The Truth: We Are Saved By Faith Alone

[kaycee]

No, because they are lack of love and many other reasons.
If they don’t know Christ or believe in Christ, what is the point of casting out demons in His Name.

Matt 7:22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

They never trusted Christ alone for salvation.

 

[kaycee]

Kaycee, I think you misunderstood my post. Try reading it again. I never said that salvation is based on what we do. I certainly never even implied that salvation is something that God owes us. And I never once talked about keeping the mosiac law as a pre-requisite for anything.

You opened with a comment on my post as follows:

But that is not really fair to what I said. You have to read what I said before I listed those 3 verses, which was,

The colon ( :

Ok, sorry, I must be mixing up arguments from all the various posters

 

[kaycee]

You make a great point here. Many do not know that Catholicism way back in 529 AD at the council of Orange dealt with works apart from God’s grace…

CANON 18. That grace is not preceded by merit. Recompense is due to good works if they are performed; but grace, to which we have no claim, precedes them, to enable them to be done.

CANON 19. That a man can be saved only when God shows mercy. Human nature, even though it remained in that sound state in which it was created, could be no means save itself, without the assistance of the Creator; hence since man cannot safe- guard his salvation without the grace of God, which is a gift, how will he be able to restore what he has lost without the grace of God?

CANON 20. That a man can do no good without God. God does much that is good in a man that the man does not do; but a man does nothing good for which God is not responsible, so as to let him do it.

These canons by the council of Orange 529 AD are directly addressing the false idea of pelagianism which is the false theological idea that there wa no original sin and that we can choose good without God’s grace first giving us that ability.

I don’t believe most protestants believe that RC’s think its works alone. We object to maintaining salvation by works.

If any one saith, that the good works of the one that is justified are in such manner the gifts of God, that they are not also the good merits of him that is justified, by the good works which he performs through the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ, whose living member he is, and does not truly merit increase in grace, eternal life, and the attainment of eternal life, if so be, that he depart in grace, and an increase in glory, let him be anathema (The Canons and Decrees of the Council of Trent. Found in Philip Schaff, The Creeds of Christendom (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1910), Decree on Justification, Chapter VII, Canons X, XXXII).

 

[Bishopite]

I don’t believe most protestants believe that RC’s think its works alone. We object to maintaining salvation by works.

If any one saith, that the good works of the one that is justified are in such manner the gifts of God, that they are not also the good merits of him that is justified, by the good works which he performs through the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ, whose living member he is, and does not truly merit increase in grace, eternal life, and the attainment of eternal life, if so be, that he depart in grace, and an increase in glory, let him be anathema (The Canons and Decrees of the Council of Trent. Found in Philip Schaff, The Creeds of Christendom (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1910), Decree on Justification, Chapter VII, Canons X, XXXII).

Salvation is NOT punctiliar only and Trent is correct; after we are given God’s grace we MUST cooperate with His grace and it is WE who are doing them in cooperation with God’s grace. Mt 25:34-40 the sheep and goats describes those who “did” for the love of God and those who “did” not (verses 41-46) for the love of God.

Do you not know that synergism which IS cooperation with grace IS the scriptural application? Monergism is not so of course we have to work out our salvation as Paul says (Phil 2:12). The work we do is done with the grace God gives us so that we can’t claim it as our own. St. Augustine said…When God crowns our merits He crowns His own merits in us. Augustine condemned pelagianism as he was an orthodox Catholic Bishop in the fourth century, so for Trent to pronounce its decrees against the reformers really was nothing new.

Charles Ryrie a fundamentalist Baptist theologian in his Ryrie study bible says this in his footnotes about James 2:24 and faith and works…

“Unproductive faith cannot save, because it is not geniune faith. Faith and works are like a two-coupon ticket to heaven. The coupon of works is not good for passage, and the coupon of faith in not valid if detached from works.” (Charles Ryrie NAS study bible page 1860)

Notice that Ryrie is admitting that faith and works ARE required for salvation; without works ones faith is non-geniune faith—with works it is complete.

Ryries two-coupon ticket to heaven means if one only has works without faith without then that person is a coupon short of going to heaven, if a person has faith without works then that person is a coupon short of going to heaven.

 

[SFLCatholic]

So, a person with no works, is in essence giving evidence that God’s grace is not present, and thus that it is unlikely that they are truly saved for if they were saved they would show that God’s grace was present in their lives by their works.

My point exactly. You just re-phrased James understanding.

“So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead” James 2:17

 

[Grace_Seeker]

My point exactly. You just re-phrased James understanding.

“So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead” James 2:17

Not surprising, since I would like to think of myself as having neither a protestant nor a catholic view on this matter, but merely a biblical view. The problem is when we try to emphasize one to the total exclusion of the other.

 

[redmars3000]

I think a better scenario would be for you to prove that the Roman church did exist in the 4th century. You can’t do it, period.

Edict of Milan. 314 AD.

 

[JFonseka]

Edict of Milan. 314 AD.

Hahaha, I just love it when this happens. Oh dear. Anyways, yea…you know your history well don’t you

 

[Maui71]

Edict of Milan. 314 AD.

393 A.D. at the Synod of Hippo when the bible became cannon.

Council of Nicaea I A.D. 325

A.D. 381 Council of Constantinople I

Now, are trying to separate the Roman / Latin Rite as a separate church?

“The bishop of the old Roman capital, the **Pope of Rome, though not present at all of the councils, was considered to be president of the council and thus called “First Among Equals” until the great schism of 1054. **One of the decisions made by the second council and supported by later councils was that the bishop of Constantinople, since Constantinople was the New Rome, should be given the honor of second in rank. Later, because of the split with Rome, the honor of presiding over these general councils was transferred to the Patriarch of Constantinople who was also given the title, “First Among Equals”, reflecting both his administrative leadership and his spiritual equality. He is not, however, considered to be the head or leader of the church.”
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Orthodox_Church

 

[SFLCatholic]

Not surprising, since I would like to think of myself as having neither a protestant nor a catholic view on this matter, but merely a biblical view. The problem is when we try to emphasize one to the total exclusion of the other.

OK. Then lets also look at James 2:17 in light of Gal 6:4.

Its essentially the same. Both say that you need works to justify faith. Regardless if you put faith before or after works. Its a symbiotic relationship.

An analogy would be that you can’t have salvation without the interaction of Jesus. You can’t automatically declare yourself saved without proclaiming a faith in Jesus. And Jesus commands that we fulfill His laws. This is also re-confirmed throughout the Acts and Paul’s Letters.

I think we both agree on this. And unfortunately, this argument, as has been proven way before you and I discussed it, can never be fully answered to our mutual stipulation.

It’s always going to be a circular argument until we are both on the same side of the Tiber. When are you going to swim over?

As a Pastor, how can you have a merely Biblical view? It would seem to me that if you *really *had this, you would be a Catholic priest.

 

[redmars3000]

Hahaha, I just love it when this happens. Oh dear. Anyways, yea…you know your history well don’t you

Is that comment directed at me or the original poster?

 

[Grace_Seeker]

OK. Then lets also look at James 2:17 in light of Gal 6:4.

Its essentially the same. Both say that you need works to justify faith. Regardless if you put faith before or after works. Its a symbiotic relationship.

An analogy would be that you can’t have salvation without the interaction of Jesus. You can’t automatically declare yourself saved without proclaiming a faith in Jesus. And Jesus commands that we fulfill His laws. This is also re-confirmed throughout the Acts and Paul’s Letters.

I think we both agree on this. And unfortunately, this argument, as has been proven way before you and I discussed it, can never be fully answered to our mutual stipulation.

It’s always going to be a circular argument until we are both on the same side of the Tiber. When are you going to swim over?

As a Pastor, how can you have a merely Biblical view? It would seem to me that if you *really *had this, you would be a Catholic priest.

So, are you objecting to my view of faith and works and the interrelatedness between them or agreeing with it? I can’t really tell.

As to your last question, I am sure it would seem to you that way. But, is there something not Biblical about the view I presented?

 

[jabelltulsa]

You have bought into the the propaganda that has consumed you and scripture even warns of that but you have obviously traded in much of scripture for what you think is the only institution where the sacrements are truly celebrated. You can go shooting off your mouth about me not knowing the faith that I belonged to for decades, but the truth is everything comes to us from Jesus and not the obedience of the Catholic church. I know plenty about the CC. Probably more than 90% of the faithful that attend mass every Sunday. That is precisely why I left and thank God for it.

J-Bells “Lutheran” fiancee.

If everyone here is so, brainwashed and blindly aligned (my term) to the Catholic Church. What is your goal here. Why come on this thread and denounce what others so fervently believe?

I have said before on this site, and will say again here, there is no definitive proof of what anyone believes in relation to Christ. Not one single person can prove Christ was real or that Christ was the son of God or that God is Real or that the Scripture is the Divinely inspired work of God. We believe this by FAITH and Faith alone. The Catholic Church has a rich history and whether that is a history divinely set down by God himself or people being “Blindly Lead” what concern is it to you, and what makes your Faith more real or more true then that of a “Roman Catholic”; nothing. You are simply a man who believes by Faith as are all the people here. We, and you, simply believe in something different. I am not arguing the history of the Church because it would be pointless since you hold no value in the history of the Church. I do not mind that you don’t believe in Catholicism or that you feel moved to express you lack of believe. However, no matter what you believe it is very unkind and inappropriate to ATTACK with no cause the Faith of others. Please, check yourself and refrain from bashing that which does not bash you. My Fiancee’s priest has a very good motto or thought the Church gains nothing by taking the “Bible” and the “Truth” and striking people with it. We must be kind in dealing with people who do not believe what we believe or who do not understand what we believe. I think this would be a very GOOD thing for you to take to heart. If you are going to have such strong opinions place them kindly and courteously on those who do not hold the same belief. We must be kind to people and remember. “we all believe by Faith.” “no one is Scientifically, Definitively, Right.” “Heaven, God and Salvation are not a FACT, they are a Hope, a Belief, a Faith in something greater then ourselves.”

 

[Bishopite]

Not surprising, since I would like to think of myself as having neither a protestant nor a catholic view on this matter, but merely a biblical view. The problem is when we try to emphasize one to the total exclusion of the other.

So works done after receiving God’s grace and being justified aren’t required?

 

[Cavbiker]

You have bought into the the propaganda that has consumed you and scripture even warns of that but you have obviously traded in much of scripture for what you think is the only institution where the sacrements are truly celebrated. You can go shooting off your mouth about me not knowing the faith that I belonged to for decades, but the truth is everything comes to us from Jesus and not the obedience of the Catholic church. I know plenty about the CC. Probably more than 90% of the faithful that attend mass every Sunday. That is precisely why I left and thank God for it.

I read a fortune cookie once that said : Only a fool argues with a fool

 

[Jaypeeto4]

In my evangelical Presbyterian days,
we talked about Justification as a legal (forensic) act,
but that Justification was followed by a process
of Sanctification which we regarded as entirely separate
from Justification.

Catholics on the other hand see Justification and Sanctification as “one” thing, albeit a compound “one” thing. We see sanctification as part of Justification and inseparable from it.
In other words, when God “saves” us, he doesn’t merely
legally “justify” us but at the very same time imparts his
Sanctifying Spirit into us so that the two are really One Thing.

Jaypeeto4
+JMJ+

 

[Teeliumtrozzle]

Don’t allow anyone or any church tell you that you need to do good works to win your way to Heaven. It is a lie. Scripture screams that we are saved by our faith in Christ and that works are the results of our faith, not the saving mechanism. Jesus said to accept Heaven like a child accepts a gift. That doesn’t mean going to mass everyday and going to confession once a week is going to buy your ticket to Heaven because it won’t. You won’t find Jesus through the mazes of the Roman Catholic church. You will find him by reading and studying Scripture and praying to him and seeking him in all that you do. The church can’t save you, Mary can’t save you, only faith in jesus Christ can save you no matter how much of a sinner or how little of a sinner you are!

For your information, Catholics read the Bible and study Sacred Scriptures just as much as everyone else.In fact, Im only 13 and I’ve read almost the whole Bible.I do not deny that we are saved by faith, but it is neccesary to prove our faith by doing good deeds-

Rom. 2:6- For at the end of time, every man shall be judged according to his deeds.

We are not trying to ‘buy a ticket to heaven’, we are trying to please God.And we never said Mary could ‘save us’-she can pray for us and protect us.(Shes the Mother of God, do not forget that!)And the Roman Catholic church is not a maze, its a perfectly biblical and sensible system of beliefs.

I RESPECTyour Demonition, and you should respect mine.God bless and help you.

 

[jabelltulsa]

Don’t allow anyone or any church tell you that you need to do good works to win your way to Heaven. It is a lie. Scripture screams that we are saved by our faith in Christ and that works are the results of our faith, not the saving mechanism. Jesus said to accept Heaven like a child accepts a gift. That doesn’t mean going to mass everyday and going to confession once a week is going to buy your ticket to Heaven because it won’t. You won’t find Jesus through the mazes of the Roman Catholic church. You will find him by reading and studying Scripture and praying to him and seeking him in all that you do. The church can’t save you, Mary can’t save you, only faith in jesus Christ can save you no matter how much of a sinner or how little of a sinner you are!

J-Bells Fiancee

I have not had the bad experience with the Church that you seem to have had, I do not have a bad taste in my mouth left by Rome and her mazes.

I wonder what it is that cause you to say “That doesn’t mean going to mass everyday and going to confession once a week is going to buy your ticket to Heaven” do you believe the Roman Catholic Church believes this?

Do you believe they believe you “buy” your way into heaven?

I believe Christ called us to Faith and to Works. I believe they are both a requirement. a belief I hold from my protestant upbringing a belief that I carry with me into the Roman Catholic Church a belief that I have been better able to fully realize within the Roman Catholic Church.

I have not found the things you express to be true of the Roman Catholic Church and wonder what the difference in our experience is?

Do you believe there is salvation within the Roman Catholic Church.

Why or why not?

 

[Grace_Seeker]

So works done after receiving God’s grace and being justified aren’t required?

What does Matthew 25 teach on that? Works are most certainly required. They are the evidence of our faith. They don’t cause our faith, they grow out of our faith. Being in relationship to the livnig God requires a living faith. As James says, faith without works is dead, and dead faith gets us nowhere. But works before faith is meaningless, it is like trying to earn one’s way to heaven when it is Christ’s work on the cross that is the instrument of our salvation.

The problem some seem to have is that of trying to take a mesage that was intended as practicle advice for believers on how to live out their faith, and draw conclusions from it as to how people are saved. Certainly the theif on the cross was saved, but didn’'t do any works of the nature that James was referring to. But James wasn’t addressing the thief on the cross either.

So, can one have faith without works? If one is in the midst of dying wihen one comes to faith, it is not necessary nor expected. Faith alone is all that is absolutely needed. But if you got enough life left in you to put a smile on your face, then we are expected to show joy inside of us with our life, and most certainly works arising from that faith are expected, and without it is evidence that you don’t really have a living faith, and thus I would hazard to say you also don’t have saving faith.

 

[RobHom]

I have read many of these posts…and frankly, I think many are somewhat confused. Here’s why:

If you believe that the Bible is the inerrant word of God, then you MUST accept all that is presented within the Bible at its face value.

You CANNOT pick and choose that which pleases you and discard that which does not please you.

If you have the faith to be “saved” then you are obligated to accept the admonitions in James… that “faith without works is dead”.

No, you cannot get into heaven by works alone, but neither can you get into heaven on faith alone. They are linked inseparably.

The Bible is not the menu at Burger King. You cannot have it your way. It is not yours to pick or choose from. Its all or none.

I think also that many who decry the premise of “works” to prove faith…know little of what the works are. Maybe if they were to understand those works…they would find it to be more than likely a non-issue…

Not to be combative, but…I find that often times, those that oppose the teachings of the Holy Roman Catholic Church do so as simply a method to “justify their existence”, because without those “differences” they would simply be Catholics.