, when we start examining the True Creation Story, the word “alone” has deep meanings.
God alone is the Divine Person Adam scorns.
My apology if my current thoughts are difficult to follow. It is that I have seen on CAF so many versions and reasons and allegory this and that for Original Sin, that my head kept spinning until I saw the words “God alone.” In my thinking, that rules out all of the versions and attempts at new versions such as Original Sin being like a fly in the ointment, the flaw in the beauty that we forgot myemail.constantcontact.com/Richard-Rohr-s-Meditation–Original-Blessing.html?soid=1103098668616&aid=yAlpFk3eNPc
Please note that this popular author does not consider the first three essential chapters of Genesis as being important.
When God alone created the world, including the Garden of Eden, He alone is responsible for the correct meaning of Genesis 2:15-17. And the Catholic Church is responsible for defining and declaring God’s doctrine of Original Sin. A quick look at the CCC Index of Citations, page 689, gives the paragraphs which use, in some way, verses from the first three important chapters of Genesis.
When it comes to the True Creation Story – It is not necessary to “reinvent the wheel.”
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grannymh
Guest
The first thing to correct about the True Creation Story is the popular idea that God is a very mean giant who stomps on humans crushing some to death. Please be patient. There is a lot to consider when we consider who we really are.
The truth is that God looked upon His creatures with love. Genesis 1:25. Then there is a pause that begins God’s great act of love for one species. Genesis 1:26.
We, too, need to pause and consider what it means to have one all-powerful, supreme primary Divine Being. Catholics believe in “one God, the Father almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible.” (Creed loudly professed at Sunday Holy Sacrifice of the Mass)
One God does not mean two gods. There cannot be two supreme primary gods at the same time. Only one God can be first. Other gods are second or third, etc. Adam, who is created in the image of God, Genesis 1: 27 can never be the first God, that is, Adam can never be the Creator God. The universal *Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, *explains the “one God” principle in relation to the human species.
**CCC 396 **God created man in his image and established him in his friendship. A spiritual creature, man can live this friendship only in free submission to God. The prohibition against eating “of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil” spells this out: “for in the day that you eat of it, you shall die.” The “tree of the knowledge of good and evil” symbolically evokes the insurmountable limits that man, being a creature, must freely recognize and respect with trust. Man is dependent on his Creator, and subject to the laws of creation and to the moral norms that govern the use of freedom.
The fact that the human species has an insurmountable limit can often be overlooked.
Being peerless is what we see ourselves in the grand picture of life on planet earth. Somehow, maybe Genesis 3:1, we think that having intellective free choice means no bad consequences because we are not capable of rejecting a loving God. This overlooks the idea that if we are not capable of rejecting God, are we really capable of accepting God? If there is no choice, then we are the same as the critters described before the action of Genesis 1:27. In other words, we are actually proposing that we do not need a rational soul. But, we need to have a rational spiritual soul to
have joy eternal with God following bodily death. Spiritual is the operative word.
Before I pause to give readers time to think through the above, we also need to consider that there has to be the unity of the human species. The human picture does not produce various sub species like dogs which can be one kind or another.
All humans are human persons, each one worthy of profound respect.
The truth is that God looked upon His creatures with love. Genesis 1:25. Then there is a pause that begins God’s great act of love for one species. Genesis 1:26.
We, too, need to pause and consider what it means to have one all-powerful, supreme primary Divine Being. Catholics believe in “one God, the Father almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible.” (Creed loudly professed at Sunday Holy Sacrifice of the Mass)
One God does not mean two gods. There cannot be two supreme primary gods at the same time. Only one God can be first. Other gods are second or third, etc. Adam, who is created in the image of God, Genesis 1: 27 can never be the first God, that is, Adam can never be the Creator God. The universal *Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, *explains the “one God” principle in relation to the human species.
**CCC 396 **God created man in his image and established him in his friendship. A spiritual creature, man can live this friendship only in free submission to God. The prohibition against eating “of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil” spells this out: “for in the day that you eat of it, you shall die.” The “tree of the knowledge of good and evil” symbolically evokes the insurmountable limits that man, being a creature, must freely recognize and respect with trust. Man is dependent on his Creator, and subject to the laws of creation and to the moral norms that govern the use of freedom.
The fact that the human species has an insurmountable limit can often be overlooked.
Being peerless is what we see ourselves in the grand picture of life on planet earth. Somehow, maybe Genesis 3:1, we think that having intellective free choice means no bad consequences because we are not capable of rejecting a loving God. This overlooks the idea that if we are not capable of rejecting God, are we really capable of accepting God? If there is no choice, then we are the same as the critters described before the action of Genesis 1:27. In other words, we are actually proposing that we do not need a rational soul. But, we need to have a rational spiritual soul to
have joy eternal with God following bodily death. Spiritual is the operative word.
Before I pause to give readers time to think through the above, we also need to consider that there has to be the unity of the human species. The human picture does not produce various sub species like dogs which can be one kind or another.
All humans are human persons, each one worthy of profound respect.
G
grannymh
Guest
The human basic desire is to live in God’s Love.
G
grannymh
Guest
It may seem odd that at the beginning of Lent, we can turn to the True Creation Story and find God’s love relationship with us. Recall that God did not break the friendship relationship between humanity and Himself. Adam freely chose to shatter humankind’s original relationship with the Almighty Creator God.
God gives Adam the Garden of Eden as a place of nourishment for himself and his future spouse Eve.
Genesis 2:15,
The LORD God then took the man and settled him in the Garden of Eden, to cultivate and care for it.
God gives Himself to be with Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden.
Genesis 3:8-9
When they heard the sound of the LORD God walking about in the garden at the breezy time of the day,* the man and his wife hid themselves from the LORD God among the trees of the garden.The LORD God then called to the man and asked him: Where are you?
As we begin Lent, God calls us. Where are we?
The True Creation Story is not just some ancient information. The True Creation Story is meant for us. God began His love for us at the beginning of human history. Lent calls us to renew and most important deepen our love for the Most Holy Trinity.
Obviously, the Garden of Eden is gone. Still, God remains in His promise to us.
Genesis 3:15
I will put enmity between you and the woman,
and between your offspring and hers;
They will strike at your head,
while you strike at their heel.
CCC paragraphs which refer to Genesis 3:15
**CCC 410 **
After his fall, man was not abandoned by God. On the contrary, God calls him and in a mysterious way heralds the coming victory over evil and his restoration from his fall. This passage in Genesis is called the *Protoevangelium *(“first gospel”): the first announcement of the Messiah and Redeemer, of a battle between the serpent and the Woman, and of the final victory of a descendant of hers.
**CCC 411 **
The Christian tradition sees in this passage an announcement of the “New Adam” who, because he “became obedient unto death, even death on a cross”, makes amends superabundantly for the disobedience, of Adam. Furthermore many Fathers and Doctors of the Church have seen the woman announced in the *Protoevangelium *as Mary, the mother of Christ, the “new Eve”. Mary benefited first of all and uniquely from Christ’s victory over sin: she was preserved from all stain of original sin and by a special grace of God committed no sin of any kind during her whole earthly life.
God gives Adam the Garden of Eden as a place of nourishment for himself and his future spouse Eve.
Genesis 2:15,
The LORD God then took the man and settled him in the Garden of Eden, to cultivate and care for it.
God gives Himself to be with Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden.
Genesis 3:8-9
When they heard the sound of the LORD God walking about in the garden at the breezy time of the day,* the man and his wife hid themselves from the LORD God among the trees of the garden.The LORD God then called to the man and asked him: Where are you?
As we begin Lent, God calls us. Where are we?
The True Creation Story is not just some ancient information. The True Creation Story is meant for us. God began His love for us at the beginning of human history. Lent calls us to renew and most important deepen our love for the Most Holy Trinity.
Obviously, the Garden of Eden is gone. Still, God remains in His promise to us.
Genesis 3:15
I will put enmity between you and the woman,
and between your offspring and hers;
They will strike at your head,
while you strike at their heel.
CCC paragraphs which refer to Genesis 3:15
**CCC 410 **
After his fall, man was not abandoned by God. On the contrary, God calls him and in a mysterious way heralds the coming victory over evil and his restoration from his fall. This passage in Genesis is called the *Protoevangelium *(“first gospel”): the first announcement of the Messiah and Redeemer, of a battle between the serpent and the Woman, and of the final victory of a descendant of hers.
**CCC 411 **
The Christian tradition sees in this passage an announcement of the “New Adam” who, because he “became obedient unto death, even death on a cross”, makes amends superabundantly for the disobedience, of Adam. Furthermore many Fathers and Doctors of the Church have seen the woman announced in the *Protoevangelium *as Mary, the mother of Christ, the “new Eve”. Mary benefited first of all and uniquely from Christ’s victory over sin: she was preserved from all stain of original sin and by a special grace of God committed no sin of any kind during her whole earthly life.
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grannymh
Guest
Because of Adam and Eve, all of us are born in the image of God. This “image” is that we are capable of sharing in God’s own super-natural spiritual life. State of Sanctifying Grace. This is the reason we are united as human. And no one can deny that capability because all of us are descended from Adam and Eve and thus we all have inherited their specific human nature. This assures us of the unity of humankind in the image of God. Genesis 1:27 which is a basic essential teaching of the Catholic Church.
Animals can love us. Still, they cannot directly share in our life. There are animals which would like to have us for dinner. Still, we respect their species as being important in nature. While there are people who consider us as part of the animal kingdom due to our material decomposing anatomy, we instinctively know that our human nature, humankind, raises us above the animal kingdom.
Dramatic shift from Genesis 1:25 to Genesis 1:26-27
We can share in the Divine life of our Creator because our rational spiritual soul is in the image of a totally pure spiritual being. CCC 1730 has an interesting observation in small print. Please refer to CCC 20-21 for explanation of small print.
CCC 1730
“Man is rational and therefore like God; he is created with free will and is master over his acts.”
It is we humans who naturally choose or reject our Creator. And not some other way with God choosing some and rejecting others. Every human, because of the unity of humankind as Adam and Eve’s descendants, has an equal chance of loving and thus obeying our Creator God.
The beginning sentence of CCC 1260. I put the key point in bold.
**CCC 1260 **“Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery.”
Just because we can put our own feelings on God, that does not mean we know exactly what God should do. We do not know all the ways known to God. In our natural ignorance of all of God’s ways, we need to admit that we do not know the extent of God’s loving.
The human idea that God is not all loving is simply putting ourselves above God as if we created the universe according to our preferences.
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edwest2
Guest
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edwest2
Guest
E
edwest2
Guest
It’s actually not that simple.
From Catholic Answers:
"The Time Question
“Much less has been defined as to when the universe, life, and man appeared. The Church has infallibly determined that the universe is of finite age—that it has not existed from all eternity—but it has not infallibly defined whether the world was created only a few thousand years ago or whether it was created several billion years ago.”
Ed
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grannymh
Guest
That explains Genesis 1:1 to Genesis 1:25. Thank you.
Do you have comments about the verses Genesis 1:26 to Genesis 3:24? Those verses explain the rest of the story.
R
Rau
Guest
Does not seem likely that the Church will take this (timing question) to be a matter divinely revealed.
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Gorgias
Guest
Umm… so, you look at the Genesis 1 story and think, “not literal”, but when you read the story of the Fall of Man and see a talking snake, you think, “meh… it could happen”…?!?
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grannymh
Guest
“Literal” as used to interpret the first three sacred chapters in the book of Genesis can be considered a kind of red herring!Umm… so, you look at the Genesis 1 story and think, “not literal”, but when you read the story of the Fall of Man and see a talking snake, you think, “meh… it could happen”…?!?
Dancing around a talking snake is not necessary for those who actually know, understand, and accept the basic fundamental Catholic teachings which involve the True Creation Story. Naturally, these people would accept the guidance of the Holy Spirit during the preparation for and the actual major Ecumenical Catholic Church Council. Some of these people might even look at a few paragraphs in the universal Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition. Others might look for real events.
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Gorgias
Guest
Good point! Justin talked about “historicity” not about “literal” meaning. Therefore, my comment can be rephrased as “you look at Genesis 1 and say 'not historically accurate”, but you look at a talking snake in Genesis 3 and respond, “yeah, that’s literally historical!”…?!?
Fair enough: for Catholics, the question “was there really a talking snake?” isn’t relevant to what the Catholic Church teaches. However, Justin was talking about historicity in the context of the narrative of the Garden of Eden.
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grannymh
Guest
All this is a great reason for starting first with Catholic fundamental Dawn of Human History doctrines. The second step is to verify the fundamental doctrines as events listed in the first three informative chapters of Genesis. Starting with the verses in the first three informative chapters of Genesis is like having the tail wag the dog on certain week days.Good point! Justin talked about “historicity” not about “literal” meaning. Therefore, my comment can be rephrased as “you look at Genesis 1 and say 'not historically accurate”, but you look at a talking snake in Genesis 3 and respond, “yeah, that’s literally historical!”…?!?
Fair enough: for Catholics, the question “was there really a talking snake?” isn’t relevant to what the Catholic Church teaches. However, Justin was talking about historicity in the context of the narrative of the Garden of Eden.
Start with the basic doctrine, does God exist? If not, please go to the Apologetics Forum. Seriously, if God does not exist, that eliminates a lot of verses especially the annoying ones like Original Sin.
If I were a teacher, heaven forbid, I would have an open book test. I would ask my darling students to list the verses where God is real.
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Gorgias
Guest
So… where, in the question “talking snake as historically accurate?”, do you see even the *hint *of an assertion that “God does not exist” or “God is not real”???
J
JM3
Guest
Thus, evening and morning must have a different meaning than what we understand them to mean, and maybe the Creation is told from a different perspective.
Age of the Universe
J
JM3
Guest
I think what’s being said is that the universe is showing a controlled evolution between chaos and order. Each day is more orderly than the previous, and as the text said “That’s something any scientist will testify never happens in an unguided system. Order never arises from disorder spontaneously and remains orderly.”
You should read the article. It has some interesting points to it. Whether he is right or wrong?
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