The truth about 'St. Paul' aka Saul of Tarsus (Help)

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You have a long row to hoe. To begin with, Muslims believe that Abraham was sacrificing Ishmael.
 
They believe that St. Paul started Christianity. That Jesus was who they say he was, a mortal, a prophet. St. Paul supposedly turned on his Jewish masters by riding on Jesus Christ and making Him to be divine. So by their viewpoint, St. Paul manufactured the tale that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

Curious though that the other Apostles are saying the same thing as St. Paul. Did he mention anything about that?
 
Welcome to the forum!

People are understandably reluctant to believe Jesus is the Son of God. It is an astonishing claim - that a human being is the Creator of the universe! If we knew nothing else about the carpenter of Jerusalem we would dismiss it as a preposterous idea. It outrages strict monotheists even more than non-believers because to associate the Deity with a mere mortal seems to amount to blasphemy.

Yet the moral teaching of Jesus is the basis of modern civilisation and is enshrined in the UN Declaration of Human Rights with the universally accepted principles of liberty, equality and fraternity. His command to love others even at the cost of one’s own life would not make sense if He had avoided being crucified. Nor would His question “What does it profit a man if he gains the whole world and loses his own soul?” Nor would the Beatitudes which reflect His own character and way of life.

He was an abject failure by human standards. The Messiah was supposed to liberate His people from Roman oppression, instead of which he submitted to an unjust execution. That is why many Jews are still awaiting the Holy One of Israel. But Jesus put into practice the prayer He gave us by glorifying His Father, doing His Will on earth and ushering in His kingdom. He has given us the Bread of Life and forgiven those who hated and condemned Him. He resisted temptation and delivered us from evil by the power of His love. He has shown us how to be perfect as His heavenly Father is perfect.

“Which of you can accuse me of sin?” The failure to answer that question leads us to acknowledge His divinity. It is impossible to separate the words of Our Lord’s Prayer from His Life, Passion, Death and Resurrection. The correspondence between them is so beautifully precise that there is no other possible explanation…
 
tonyrey said:
Welcome to the forum!

People are understandably reluctant to believe Jesus is the Son of God. It is an astonishing claim - that a human being is the Creator of the universe! If we knew nothing else about the carpenter of Jerusalem we would dismiss it as a preposterous idea. It outrages strict monotheists even more than non-believers because to associate the Deity with a mere mortal seems to amount to blasphemy.

Yet the moral teaching of Jesus is the basis of modern civilisation and is enshrined in the UN Declaration of Human Rights with the universally accepted principles of liberty, equality and fraternity. His command to love others even at the cost of one’s own life would not make sense if He had avoided being crucified. Nor would His question “What does it profit a man if he gains the whole world and loses his own soul?” Nor would the Beatitudes which reflect His own character and way of life.

He was an abject failure by human standards. The Messiah was supposed to liberate His people from Roman oppression, instead of which he submitted to an unjust execution. That is why many Jews are still awaiting the Holy One of Israel. But Jesus put into practice the prayer He gave us by glorifying His Father, doing His Will on earth and ushering in His kingdom. He has given us the Bread of Life and forgiven those who hated and condemned Him. He resisted temptation and delivered us from evil by the power of His love. He has shown us how to be perfect as His heavenly Father is perfect.

“Which of you can accuse me of sin?” The failure to answer that question leads us to acknowledge His divinity. It is impossible to separate the words of Our Lord’s Prayer from His Life, Passion, Death and Resurrection. The correspondence between them is so beautifully precise that there is no other possible explanation…
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Actually it is not an astonishing claim and it is a claim that has been made for ages. The difference with the claim as seen through the lens of Catholicism, as distinct from the traditional Way, is that the Church has, over time and through misunderstanding, limited Sonship to one Person wheras it is a birthright of everyman. This is not a surprising misunderstanding given the historical conditions at the time and the sacred nature of the insights of the ancient Way they represent. Those were intended to be for the few, but the symbolism surrounding the Understanding became popularized and therefore diluted and personalized to a historical figure, as Holy and True as He might have been.

The Great Commandment and the Golden Rule(s) are an intrinsic and inescapable ethic in that Way. They are therefore equally ancient and precede Jesus’ restatement of them in His particular Ministry. So your statement about Jesus is true, but it is so because of what He stood for which we don’t see but “through a glass darkly” and which is True.

Some of the Catholic tradition has seen through to this underlying Reality, notable the Mystics, such as St. Thomas Aquinas after his final revelation, and such as Sts. Theresa of Avila, John of the Cross, Meister Eckhart, etc, etc. The Church appears to disregard other mystics not of its own tradition, or even of its own, past and present, who see the solution of this apparent contradiction. Until we see as they do, it will remain to seem a contradiction from a lower level of viewing. A higher viewpoint always unifies.
 
winagain said:
Actually it is not an astonishing claim and it is a claim that has been made for ages. The difference with the claim as seen through the lens of Catholicism, as distinct from the traditional Way, is that the Church has, over time and through misunderstanding, limited Sonship to one Person wheras it is a birthright of everyman.
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The Sonship of Jesus is quite distinct from that of everyone else unless you reject His divinity.
This is not a surprising misunderstanding given the historical conditions at the time and the sacred nature of the insights of the ancient Way they represent. Those were intended to be for the few, but the symbolism surrounding the Understanding became popularized and therefore diluted and personalized to a historical figure, as Holy and True as He might have been.
Click to expand...
He was not only holy and true. The prayer He gave us epitomises His mission on earth. He dedicated His life to us and chose to die so that we might be delivered from evil…
The Great Commandment and the Golden Rule(s) are an intrinsic and inescapable ethic in that Way. They are therefore equally ancient and precede Jesus’ restatement of them in His particular Ministry. So your statement about Jesus is true, but it is so because of what He stood for which we don’t see but “through a glass darkly” and which is True.
Click to expand...
Jesus did not simply restate an ancient ethic. He raised to a new level of perfection by telling us to love not only our neighbours but also our enemies and everyone who needs us. His love is perfect because it embraces the whole of humanity and the whole of Creation.
Some of the Catholic tradition has seen through to this underlying Reality, notable the Mystics, such as St. Thomas Aquinas after his final revelation, and such as Sts. Theresa of Avila, John of the Cross, Meister Eckhart, etc, etc. The Church appears to disregard other mystics not of its own tradition, or even of its own, past and present, who see the solution of this apparent contradiction. Until we see as they do, it will remain to seem a contradiction from a lower level of viewing. A higher viewpoint always unifies.
Click to expand...
The only reason why saints and mystics of other traditions have not been canonised is because it would lead to confusion and give the impression that the Catholic Church is dispensable…
 
tonyrey said:
The Sonship of Jesus is quite distinct from that of everyone else unless you reject His divinity.

He was not only holy and true. The prayer He gave us epitomises His mission on earth. He dedicated His life to us and chose to die so that we might be delivered from evil…
Jesus did not simply restate an ancient ethic. He raised to a new level of perfection by telling us to love not only our neighbours but also our enemies and everyone who needs us. His love is perfect because it embraces the whole of humanity and the whole of Creation.

The only reason why saints and mystics of other traditions have not been canonised is because it would lead to confusion and give the impression that the Catholic Church is dispensable…
Click to expand...
I do not reject His divinity. That is impossible. But the Church has through ignorance rejected the divinity that allows each on to say “I.” “Me” is passing, “I” is permanent. The Soul is of God.

Absolutely fight about the prayer. It is the perfect epitomization of the Law of Reciprocity that is consequent of “I and the Father are One.” It is the ancient high teaching which has been misunderstood by popularization and the historicization of Jesus by the Church. “I and the Father are One” is the root of morality, the Great Commandment, and the Golden Rule. It is as well the root teaching of non dualism as Jesus spoke and Moses spoke. But that is not for the masses. Making it for the masses by politization in the third century let the actuality of Jesus Teaching go by the wayside. Do you not know how Christianity was spread in the early days? It might be worth a study.

Dear God, Tonyrey, the truth CANNOT be dispensed with, whether it wears a Catholic garment or any other. I read the works of the mystic Saints and weep at the beauty and Truth of their realization. I love the beauty of the Mass. But I cannot bear the smallness to which the Church has relegated God. That is why, finally, after decades of devotion I had to put myself into an environment that was not so veiled and had useful, direct, repeatable practice, as well ad a more universal exegesis. I have NOTHING against the Truth of the Church. I only wish clarity of thought and recognition for those who are able to move that way.

God IS with you. Your intelligence and devotion are proof of that. I have great respect for you, much more than you might wish to acknowledge, Tonyrey. It is just that finally we are not our thoughts. Belief and faith are yet of the world of thoughts. There is far far more than that which includes thoughts and elevates them. Remember that the original meaning of “sin” is “to miss the point.” I am only here to point to the Point, as others on here have and are attempting to do.

Blessings
 
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