T
Tom
Guest
Agree, you don’t earn your salvation, very basic Catholic teaching.
Disagree. As stated in previous post.
- Status
M
mikeledes
Guest
The Catholic Church has never believed we can deliever ourselves from the debt of sin by our good works. Our good works must be done in a state of grace (i.e. after we have been forgiven).
Yes, genuine faith can and should and most likely will result in good works. However, there is another factor involved, perseverance. The Bible says that only those who persevere to the end will be saved. Perseverance in what?
Romans 2: 6-7
6who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:
7to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
Perseverance in faith and godliness is required. You seem to be fixated on this passage, but there is another passage that basically says the same thing using different words:
Galatians 6:7-9
**7Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap.
8 For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
9Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary. **
A Christian can and will do good. However, there is no assurance that every genuine Christian will persevere in doing so until the end.
God Bless,
Michael
S
Socrates4Jesus
Guest
Wow, Tom! You have posted a lot for me to consider. It might take awhile, but i’ll thoughtfully read it all. I’ll post a reply once i take it all in.
Thank you.
Thank you.
S
Socrates4Jesus
Guest
Thank you, Michael. I should amend my logical argument then:
(1b) When a man trusts in his good works, he falsely believes his wages (or reward) are not credited to him by God as a gift, but as an obligation(2b) But the truth is that when a man does not trust in his own good works, but instead trusts in God who justifies the wicked, this trust in God is credited to him by God as righteousness.(3b) The Jewish moral Law, which includes the 10 commandments, raises awareness of how wrong our sins are, but this knowledge is powerless to deliver us from the temptation to commit the sins that we agree are wrong to commit.(4b) We cannot deliver ourselves from the power of our desire to sin and earn God’s forgiveness through good works (e.g., through avoiding temptation and saying and doing good things).(5b) Eternal life is a gift we can receive but not a reward we can earn.(6b) We cannot deliver ourselves from sin and earn eternal life as a reward by working for it (i.e. resisting temptation and saying and doing good things).(7b) Genuine saving faith is impossible without repentance.(8b) Those who repent will do good works, because a change of attitude results in a change of action. (9b) Only those who preserver in repenting and trusting God until the day of their physical death will remain in possession of the gift of eternal life.(10b) Only he who continues to do good works until the day of his physical death shows that he still has this gift of eternal life.therefore
(20b) What St. Paul was saying is that doing good works is not what causes God to give us the gift of eternal life.and(21b) However, everyone who does receive the gift of eternal life will do good works (i.e., he will show he has the gift by what he says and does).
What you might see, Michael, is that adding your premises (9b) and (10b) does not change the fact that these premises and the others lead to conclusion (20b).
I’m curious, Michael, what do you think of this conclusion (20b)?
S
Socrates4Jesus
Guest
Tom:
I’m glad you are joining the dialog, and hope others will do the same!
The list is of several premises (1 - 10 at last count) that lead to two conclusions (# 20 and # 21). I use this method to help communicate the ideas more clearly, concisely and cogently. It’s a way of making it easier to discuss a complex subject.
To help alleviate your confusion about what is meant by the word trust, perhaps i should reword the premise
(1c) When a man trusts in his own good works (or his own self-righteousness or goodness), he falsely believes his wages (or reward) are not credited to him by God as a gift, but as an obligation (that is, he mistakenly believes he can earn eternal life as a reward for the good things he says and does).
You see, faith (or trust) is only as good as the object in which it is placed. Let me explain by way of an example: A few weeks ago i stood on a chair to reach a shelf on the top of my bedroom closet so that i could put some clothes on that shelf. I had complete faith that the chair would hold my weight. I was mistaken. The chair in which i placed my trust had a broken leg and it collapsed! I was not injured, but felt a fool for putting confidence in that chair. My trust was sincere, but sincerely wrong.
The question i am trying to answer is, “When it comes to receiving eternal life, in what should i put my trust?” It might help to add two more premises to the logical “argument”:
(11c) Faith is only as good as the object in which it is placed.
(12c) A Christian should put his faith (or trust) in what Christ did for him, rather than in what he does for Christ, in order to receive eternal life.
S
Socrates4Jesus
Guest
Good question, Tom! I’m thinking repentance is not something i do, but something i decide. The same is true of faith. It is not something i do, but something in which (or someone in whom) i believe or trust.
St. John the Baptist warned hypocrites that they should
Produce fruit in keeping with repentance.
(Matthew 3:18)
Repentance is agreeing with God that what i’ve done is wrong and that i must change my actions. Repentance is my motivation; the good things i say and do (or fruit) in keeping with repentance are my actions. For example, repentance is the reason (or cause) of my resisting temptation; resisting temptation is the result (or consequence) or repentance.
We might want to add two more premises, then:
(13c) Repentance is a change of mind or attitude; it is not a change of action, but it does result in a change in our words and deeds.
(14c) Faith is trust in God; it is not what we say or do, but it does cause us to speak and act in certain ways that shows we trust God.
(15c) Faith and repentance are like two sides of the same coin; you cannot have one without the other.
S
Socrates4Jesus
Guest
With Tom’s help, the revised logical “argument” we are now considering is this:
(1c) When a man trusts in his own good works (or his own self-righteousness or goodness), he falsely believes his wages (or reward) are not credited to him by God as a gift, but as an obligation (that is, he mistakenly believes he can earn eternal life as a reward for the good things he says and does).
(2b) But the truth is that when a man does not trust in his own good works (or his own self-righteousness or goodness), but instead trusts in God who justifies the wicked through the good work Jesus accomplished through the crucifixion, this trust in God is credited to him by God as righteousness.(3c) The Jewish moral Law, which includes the 10 commandments, raises awareness of how wrong our sins are, but this knowledge is powerless to deliver us from the temptation to commit the sins that we agree are wrong to commit.(4c) We cannot deliver ourselves from the power of our desire to sin and earn God’s forgiveness through good works (e.g., through avoiding temptation and saying and doing good things).(5c) Eternal life is a gift we can receive but not a reward we can earn.(6c) We cannot deliver ourselves from sin and earn eternal life as a reward by working for it (i.e. resisting temptation and saying and doing good things).(7c) Genuine saving faith is impossible without repentance.(8c) Those who repent will do good works, because a change of attitude results in a change of action. (9c) Only those who preserver in repenting and trusting God until the day of their physical death will remain in possession of the gift of eternal life.(10c) Only he who continues to do good works until the day of his physical death shows that he still has this gift of eternal life.
(11c) Faith is only as good as the object in which it is placed.
(12c) A Christian should put his faith (or trust) in what Christ did for him, rather than in what he does for Christ, in order to receive eternal life.
(13c) Repentance is a change of mind or attitude; it is not a change of action, but it does result in a change in our words and deeds.
(14c) Faith is trust in God; it is not what we say or do, but it does cause us to speak and act in certain ways that shows we trust God.
(15c) Faith and repentance are like two sides of the same coin; you cannot have one without the other.
therefore(20b) What St. Paul was saying is that doing good works is not what causes God to give us the gift of eternal life.and(21b) However, everyone who does receive the gift of eternal life will do good works (i.e., he will show he has the gift by what he says and does).
(1c) When a man trusts in his own good works (or his own self-righteousness or goodness), he falsely believes his wages (or reward) are not credited to him by God as a gift, but as an obligation (that is, he mistakenly believes he can earn eternal life as a reward for the good things he says and does).
(2b) But the truth is that when a man does not trust in his own good works (or his own self-righteousness or goodness), but instead trusts in God who justifies the wicked through the good work Jesus accomplished through the crucifixion, this trust in God is credited to him by God as righteousness.(3c) The Jewish moral Law, which includes the 10 commandments, raises awareness of how wrong our sins are, but this knowledge is powerless to deliver us from the temptation to commit the sins that we agree are wrong to commit.(4c) We cannot deliver ourselves from the power of our desire to sin and earn God’s forgiveness through good works (e.g., through avoiding temptation and saying and doing good things).(5c) Eternal life is a gift we can receive but not a reward we can earn.(6c) We cannot deliver ourselves from sin and earn eternal life as a reward by working for it (i.e. resisting temptation and saying and doing good things).(7c) Genuine saving faith is impossible without repentance.(8c) Those who repent will do good works, because a change of attitude results in a change of action. (9c) Only those who preserver in repenting and trusting God until the day of their physical death will remain in possession of the gift of eternal life.(10c) Only he who continues to do good works until the day of his physical death shows that he still has this gift of eternal life.
(11c) Faith is only as good as the object in which it is placed.
(12c) A Christian should put his faith (or trust) in what Christ did for him, rather than in what he does for Christ, in order to receive eternal life.
(13c) Repentance is a change of mind or attitude; it is not a change of action, but it does result in a change in our words and deeds.
(14c) Faith is trust in God; it is not what we say or do, but it does cause us to speak and act in certain ways that shows we trust God.
(15c) Faith and repentance are like two sides of the same coin; you cannot have one without the other.
therefore(20b) What St. Paul was saying is that doing good works is not what causes God to give us the gift of eternal life.and(21b) However, everyone who does receive the gift of eternal life will do good works (i.e., he will show he has the gift by what he says and does).
S
Socrates4Jesus
Guest
You question is, in what should we persevere? The answer is, i’m sure you agree, repentance and faith. As we agreed in another discussion thread, repentance and faith (if they are genuine) result in a desire to change one’s actions. If a person who has sincerely repented and trusted God he will change what he says and does, unless, of course, something or someone prevents him. So, yes, we should persevere in repentance, faith and good works.
That we should persevere is a fact on which you and i agree. That this perseverance in good works is what causes a person to receive and keep eternal life is something we should discuss. Before i accept your interpretation of what St. Paul is saying in Romans 2:7, i want to be sure of one thing: Whether or not you are confusing correlation with causation. Let me explain:
I’m sure you agree that two events can occur together without one event causing the other. For example, if i were to say
(S1) Children who persevere in pleasing their parents receive birthday gifts on their birthdays.
then someone who is a foreigner to the U.S. who has never celebrated a birthday might mistakenly think i was saying
(S2) If children persevere in pleasing their parents, then their parents will give them birthday gifts.
or (S3) Parents give birthday gifts to their children because they persevere in pleasing them.
The visitor to our country who is unfamiliar with the cultural practice of celebrating a child’s birthday might in error conclude from what i said in (S1) that birthday gifts are actually birthday rewards for good behavior. That is, he might incorrectly surmise that good behavior is what causes a parents to give birthday gifts to their sons and daughters.
The truth, however, is this:
(S4) Parents give birthday gifts to their children because they love them, not because they do anything to earn them as rewards; and children who are loved by their parents return the love by persevering in pleasing them.
The difference between interpretation (S2) and and interpretation (S4) is that (S2) mistakenly asserts that (S1) shows a causal relationship between being good and receiving birthday gifts. In contrast, (S4) does not make this mistake, but correctly asserts that their is a correlation between parents loving their children by giving birthday gifts and children loving their parents in return.
Now, consider Romans 2:7, which states:
(R1) To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.
You, Michael, appear to hold that i should interpret the passage to say:
(R2) If a person persists in doing good, then God will give him eternal life.
or(R3) God will give eternal life to a person because the person persists in doing good.
However, there is a different interpretation of Romans 2:7, which is (R4) God give eternal life to His children because He loves them, not because they do anything to earn eternal life as a reward; and God’s children who are loved by Him return the love by persevering in pleasing Him.
Please tell me, Michael, why you believe (R2) is the correct interpretation of Romans 2:7 and (R4) is the incorrect interpretation of the passage.
T
Tom
Guest
I just tried to break it down into smaller segments. My simple mind finds it easier that way. Hopefully it’s easier to address also. I find, as I tried to point out, most errors are based and laced with truth.Wow, Tom! You have posted a lot for me to consider. It might take awhile, but i’ll thoughtfully read it all. I’ll post a reply once i take it all in.
Thank you.
M
mikeledes
Guest
From what I gather, you still seem to be misunderstanding the Catholic understanding of eternal life. Eternal life in Romans 2:7 is the equivalent of inheriting the kingdom of God, the consummation of our present participation in the life of God through grace. The words of this verse are clear and are reaffirmed in other parts of the Bible, so it’s not some kind of “fluke” or hypothetical argument unique to Romans. God has promised the possession of this inheritance to those who persevere in doing good.
Revelation 2:26
26To him who overcomes and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations— (NIV)
26And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations (KJV)
Revelation 20:7 (KJV)
7He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son
Failure to do good is sin. Not all Christians will persevere to the end.
God Bless,
Michael
T
Tom
Guest
Again my problem is the false dichotomy. Your list sounds like if I do A, I must be violating B. it simply isn’t true. In fact it leads to a terrible misunderstanding. To make it reasonable, I’d have to remove the doubt. Here’s a re-write of (1c):
(1c) When a man trusts in his own good works, self-righteousness, or goodness, at the exclusion of his faith, he falsely believes his wages (or reward) are not credited to him by God as a gift, but as an obligation (that is, he mistakenly believes he can earn eternal life as a reward for the good things he says and does).
[/INDENT]
T
Tom
Guest
Soc, have you ever researched the Catholic Church’s teraching on this?
Go to:scborromeo.org/ccc.htm and under the searxh type works. There’s plenty to read and it’s all true, we don’t need to re-write it.
My basic knee jerk reaction to the “no works” attitude is that it replaces the Word of God with the word of man. You cannot separate the works God calls us to do from the faith we have in God.
I firmly believe God uses each of us in His divine plan. We aren’t simply robots following a script. He gives us free will and knowledge of Him. He then asks us to follow His instructions willfully. We chose to accept Him or reject Him. In His divine providence He guides us toward Him, but He does not force us. It is His plan that we choose freely.
To quote the Catechism:
www.scborromeo.org:
306 God is the sovereign master of his plan. But to carry it out he also makes use of his creatures’ co-operation. This use is not a sign of weakness, but rather a token of almighty God’s greatness and goodness. For God grants his creatures not only their existence, but also the dignity of acting on their own, of being causes and principles for each other, and thus of co-operating in the accomplishment of his plan.
307 To human beings God even gives the power of freely sharing in his providence by entrusting them with the responsibility of “subduing” the earth and having dominion over it.168 God thus enables men to be intelligent and free causes in order to complete the work of creation, to perfect its harmony for their own good and that of their neighbors. Though often unconscious collaborators with God’s will, they can also enter deliberately into the divine plan by their actions, their prayers and their sufferings.169 They then fully become “God’s fellow workers” and co-workers for his kingdom.170
308 The truth that God is at work in all the actions of his creatures is inseparable from faith in God the Creator. God is the first cause who operates in and through secondary causes: "For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure."171 Far from diminishing the creature’s dignity, this truth enhances it. Drawn from nothingness by God’s power, wisdom and goodness, it can do nothing if it is cut off from its origin, for "without a Creator the creature vanishes."172 Still less can a creature attain its ultimate end without the help of God’s grace.173
It’s much better to read all this in context than to cut and paste.
Go to:scborromeo.org/ccc.htm and under the searxh type works. There’s plenty to read and it’s all true, we don’t need to re-write it.
My basic knee jerk reaction to the “no works” attitude is that it replaces the Word of God with the word of man. You cannot separate the works God calls us to do from the faith we have in God.
I firmly believe God uses each of us in His divine plan. We aren’t simply robots following a script. He gives us free will and knowledge of Him. He then asks us to follow His instructions willfully. We chose to accept Him or reject Him. In His divine providence He guides us toward Him, but He does not force us. It is His plan that we choose freely.
To quote the Catechism:
www.scborromeo.org:
306 God is the sovereign master of his plan. But to carry it out he also makes use of his creatures’ co-operation. This use is not a sign of weakness, but rather a token of almighty God’s greatness and goodness. For God grants his creatures not only their existence, but also the dignity of acting on their own, of being causes and principles for each other, and thus of co-operating in the accomplishment of his plan.
307 To human beings God even gives the power of freely sharing in his providence by entrusting them with the responsibility of “subduing” the earth and having dominion over it.168 God thus enables men to be intelligent and free causes in order to complete the work of creation, to perfect its harmony for their own good and that of their neighbors. Though often unconscious collaborators with God’s will, they can also enter deliberately into the divine plan by their actions, their prayers and their sufferings.169 They then fully become “God’s fellow workers” and co-workers for his kingdom.170
308 The truth that God is at work in all the actions of his creatures is inseparable from faith in God the Creator. God is the first cause who operates in and through secondary causes: "For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure."171 Far from diminishing the creature’s dignity, this truth enhances it. Drawn from nothingness by God’s power, wisdom and goodness, it can do nothing if it is cut off from its origin, for "without a Creator the creature vanishes."172 Still less can a creature attain its ultimate end without the help of God’s grace.173
It’s much better to read all this in context than to cut and paste.
S
Socrates4Jesus
Guest
Thanks for sticking with the dialog, Michael.
Please answer three questions regarding the passages you quoted from Revelation:
*]Do you believe there are degrees of punishment in hell and degrees of reward in heaven?
*]Do you think these passages are speaking about the rewards you hope to receive in eternity or about the eternity you hope to receive as a reward?
*]What is the difference between a gift and a reward?
S
Socrates4Jesus
Guest
Tom:
Please tell me, what do you think of the two interpretations of Romans 2:6-10? The passage states
*God “will give to each person according to what he has done.” To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.*The passage is ambiguous, i think you might agree, for Romans 2:7 can be interpreted to mean
(R3) God gives eternal life to his children as a gift because they continue to do good works that please Him.
or it can be interpreted to mean(R4) God gives eternal life to His children as a gift because He loves them, not because they do anything to earn eternal life as a reward; and God’s children who are loved by Him return His love by continuing to do good works that please Him.In interpretation (R3) doing good works is believed to be one of the causes of receiving the gift of eternal life. In interpretation (R4) doing good works is believed be be in correlation with receiving the gift of eternal life, but not a cause of receiving this gift.
Now, Michael quoted passages in Revelation about those who receive a reward for the good works they do; but these passages do not mention the gift of eternal life, much less say the gift is earned by doing good works. So, i’m not yet convinced his interpretation (R3) is the correct one.
I’m asking you to help me make a decision, Tom. What interpretation do you believe is correct, (R3) or (R4), and why do you believe this?
T
Tom
Guest
The problem I have with all of the interpretations is they don’t take into account our acceptance, our free will. Yes, God offers us all eternal life because He loves us all. He doesn’t stop loving you if you reject Him, in fact He offers more of His graces, that’s what true love is. He seeks that one lost sheep.
(R3) God gives eternal life to his children as a gift because they continue to do good works that please Him.
God knows why we do things, He knows we behave not to get a reward, but because we love Him, John 14,15; 15,10.
or it can be interpreted to mean
(R4) God gives eternal life to His children as a gift because He loves them, not because they do anything to earn eternal life as a reward; and God’s children who are loved by Him return His love by continuing to do good works that please Him.
What about those from chapter 1? They perverted Gods rules. Does God not love them anymore? If “God gives eternal life to His children as a gift because He loves them” then even those who disobey would have eternal life. I disagree with R4 because it implies that if you don’t follow the rules, God will no longer love you, absolutely incorrect.
(R3) God gives eternal life to his children as a gift because they continue to do good works that please Him.
God knows why we do things, He knows we behave not to get a reward, but because we love Him, John 14,15; 15,10.
or it can be interpreted to mean
(R4) God gives eternal life to His children as a gift because He loves them, not because they do anything to earn eternal life as a reward; and God’s children who are loved by Him return His love by continuing to do good works that please Him.
What about those from chapter 1? They perverted Gods rules. Does God not love them anymore? If “God gives eternal life to His children as a gift because He loves them” then even those who disobey would have eternal life. I disagree with R4 because it implies that if you don’t follow the rules, God will no longer love you, absolutely incorrect.
T
Tom
Guest
Romans 2,7 is in reference to Romans chapter 1, in which people who knew God, turned away (became heathens) from the truth and perverted the truth (Rm 1,25) to convince themselves that their immoral (mainly homosexual, see Rm 1,26 - 27) behavior was acceptable.
In Chapter 2 he begins by censuring the Jewish leaders who boast of following the Law, yet follow it only in word, and not in their actions. He continues on to describe who the true “Jews” are. Keeping in mind that the Christians at that time, in Pauls’ words are the true Jews. The Jewish leaders, those who know God, yet say and don’t do, are condemned (Rm 2,1 - 5)
In Chapter 2 he begins by censuring the Jewish leaders who boast of following the Law, yet follow it only in word, and not in their actions. He continues on to describe who the true “Jews” are. Keeping in mind that the Christians at that time, in Pauls’ words are the true Jews. The Jewish leaders, those who know God, yet say and don’t do, are condemned (Rm 2,1 - 5)
T
Tom
Guest
You seem to have a fixation on why we do good works. Do we have to? The problem with this type of logic is it expresses or emphasizes the bare minimum we need to do. When you love God you’re not interested in the minimum, you want to give it all.
I know when I see a hungry begger on the street, I can’t just pass by, I go to a fast food store and buy him food (I never give money). All I can hear in my head is “what soever you do to the least of my brothers, that you do unto me.” I don’t try to analyze why. I never tell anyone about it, I’m not trying to “look good”, most people would think I’m crazy, I’m crazy, I’m crazy, I’m… oh, sorry.
In Matthew chapter 19, when a man asks Jesus what does he need to do to have everlasting life does Jesus say “just have faith”? or “just believe”?
Matthew 19,16 And behold one came and said to him: Good master, what good shall I do that I may have life everlasting? 17 Who said to him: Why asketh thou me concerning good? One is good, God. But if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. 18 He said to him: Which? And Jesus said: Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness. 19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. 20 The young man saith to him: All these I have kept from my youth, what is yet wanting to me?
(No Jesus tells him, get off your butt and do something!! LOL)
21 Jesus saith to him: If thou wilt be perfect, go sell what thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come follow me. 22 And when the young man had heard this word, he went away sad: for he had great possessions.
23 Then Jesus said to his disciples: Amen, I say to you, that a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. 24 And again I say to you: It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of heaven. 25 And when they had heard this, the disciples wondered very much, saying: Who then can be saved?
26 And Jesus beholding, said to them: With men this is impossible: but with God all things are possible. 27 Then Peter answering, said to him: Behold we have left all things, and have followed thee: what therefore shall we have? 28 And Jesus said to them: Amen, I say to you, that you, who have followed me, in the regeneration, when the Son of man shall sit on the seat of his majesty, you also shall sit on twelve seats judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And every one that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands for my name’s sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall possess life everlasting. 30 And many that are first, shall be last: and the last shall be first.
I know when I see a hungry begger on the street, I can’t just pass by, I go to a fast food store and buy him food (I never give money). All I can hear in my head is “what soever you do to the least of my brothers, that you do unto me.” I don’t try to analyze why. I never tell anyone about it, I’m not trying to “look good”, most people would think I’m crazy, I’m crazy, I’m crazy, I’m… oh, sorry.
In Matthew chapter 19, when a man asks Jesus what does he need to do to have everlasting life does Jesus say “just have faith”? or “just believe”?
Matthew 19,16 And behold one came and said to him: Good master, what good shall I do that I may have life everlasting? 17 Who said to him: Why asketh thou me concerning good? One is good, God. But if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. 18 He said to him: Which? And Jesus said: Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness. 19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. 20 The young man saith to him: All these I have kept from my youth, what is yet wanting to me?
(No Jesus tells him, get off your butt and do something!! LOL)
21 Jesus saith to him: If thou wilt be perfect, go sell what thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come follow me. 22 And when the young man had heard this word, he went away sad: for he had great possessions.
23 Then Jesus said to his disciples: Amen, I say to you, that a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. 24 And again I say to you: It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of heaven. 25 And when they had heard this, the disciples wondered very much, saying: Who then can be saved?
26 And Jesus beholding, said to them: With men this is impossible: but with God all things are possible. 27 Then Peter answering, said to him: Behold we have left all things, and have followed thee: what therefore shall we have? 28 And Jesus said to them: Amen, I say to you, that you, who have followed me, in the regeneration, when the Son of man shall sit on the seat of his majesty, you also shall sit on twelve seats judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And every one that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands for my name’s sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall possess life everlasting. 30 And many that are first, shall be last: and the last shall be first.
M
mikeledes
Guest
Again, it seems that we are too fixated on Romans 2 and ignoring other passages that say the same thing (i.e. Galatians 6:7-9).
God Bless,
Michael
M
mikeledes
Guest
Thanks for sticking with the dialog, Michael.
Please answer three questions regarding the passages you quoted from Revelation:
*]Do you believe there are degrees of punishment in hell and degrees of reward in heaven?
*]Do you think these passages are speaking about the rewards you hope to receive in eternity or about the eternity you hope to receive as a reward?
*]What is the difference between a gift and a reward?
What are the “things” Revelation 21:7 talking about. Let’s look at the context.
Revelation 21-1-6
**1Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea.
2And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband.
3And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them[a],
4and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away.”
5And He who sits on the throne said, "Behold, I am making all things new " And He said, “Write, for these words are faithful and true.”
6Then He said to me, "It is done I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost. **
Can a person be saved and not inherit these things, Soc? Or are these “things” integral and insperable aspects of salvation? What does Jesus mean when He says those that persevere to the end will be saved? He does not say those who persevere to the end will get a collection of eternal goodie bags. He says “saved.”
God Bless,
Michael
- Status