The Truth About Justice

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So you don’t blame the people that make up society, you blame the laws the people that make up society created and abide by.

So who are you to tell us to change our laws?
I am not saying that any laws need to be changed, I am simply saying that the laws that guarantee me basic human rights do not exist. Also, the US constitution says that all men are created equal. Non-existant laws are the problem, not current laws. There are no laws that say someone can deny me healthcare because I am transsexual, but there are no laws that say someone cannot. People become Doctors to help people, they have no right to endanger my life by refusing necessary healthcare simply because of my transsexual status. I have insurance that will cover my healthcare, that’s all that should matter.
 
But if it’s legal, it’s legal, whether you personally feel it is horrible, unspeakable, or unjust, or not.
No one has the legal right to rape me or beat me near to death, that is a fact. When cops blame me for being attacked and refuse to do their jobs, that goes beyond the actions of any criminal. By the actions of cops, its legal to rape or beat me, well at least thats what impression the criminals get. One more thing, it is unjust to deny necessary healthcare to someone who desperately needs it. The legal basis for denying me necessary healthcare revolves around a law proposed by an extreme evangelical. I thought we had seperation of church and state.
 
I am not saying that any laws need to be changed, I am simply saying that the laws that guarantee me basic human rights do not exist. Also, the US constitution says that all men are created equal. Non-existant laws are the problem, not current laws. There are no laws that say someone can deny me healthcare because I am transsexual, but there are no laws that say someone cannot. People become Doctors to help people, they have no right to endanger my life by refusing necessary healthcare simply because of my transsexual status. I have insurance that will cover my healthcare, that’s all that should matter.
You think that adding new laws does not constitute “change”? Whatever, I’ll just grant the distinction and move on even though it’s merely academic.

So tell me why you think that violations of natural law, and in particular the sixth commandment, are human rights.

But I must add that you are suspiciously not telling the whole story about this alleged violation of your right to health care supposedly on the grounds of transsexuality. I’m on to you, Maria.

And by the way, nowhere in the Constitution does it say that anyone is created, let alone equal. That is a religious dogma, last time I checked.
 
No one has the legal right to rape me or beat me near to death, that is a fact. When cops blame me for being attacked and refuse to do their jobs, that goes beyond the actions of any criminal. By the actions of cops, its legal to rape or beat me, well at least thats what impression the criminals get. One more thing, it is unjust to deny necessary healthcare to someone who desperately needs it. The legal basis for denying me necessary healthcare revolves around a law proposed by an extreme evangelical. I thought we had seperation of church and state.
If, as you say, it was rape, then find a lawyer and sue your way to financial security! We do have antirape laws - lots of them, for over two hundred years. You think we should add more?
 
You think that adding new laws does not constitute “change”? Whatever, I’ll just grant the distinction and move on even though it’s merely academic.

So tell me why you think that violations of natural law, and in particular the sixth commandment, are human rights.

But I must add that you are suspiciously not telling the whole story about this alleged violation of your right to health care supposedly on the grounds of transsexuality. I’m on to you, Maria.

And by the way, nowhere in the Constitution does it say that anyone is created, let alone equal. That is a religious dogma, last time I checked.
Could you tell me how I am violating the sixth commandment? I am a virgin who believes in celibacy until marriage. I don’t think committing adultery is a human right and I never said that anywhere.

I’ll tell you the whole story about healthcare being denied on the basis of transsexuality, if you really want to hear it. Okay, first of all, I have Duchenne Muscular Dystrophy, a muscle wasting disease. I need to go to the hospital every few months and get prescriptions for medications that I will die without. About a year ago, I found out that I would not be getting my heart medication because the heart doctor refused to treat a “goddamn, immoral whore”. He still has a job, despite his use of vulgar language in the presence of children and his complete disregard for the health and safety of children. Luckily, for me that is, there was another doctor that realized that I would die without those medications.

Article IV, Section 2 of the constitution: The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities of Citizens in the several States.
 
If, as you say, it was rape, then find a lawyer and sue your way to financial security! We do have antirape laws - lots of them, for over two hundred years. You think we should add more?
I can’t afford a lawyer. More laws against rape would help. Also, more oversight when it comes to law enforcement agencies as well as empathy training.
 
I can’t afford a lawyer. More laws against rape would help. Also, more oversight when it comes to law enforcement agencies as well as empathy training.
In what sense is a blanket law saying ‘anyone who has sex (loosely defined to include thingw likeoral/digital as well as penetrative sex) with*** another person*** without their consent is guilty of a crime’ (which is very close to what all rape laws say that I know of, and I’ve worked in criminal law) not broad enough?

Or blanket laws covering sexual assault in general - which usually cover verbal as well as physical assault (meaning any threatening behaviour) that has a sexual component to it?

Or is it the way these offences are prosecuted and punished that is your real problem? If that’s the case it’s different enforcement/prosecution procedures and DIFFERENT, but not more, laws on penalties for rape or sexual assault that are needed.
 
Luckily, for me that is, there was another doctor that realized that I would die without those medications.

Article IV, Section 2 of the constitution: The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities of Citizens in the several States.
No, finding that second doctor was not luck, they did what a normal doctor does. You were extremely UNlucky in being treated so poorly by the first doctor. But that’s a rare case.

I have a family full of doctors, and know very well their friends who are also doctors. A large proportion of these are devoutly religious. All of them, of course, treat drug addicts, cohabiting couples and all sorts of other patients who indulge in behaviour they would personally consider to be immoral. But none would dare treat or speak to any patient, no matter what the patient’s circumstances, the way that first doctor treated you.
 
You accuse me of dressing in an inappropriate manner, I dress better than most other women out there.
I don’t think Winginitx said anything of the sort. If I am wrong, please cite his comment.
I can be expelled from school just for being transsexual, something that I cannot change.
Could you offer examples of why you think that is true? It will certainly help facilitate this discussion, and perhaps win over persons to your point of view.
I’m not allowed to marry people of either sex, so no I don’t have the same rights in that regard. I cannot marry the one I love, don’t tell me that I have the same rights.
Certainly the states of Texas and Kansas have ruled as such… But is it true nationwide? Could you present some evidence for your claim?
I have been raped before, when I reported it, the cops said I deserved it or was asking for it.
And this is horrific. I can’t imagine how you must have felt to be violated, and then not believed by the persons entrusted to handle what you experienced. Did you go to the hospital? Did you contact anyone who could back up your claim, so that justice be done - both against the rapist(s) and the police who ignored you? I realize how difficult it must be - most women do not pursue rape allegations, because the emotional cost is so high.
I have been denied necessary healthcare simply because I am transsexual, how is that equality?
Maria, I don’t know how comfortable you are talking about your situation, but specifics will really help this discussion. Its hard for persons to simply accept blanket statements which might go against their assumptions without knowing details which would convince them otherwise.
If I have a contract with a landlord, he can opt out of it just because I am transsexual. The fact that they can simply refuse to interview me even if I am qualified and not even know anything about me is unjust.
Yep, that is true. Of course, you are not saying that it happened to you, but that it could. Many states and cities forbid such a thing. Perhaps it would be good to relocate? Of course, just because a law forbids discrimination doesn’t mean that a landlord or employer can’t find a way around the law. Its well known at Walmart that if you try to organize a union, you will be fired for some reason or another, even though firing for union organizing is against the law.
I suffered for this country, I worked for this country,
This is very interesting. Could you explain what you mean?
I am not saying that any laws need to be changed, I am simply saying that the laws that guarantee me basic human rights do not exist
Maria, I disagree with you because I think discriminatory laws should be changed.

However, transgender protective laws do exist in some states and cities of the US. See my first post.

Of course, you could contend that such laws should be nationwide, and I would agree with that view, but to say that the laws don’t exist at all, I think, is misleading.
People become Doctors to help people, they have no right to endanger my life by refusing necessary healthcare simply because of my transsexual status. I have insurance that will cover my healthcare, that’s all that should matter.
I think you are right when it comes to emergency care. And of course there is that famous case of Robert Eads who had been a woman, and later contracted ovarian cancer, but couldn’t find a surgeon who would handle his care. But perhaps that is a rare occurrence. Seriously, wouldn’t you want to have doctor who had some kind of experience in dealing with male to female transsexuals, rather than the doctor learning on the job?
But if it’s legal, it’s legal, whether you personally feel it is horrible, unspeakable, or unjust, or not.
Wow! :eek: Do you really think that since abortion is legal, that is okay? That people shouldn’t protest against the law? Or try to change it? How about the Jim Crow laws of the American South up until about 1960 which enforced racial segregation. Should those laws have been protested? Or try to be changed?
So tell me why you think that violations of natural law, and in particular the sixth commandment, are human rights.
Eh? How has she violated the Sixth Commandment, and how has she violated natural law?
And by the way, nowhere in the Constitution does it say that anyone is created, let alone equal. That is a religious dogma, last time I checked.
erm… you might want to re-read the US Constitution and its amendments. It is true that the phrase “all men are created equal” is in the Declaration of Independence, and not the Constitution. However, the 14th Amendment guarantees equal protection under the laws of the US.
topics.law.cornell.edu/constitution/amendmentxiv
 
Could you tell me how I am violating the sixth commandment? I am a virgin who believes in celibacy until marriage. I don’t think committing adultery is a human right and I never said that anywhere.
If you are a virgin, then your doctor would have known that, and would not have called you a whore.

The sixth commandment implicitly covers more than just adultery, and I’ll get to that in a moment. But in the mean time I noticed that you avoided asking about natural law, probably because you know you have already violated it by having surgery that removed your perfectly good male parts and improvised something superficially resembling female parts in their place. No medical necessity beyond your *cri de coeur *that you were born in the wrong body.
I’ll tell you the whole story about healthcare being denied on the basis of transsexuality, if you really want to hear it. Okay, first of all, I have Duchenne Muscular Dystrophy, a muscle wasting disease. I need to go to the hospital every few months and get prescriptions for medications that I will die without. About a year ago, I found out that I would not be getting my heart medication because the heart doctor refused to treat a “goddamn, immoral whore”. He still has a job, despite his use of vulgar language in the presence of children and his complete disregard for the health and safety of children. Luckily, for me that is, there was another doctor that realized that I would die without those medications.
Wonderful. I could have sabotaged my own medical care in exactly the same way, had I an agenda of self-victimization. In case you can’t read between these lines: I don’t believe you.
Article IV, Section 2 of the constitution: The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities of Citizens in the several States.
LOL
 
Some guy decides to dress in women’s clothes and (presumably) to have his genitals amputated. Of course, in America, he is allowed to do it, and, absurd as that may be since genetically he is still a man, he is legally considered a woman. But he’s not satisfied with that. He actually thinks the rest of us don’t have the right to be appalled by his choices and that we should be compelled to associate with him by hiring him or renting to him. He wants to force us to pretend he actually changed gender, and if we can’t or won’t, then we are the bad people causing his unhappiness.

The reality is, though, that he is unhappy because he is insane. He should pray to God to cure him of his insanity.

By the way, is New Zealand now a haven for transvestite activists?
 
Maria wants to shove her religious beliefs down my throat while pretending that the Constitution is on her side.
I think she just wants to point out that the law vis-a-vis discrimination against transsexuals and transgendered people is different in different states. In spite of the fact that the Constitution (apparently) guarantees that citizens of ALL states should have the same rights (ie the same “privileges or immunities”).

I’m know next to nothing about US constitutional law, so I don’t know how that clause has been legally and judicially interpreted. She may have a point.

By the way, she is (if you read her initial post) an American and not a New Zealander, although New Zealand would be her preferred country of residence. In which case I wonder if she’s applied to migrate, and if not why not?
 
Maria wants to shove her religious beliefs down my throat while pretending that the Constitution is on her side.
Got it. I missed that she had earlier cited Article IV, Section 2 of the constitution: “The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities of Citizens in the several States.”

I am not sure what her point was. That provision merely says that citizens of the US can not be deprived of the rights of citizenship, regardless of what state they are in.
I think she just wants to point out that the law vis-a-vis discrimination against transsexuals and transgendered people is different in different states. In spite of the fact that the Constitution (apparently) guarantees that citizens of ALL states should have the same rights (ie the same “privileges or immunities”).

I’m know next to nothing about US constitutional law, so I don’t know how that clause has been legally and judicially interpreted. She may have a point.
hmmm… I’m not so sure. Granted, I am not a lawyer or a constitutional scholar, but I believe states in the US have the right to draft laws which disagree with neighboring states, so long as such laws do not conflict with federal law. For example, Nevada famously allows prostitution (and so did Rhode Island, until recently), but that doesn’t give prostitutes the right to set up shop in California.
By the way, she is (if you read her initial post) an American and not a New Zealander, although New Zealand would be her preferred country of residence. In which case I wonder if she’s applied to migrate, and if not why not?
My guess (and its just a guess) is that it has to do with the Orc infestation. It certainly would keep me away. Although, I believe they are confined to the South Island, so maybe Wellington, or better yet, Auckland (in case the Orcs learn to swim) would be okay.
 
Irrespective of whether he has had his genitals surgically modified, I don’t think calling a male transvestite “she” is compatible with Catholic belief. God assigned each individual a gender and man cannot change it.
 
Irrespective of whether he has had his genitals surgically modified, I don’t think calling a male transvestite “she” is compatible with Catholic belief. God assigned each individual a gender and man cannot change it.
Whatever you may think, the situation of transsexual/transgendered people is one that calls for much compassion in view of the discrimination and mistreatment they suffer, and not bludgeoning them over the head with moral indignation.

Put it this way - and I absolutely don’t mean the following to be in any way offensive to anyone, it’s the only way I can think of to make the point. The toothfairy isn’t real. That didn’t stop my parents and most others slipping money under kids’ pillows when they lose a tooth and saying something that is entirely untrue - that it was from the toothfairy.

I had a relative who worked as a doctor in a psychiatric hospital - I’m sure patients told her all sorts of weird and wonderful and quite untrue things. As the first step in their healing she had to reassure them that she wasn’t treating them as a joke. Which for at least some of those patients would’ve meant playing along with their fantasies - either temporarily or, for those patients who sadly were incurable - permanently.

Finally - there ARE people out there whose biology (not their psychology, their BIOLOGY, as in hormones, body parts and chromosomes) IS genuinely really confused and REALLY combines plenty of attributes of male and female such that a gender cannot clearly be established.

What of someone, for example, who has TWO fully developed sets of reproductive organs, one male, one female? Levels of testosterone, progesterone, estrogen etc that are inconsistent with their being male OR female? Similarly ambiguous biologies in other regards?

How on earth can you blithely say that God gave such people ONE gender? And if so, how on earth do you determine WHICH one when neither predominates?

Your attitude reminds me of the medieval mindset which assumed that because epilepsy and mental illness weren’t fully understood by medical science, sufferers must be possessed by demons and were treated as such.
 
Irrespective of whether he has had his genitals surgically modified, I don’t think calling a male transvestite “she” is compatible with Catholic belief. God assigned each individual a gender and man cannot change it.
First of all, I’m not a transvestite. I don’t get sexually aroused by expressing my true gender, please don’t demonize me. Also, you don’t know what gender god gave me, so don’t make assumptions. God gave me the female gender.
 
Maria wants to shove her religious beliefs down my throat while pretending that the Constitution is on her side.
Religious beliefs? I don’t believe in religion, so I have no religious beliefs. I have faith in God and in the church, that is all. Also, last time I checked transsexualism is not a religion. I don’t know how a biological condition can be a religion, however.
 
Irrespective of whether he has had his genitals surgically modified, I don’t think calling a male transvestite “she” is compatible with Catholic belief…
Of course, you are welcome to your interpretation, but I don’t think the Catholic Church has an official, public position regarding transsexualism.

And I see that Maria has already spoken about the “transvestite” confusion. Trannsexualism does not have anything to do with sexual desire, but with sexual identity.
God assigned each individual a gender and man cannot change it.
Yes, no doubt. But unless you know God’s mind, you can’t know what His decision was. Nature makes mistakes. Birth defects occur. Most transsexuals state that their sexual identity was established in utero. Their sexual identity may be in conflict with their sexual organs, but perhaps this is God’s will. Who knows? Not us humans, other than, perhaps the person who is suffering with a transsexual condition.

The science on transsexualism is still developing. Preliminary results suggest that there is a biological basis for cross-sex identity. But much needs to be learned.

I think that is why the Church has held off on making a formal declaration on the subject.
 
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