The truth about the fall of the Roman Empire... Are we on the same road?

[gypsyfamily]

When I was in college I took a class that explained the fall the of Roman Empire. This will be short! (I promise). Besides all the gluttoney, killing of humans in an arena for sport, promiscuity among heterosexuals I was taught that the BIGGEST reason for the fall was…HOMOSEXUALITY!! Homosexuality was considered the normal acceptable way of life at the end. It lead to confusion lack of law and order as there was no order in their own lives except in the Christian Underground.

SOMEONE PLEASE RESEARCH THIS AND GET IT OUT THERE. I am not eloquent enough to do it.

George Weigel, Pope Benidict XVI, Scott Hahn, Dr. and Lisa Popcheck(forgive the spelling if it’s wrong), Drew Mariani where are you!?!?!?!

 

[Scott_Waddell]

I’m inclined to believe Rome fell due to government taking an increasing share of the wealth through taxes and providing less-and-less services (defense for instance).

Scott

 

[severinus]

Scott Waddell is correct.

The Roman Empire fell due to many things: influx of the barbarian peoples, loss of the tax base, the split into Constantinopolitan and Roman governments, unsettled and violent imperial successions, loss of basic services, etc. Gibbon blamed, in part, the adoption of Christianity.

Christianity was certainly not underground at the fall of the Empire. With the exception of Julian the Apostate, the emperors in the 4th and 5th centuries were Christian. The fall is a historical issue, not a theological one.

It is important to remember that the ‘fall’ of Rome was a very gradual thing; it happened over time. As the deterioration continued, it is doubtful that most common people in the provinces would have cared very much. The last few emperors were quite feeble.

I have never heard of the ‘homosexual theory.’ Doubtless there was plenty of immorality in Rome and everywhere else, but that certainly does not explain the end of the Empire.

Hope that helps a little

 

[YinYangMom]

I tend to think we’re on the same path as the Divided Kingdom…

I haven’t really looked into it much, yet, but it’s beginning to feel that way. Where God’s chosen people (the twelve tribes) split up over cultural practices/mixed marriages and the like. The cycle took hundreds of year to complete and along the way prophets were sent to set people straight. In the end came Jesus, and those who believed became Christians, while the others are still waiting for the Messiah.

One thing I’ve learned is that God is quite patient, He allows us to make mistakes and learn from them - even if it takes multiple generations to get the lesson right. So when I get the urge to get impatient with how messed up things are around us, I take a deep breath and remind myself we’re in the midst of a greater cycle.

Just looking at the Catholic church is evidence that we’re in some sort of cycle…we had Vatican II, we had the scandals, we have a split among the bishops as to how strictly they choose to guide their flock, we have those followers who were taught wrong and those who were taught right meeting here on the forums to find out there’s more to the picture…and then we have JPII who travelled and wrote extensively to help pull us together and back onto the right path…we need patience, we need prayers, but we will get through this.

 

[JamesD]

I have heard ridiculous statements to the affect that Christianity caused the fall of the Roman Empire!

This has always been from folks who are trying to claim homosexuality as being OK.

I don’t know how widely this is being spread.

 

[LCMS_No_More]

What a ridiculous notion. Men having sex together has been going on since time immemorial in every culture on the face of the earth (which doesn’t justify the fact that it IS a sin). It is illogical to believe that 1 to MAYBE 2% of the population can affect a society in quite that way.

Of course, I see this is further evidence of the lack of charity that some people have when it comes to this particular sin. I don’t get it. St. Paul said that the greatest of the virtues is LOVE (charity), and it seems to me that some people just love to throw stones at people who are afflicted with this particular temptation and besetting sin instead of praying for them and speaking the truth IN LOVE about it.

In other words, the Church’s authentic teaching is what we should be putting out there instead of our own opinions. I’ve seen people who are supposed Catholics talk about how they are “repulsed” by people who have Same-Sex Attractions. This kind of response or language is not of the Holy Spirit but is of the flesh. Stop living out of the flesh and start living according to the Holy Spirit…just like St. Francis of Assisi did when he embraced the leper.

Again, am I saying that we should condone genital expressions of homosexuality? GOD FORBID! The Church’s teaching is that this is a sin and I will always say that. We should ALWAYS be pointing people to Christ, whether they are actively practicing homosexuality or living chastely according to the Church’s teaching.

 

[YinYangMom]

LCMS_No_More:

It is illogical to believe that 1 to MAYBE 2% of the population can affect a society in quite that way.

Isn’t that what happened in Hitler’s Germany though?

Isn’t that what’s happening now with the Islamic extremists?

I don’t think we can underestimate the damage a minority philosophy has on a society, let alone the world.

Not that I buy into the notion that the underlying behavior of homosexuality caused the fall of a nation, nor will it cause the fall of ours…but I cannot deny it has had a long-term negative affect on the nation as a whole.

 

[Bobby_A.Greene]

Rome decayed from within. The ruling class became indifferent, second class citizens (women & slaves) got equal rights, and immigration was unchecked. Rome simply lost its national identity.

Rome was a nation of engineers, soldiers, lawyers and multi-religions which describes what the U.S. has become. The U.S. is also suffering from an indifferent ruling class, second class citizens gaining equal rights (homosexuals, etc.), immigration into the U.S. is unchecked, and the U.S. has a multitude of religions. The United States of America is also losing its national identity. America is going the way of Rome.

 

[YinYangMom]

Bobby A. Greene:

Rome decayed from within. The ruling class became indifferent, second class citizens (women & slaves) got equal rights, and immigration was unchecked. Rome simply lost its national identity.

Rome was a nation of engineers, soldiers, lawyers and multi-religions which describes what the U.S. has become. The U.S. is also suffering from andindifferent ruling class, second class citizens gaining equal rights (homosexuals, etc.), immigration into the U.S. is unchecked, and the U.S. has a multitude of religions. The United States of America is also losing its national identity. America is going the way of Rome.

Well, that I can understand better, though I oppose the notion of homosexuals being ‘second class citizens’, "minority, perhaps, but not second-class.

I actually think the introduction of contraception has done more damage to our nation than the expansion of the homosexual population, but that’s just my opinion.

Certainly the U.S.A. lost it’s national identity with the Vietnam war, I don’t know why or how, but that 60s revolution cleared the fog of “authority being right just because they were the authority”. Of course, after that was a void, one which is still trying to be filled.

I am hopeful, however, with the growth of young people seeking and embracing the Catholic faith, that we may yet get the Truth revealed to all. The evangelical protestants have gone too far by politicising their approach, but that has helped the rest of us to pick up the banner to set the path straight. It’ll take time, but I’m optimistic.

 

[Bobby_A.Greene]

YinYangMom:

Well, that I can understand better, though I oppose the notion of homosexuals being ‘second class citizens’, "minority, perhaps, but not second-class.

Hello YinYangMom,

Just to explain, the term 2nd class citizen as it applies to history is not meant to be derogatory, but to identify a social group that has been marginalized in that particular society.

In contemporary 21st century America, a historian might say that blacks, illegal aliens, homosexuals, the poor & unemployed, were 2nd class citizens to identify them as considered different from the mainstream citizenry and being somewhat marginalized.

Rome never lost its national identity during its 900 year reign from any of its controversial wars, and neither has America lost its national identity from any of its controversial wars. The Mexican War was vehemently protested in its day, most notably by Henry David Thoreau and James Fenimore Cooper, yet citizens remained as American as apple pie since then.

But today in America with an unchecked policy of ‘diversity’, what is it now that defines being an American? Certainly not being Catholic, or being Anglo, or being blonde haired blue eyed. So what is it today that marks an American citizen as American?

I certain do not relate to blacks, Mexicans, homosexuals, protestants, the wealthy, or to lawyers, doctors, or judges. So how do I relate to my fellow Americans if they don’t relate to me?

 

[LCMS_No_More]

I certain do not relate to blacks, Mexicans, homosexuals, protestants, the wealthy, or to lawyers, doctors, or judges. So how do I relate to my fellow Americans if they don’t relate to me?

(sarcasm:ON) Truly a Christian attitude. St. Paul would be so proud. (sarcasm:OFF)

 

[Bobby_A.Greene]

quote=LCMS_No_More Truly a Christian attitude. St. Paul would be so proud. (sarcasm:OFF)
[/quote]

Thank you for indicating the sarcasm, because it is only the plain unvarnished truth that I do not and have been unable, no matter how hard I tried, to relate to the Afro-American.

The Afro-American makes up 11-12% of the U.S. population, yet contributes to 55% of the crime rate, and their diproportionate rate of crime is not lost on them either as a black American expressed amazement that I have never been to jail, while another Afro-American expressed amazement that I knew my father. It is sad but true that all black areas in America are also high crime areas. There have been two racial attacks against whites this week in the black area of my city, along with three black on black gang murders. I simply cannot relate to this behaviour and I openly admit it.

I don’t speak Spanish and don’t see why I should in America yet someone told me that you won’t get hired in southern Los Angeles if you don’t speak Spanish. The assimilation process for all immigrants has been to learn English, not the other way around. How can I relate to this?

Not relating to homosexuality should be a given, and being a Roman Catholic I may understand protestanism but I cannot relate to it.

So there is a parallel to ancient Rome and contemporary America, though it may not be historiographically correct.

 

[LCMS_No_More]

Well, just as long as you understand that you ARE ignoring St. Paul (Gal. 3:28) and St. James (Jas 2:1-6) with that kind of unchristian and uncharitable attitude.

The Afro-American makes up 11-12% of the U.S. population, yet contributes to 55% of the crime rate, and their diproportionate rate of crime is not lost on them either as a black American expressed amazement that I have never been to jail, while another Afro-American expressed amazement that I knew my father. It is sad but true that all black areas in America are also high crime areas. There have been two racial attacks against whites this week in the black area of my city, along with three black on black gang murders. I simply cannot relate to this behaviour and I openly admit it.

So, you refuse to relate to all black people on this basis? Um…see above.

I don’t speak Spanish and don’t see why I should in America yet someone told me that you won’t get hired in southern Los Angeles if you don’t speak Spanish. The assimilation process for all immigrants has been to learn English, not the other way around. How can I relate to this?

First of all, that part about “southern Los Angeles” is a bald-faced LIE. I LIVE in Los Angeles. If you live here, too and can’t get hired, it’s probably not because you refuse to gain an additional skill but because you have a bad attitude and are using that as an excuse…it’s common among people who think this way.

Not relating to homosexuality should be a given, and being a Roman Catholic I may understand protestanism but I cannot relate to it.

See, now I’m beginning to see your issue. It’s that you are failing to see the people in these categories as genuine human PERSONS who are created in the image of God, who are loved by God and need the grace of God.

I’m same-sex attracted and I find your statement insulting and unchristian. You don’t related to my temptation and aren’t expected to. If you are a Christian, of any stripe, you are expected to relate to each PERSON as someone who is created in the image of God, who is loved by God and needs the grace of God.

So there is a parallel to ancient Rome and contemporary America, though it may not be historiographically correct.

Ancient Rome and contemporary America are very similar. Both demonstrate extreme arrogance and the notion that they are the only true measure of good in the world. As someone once misquoted: “Pride goeth before a fall.”

 

[Bobby_A.Greene]

LCMS_No_More:

Well, just as long as you understand that you ARE ignoring St. Paul (Gal. 3:28) and St. James (Jas 2:1-6) with that kind of unchristian and uncharitable attitude.

Not to be difficult, but how does not relating become uncharitable?

 

[YinYangMom]

Bobby A. Greene:

Hello YinYangMom,

Just to explain, the term 2nd class citizen as it applies to history is not meant to be derogatory, but to identify a social group that has been marginalized in that particular society.

In contemporary 21st century America, a historian might say that blacks, illegal aliens, homosexuals, the poor & unemployed, were 2nd class citizens to identify them as considered different from the mainstream citizenry and being somewhat marginalized.

Rome never lost its national identity during its 900 year reign from any of its controversial wars, and neither has America lost its national identity from any of its controversial wars. The Mexican War was vehemently protested in its day, most notably by Henry David Thoreau and James Fenimore Cooper, yet citizens remained as American as apple pie since then.

But today in America with an unchecked policy of ‘diversity’, what is it now that defines being an American? Certainly not being Catholic, or being Anglo, or being blonde haired blue eyed. So what is it today that marks an American citizen as American?

I certain do not relate to blacks, Mexicans, homosexuals, protestants, the wealthy, or to lawyers, doctors, or judges. So how do I relate to my fellow Americans if they don’t relate to me?

Thanks for the clarification.

As for the affect of unchecked policy of diversity…those are all good questions.

Keep in mind I’m of hispanic decent, so I’ve never been able to relate to being ‘American’ based on appearances or profession anyway - regardless of the fact I’m a third generation American born hispanic.

I was raised to be Catholic first, American second, Mexican third, Democrat fourth, I guess, looking back on things. Being that I was born in the early 60s perhaps that’s why, from my perspective, I credit the 60s revolution against Established Government mindset with the beginning of the fall. Considering the 60s revolution was about the war and civil rights, perhaps we’re both right.

 

[YinYangMom]

Bobby A. Greene:

I do not and have been unable, no matter how hard I tried, to relate to the Afro-American.

The Afro-American makes up 11-12% of the U.S. population, yet contributes to 55% of the crime rate, and their diproportionate rate of crime is not lost on them either as a black American expressed amazement that I have never been to jail, while another Afro-American expressed amazement that I knew my father. It is sad but true that all black areas in America are also high crime areas. There have been two racial attacks against whites this week in the black area of my city, along with three black on black gang murders. I simply cannot relate to this behaviour and I openly admit it.

I don’t speak Spanish and don’t see why I should in America yet someone told me that you won’t get hired in southern Los Angeles if you don’t speak Spanish. The assimilation process for all immigrants has been to learn English, not the other way around. How can I relate to this?

Not relating to homosexuality should be a given, and being a Roman Catholic I may understand protestanism but I cannot relate to it.

So there is a parallel to ancient Rome and contemporary America, though it may not be historiographically correct.

For such a history buff, how can you not relate to the African American or the Mexican American? Africans didn’t come to the U.S. of their own accord. That was the U.S. businessman’s doing, just as the oppression of the blacks after their liberation from slavery falls on the U.S. government, so don’t blame them for the high crime rate and poverty they ‘bring’ to your neighborhood.

Mexicans lived in Mexico when the U.S. decided to carve out Texas, California and the other southwest region for themselves, so don’t go crying about all the Mexicans in those areas.

And don’t even get me started about my native american roots, let alone the italian, irish, polish, german influx which helped to make this country as wonderful as it is.

So you have a problem ‘identifying’ with this nation’s diverse population…and you acknowledge that. Great. It’s a good first step…but now fix your mindset because diversity is not going away. Don’t continue ‘blaming’ diversity for Americans not being able to find common ground.

 

[YinYangMom]

Though that still leaves the question…

What is being an American all about???

Is there one common thread we can rally around???

I would suggest “FREEDOM”…
Americans are a FREE people. Free to be who they are, to make a life for themselves and we will always rally around anyone who tries to take that freedom away from us, including the government.

 

[YinYangMom]

LCMS_No_More:

Ancient Rome and contemporary America are very similar. Both demonstrate extreme arrogance and the notion that they are the only true measure of good in the world. As someone once misquoted: “Pride goeth before a fall.”

Well posted. :clapping:

Thanks!

 

[LCMS_No_More]

So you have a problem ‘identifying’ with this nation’s diverse population…and you acknowledge that. Great. It’s a good first step…but now fix your mindset because diversity is not going away. Don’t continue ‘blaming’ diversity for Americans not being able to find common ground.

VERY well said.

 

[severinus]

Not my area of expertise, but I could not let this go without a comment.

The record of the US in dealing with African-American poverty and disadvantage has been abysmal. I love this country, but our treatment of Blacks has not helped them one bit. The abandonment of southern Blacks following Reconstruction was criminal. African-American illegitimacy rates, once lower than those of the rest of the population, have skyrocketed in the past fifty years. Black fathers have been removed from their place in the family by a misguided welfare system. All this while we are pouring billions of dollars into Great Society programs. Throwing money at Black communities does not work; it perpetuates dependence and the break-up of families.

Most of us do not seem to care about Black-on-Black crime unless it spills into our neighborhoods. And have we reached out to African-Americans to welcome them into the Church?

If we start quoting statistics on African-American crime, we also have to look at its causes.