The Truth: We Are Saved By Faith Alone

[Idahown]

I total agree with your (2 Peter 1:4) quote. You missed my point. I was not saying there were different “rooms” in heaven, but that there are specific Bible reference (like the James’ references you disregarded), and others about purgatory:

Rev 21:27 nothing unclean shall enter heaven
1 Jn 5:16-17 degrees of sins distinguished
2 Sam 12:13-14 David, though forgiven, still punished for sin
mt 5:26 you will not be released until paid last penny
1 Pet 3:18-20; 4:6 Jesus preached to the spirits in prison

 

[Grace_Seeker]

I total agree with your (2 Peter 1:4) quote. You missed my point. I was not saying there were different “rooms” in heaven, but that there are specific Bible reference (like the James’ references you disregarded), and others about purgatory:

Ah, you’re talking about purgatory. I wasn’t. I was responding to this part of what you said specifically:

There is an obvious difference (and Justness) between a murderer who has found Jesus (and is saved) and Mother Theresa.

The idea that a murderer is more saved or less just than Mother Theresa ignores the fact that once God saves us, that we have a new and clean start. Now, subsequent to that, one may then do good works, or commit sins that might bring about a differentation between how the individuals experience heaven, but their justness before God is the same. The sanctification is a completely different story.

There is only one level of justness. Justness is a pass/fail test, no grading on the curve. You are either seen as just by God and worthy of heaven or you are not. The righteousness we have on our own, even the merits of Mother Theresa, are not enough to “earn” us heaven. And the sins of the most vile murderer are not enough to negate Christ’s righteousness that is credited to us. So, we all get in the same, and therefore are equally just before God. We stand not in our own righteousness (or I should say sinfulness, for that is all we have to offer), but in Christ’s.

 

[Idahown]

Grace Seeker,

1. Who said anything about “more saved?”
2. I am very impressed in your ability to explain these things as eloquently as you do; while ignoring each time the cited scriptures:

Revelation 21:27 nothing unclean shall enter heaven

1 John 5:16-17 degrees of sins distinguished

2 Samuel 12:13-14 David, though forgiven, still punished for sin

Matthew 5:26 you will not be released until paid last penny

1 Peter 3:18-20; 4:6 Jesus preached to the spirits in prison

p.s. Your misunderstanding is – purgatory is the truth in understanding what happens to Souls that are “saved” but not yet worthy of our Lord.

 

[Grace_Seeker]

Grace Seeker,

1. Who said anything about “more saved?”
2. I am very impressed in your ability to explain these things as eloquently as you do; while ignoring each time the cited scriptures:

Revelation 21:27 nothing unclean shall enter heaven

1 John 5:16-17 degrees of sins distinguished

2 Samuel 12:13-14 David, though forgiven, still punished for sin

Matthew 5:26 you will not be released until paid last penny

1 Peter 3:18-20; 4:6 Jesus preached to the spirits in prison

p.s. Your misunderstanding is – purgatory is the truth in understanding what happens to Souls that are “saved” but not yet worthy of our Lord.

None of us are ever “worthy” of our Lord. But all souls that are saved are equally just – none of us have any of our own, we all have Christ’s credited to us. It matters not whether you are Mother Theresa or a murder. That is the only issue I had with your comparison of Mother Theresa with a murder. So, purgatory is not the issue. Why bring it into the conversation?

But since you want me to reply to those verses here goes:

Revelation 21:27 nothing unclean shall enter heaven – irrelevant to our level of justness before God

1 John 5:16-17 degrees of sins distinguished – irrelevant to our level of justness before God

2 Samuel 12:13-14 David, though forgiven, still punished for sin – irrelevant to our level of justness before God

Matthew 5:26 you will not be released until paid last penny – irrelevant to our level of justness before God

1 Peter 3:18-20; 4:6 Jesus preached to the spirits in prison – irrelevant to our level of justness before God

 

[JIMMY68]

Branden,

Much like yourself, I was raised Catholic. A cradle Catholic to be exact.

I attended Catholic education my whole 12 years. When I left high school, I left the Church. I hardly learned a thing in 12 years of Catholic education. MY FAULT THOUGH - TERRIBLE STUDENT (see, I didn’t blame my parents ;^) ). I was too busy chasing girls and sports…now I’m paying for it in ways I never really wanted to.

I was away for 13 L O N G Y E A R S.

When I rededicated myself back to my faith in Christ, It was just Him and me. I’m the prodigal son. I guess I could’ve ran to the nearest protestant church, but I ran back to a church I still really new nothing about. That was 10 years ago. Why was that?

I consider myself a convert even though I’m not. I have to learn my faith all over again, because I didn’t care to learn it correctly the first time, and every day I learn about our faith I fall deeper and deeper in love with the Church Christ established because I take the time to find out why we believe what we believe.

Shed the laziness, research, ask questions and come to understand. So far in the last 10 years, I’ve compared A LOT of protestant theology to Catholicism and I’ve come out Catholic on every one. Remember I’m learning all this again, this time as an adult interested in Salvation History. Catholic. Period.

Don’t take the short cut, you short change yourself and the gifts of the Church.

You’re in my prayers.
J.

 

[Idahown]

Revelation 21:27 nothing unclean shall enter heaven – irrelevant to our level of justness before God

1 John 5:16-17 degrees of sins distinguished – irrelevant to our level of justness before God

2 Samuel 12:13-14 David, though forgiven, still punished for sin – irrelevant to our level of justness before God

Matthew 5:26 you will not be released until paid last penny – irrelevant to our level of justness before God

1 Peter 3:18-20; 4:6 Jesus preached to the spirits in prison – irrelevant to our level of justness before God

Grace – so eloquently thick,

The thread is: We are saved by faith alone

So in this context, the cited verses are oh so relevant! But if you want to deny the bible and it’s teaching of purgatory, you have that choice.

 

[Grace_Seeker]

I guess I am thick. Because, even if I accepted purgatory, I still wouldn’t see what these verses have to do with how just a person is or is not. Justness, is not a matter of degrees. We either measure up to the glory of God or we fall short of it. We either are righteous before God or we are not.

And the answer is that we are not. Do any of these verses tell you that Mother Theresa is righteous before God?

And we either are declared righteous by God or we are not.
We either have Christ’s righteousness credite to us or we do not.

And the answer is that by grace God sees us as righteous. Do any of these verses tell you that the murder (who is in Christ) is not declared righteous before God?

 

[Grace_Seeker]

What did the early church fathers have to say about purgatory? From the CCC:

St. Clement of Alexandria taught that those who repent on their deathbeds, and do not have time to do works of penance in this life, will yet be sanctified in the next by purifying fire. St. Augustine, in his commentary on the Psalms, asks God to purify him in this life so that it will not be necessary for him after death to undergo the cleansing fire.

Purgatory is about sanctification, not justification. It is only for people who have already been saved, thogh not necessariy made holy. Justification is a light switch, it is either off or on. Sanctification is the wattage in the bulb. Yes, Mother Theresa’s light shines brighter, but it is no more on than that of a save murder who light burns however dimly, but is still producing light.

 

[Bishopite]

**Grace Seeker;**2559079]I guess I am thick. Because, even if I accepted purgatory, I still wouldn’t see what these verses have to do with how just a person is or is not. Justness, is not a matter of degrees. We either measure up to the glory of God or we fall short of it. We either are righteous before God or we are not.

I confess that this is going off of the subject but I’ll say it anyway.
Purgatory isn’t a question about whether one just person is more righteous before God than the other one who is just, not at all. Those who are purged before entering the beatific vision are those who ARE going to heaven. Purgatory is simply the final step of our sanctification. Even Protestants teach that we grow in our sanctification (holiness) as our relationship with Christ grows, so that we aren’t sinless but we do sin less, and they do agree as do you that we are to grow in our faith.
And Protestants teach that the righteousness of Christ is imputed to us, a covering like a blanket over us so that when God sees us He sees the righteousness of Christ. The problem with this belief is that underneath the blanket of Christ ones sins remain so that God doesn’t ontologically change us only in appearance only. This posses a problem with sin and death, for that sin underneath the blanket has to be dealt with somehow, for God doesn’t just ignore sin, therefore what happens to the sin under the blanket of Christ? Well, if it isn’t purged out in this life, then it will be in the next; their is sin in this world but in heaven there is no sin, so something has to happen between death and glory to deal with that sin.
And, Paul mentions a purging in 1 Cor 3:12-15…

“Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw-- each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.”

Notice in this passage Paul is making a human metaphoric reference to gold, silver, precious stones which are the good works of faith we have done in this life. Straw, wood and hay are the works we have done for our own vain glory.
All of these works will be revealed by and tested by the “fire” of God, which is actually His burning love and purgatory is actually an act of love of God.
Notice that the person “will be saved” so he/she is a saved or just person, however he/she will suffer lose, but those in heaven don’t “suffer lose” because in heaven ones soul is complete, so the person is a saved person but not yet in heaven.
And they will be saved but through fire. This is making reference of a purging of ones sins (hay, wood, straw); those sins that we wouldn’t completely repent from and yield over in faith to God. Those sins of hay, straw, wood are what gets purged (purgatory) from our soul so that we can enter heaven because does say in Rev 21:27 that no unclean thing shall enter into heaven.

And since we should stick to sola fide, I believe that you are correct in not believing in the once saved always saved doctrine.

 

[Idahown]

Grace,

You have distorted what I’ve said to meet an argument, for the sake of…

You never claim your beliefs – by using phrases like, “even if I accepted purgatory”. You either do, or you do not – why the ambiguity in what you believe?

I never said a person is “more” just. I appropriately brought purgatory into the equation, as it would equate to the difference between two types (Saint/murderer) of people in just-juxtaposition being saved by Faith alone, and someone like Mother Theresa who no one can make the argument of her obvious works.

After all this discussion, I now realize that you’ve met me full circle. As I am new to CA I have quickly learned, some like you try to be clever and argue for the sake of argument, but really don’t have anything to edify.

1 John 5:16-17 degrees of sins distinguished –
dis·tin·guished –adjective

1. made conspicuous by excellence; noted; eminent; famous: a distinguished scholar.
2. having an air of distinction, dignity, or eminence: a distinguished old gentleman.

Thanks Bishopite! That clarification was great… I’ll get better about not getting off-track

 

[Jaypeeto4]

This debate is quite interesting.
GraceSeeker is closer to the Catholic faith than she realizes.

Still, she is talking about justification as a purely forensic, legal act. Though we are filthy, we are clothed with the robe of Christ’s righteousness. We Catholics know that Christ’s righteousness covers our sins in the eyes of God. Where we differ is in semantics largely.

GraceSeeker and most evangelicals see justification as a legal act and Sanctification as a separate process.

We Catholics see Justification and Sanctification as two sides of the same coin. When Christ covers our Sin, He also infuses the Holy Spirit into our souls to make us New Creatures, partakers of the Divine Nature. In that sense, a saved murderer and Mother Teresa are in the same boat, but Mother Teresa’s good deeds subsequent to her New Birth are NOT good deeds done ON HER OWN but under the impulse of the Holy Spirit. That is why she, or anyone who follows the Holy Spirit fully, receives a higher place in heaven than the former murderer who “accepts salvation through Christ” but does little, in the Holy Spirit, to GROW in the Grace given at his New Birth. Both receive salvation, but both do not receive the same Reward, both do not share the same level of dignity because one walks more fully in the Spirit, led by the Spirit to do so, and the other (hypothetically), does not.

Thus there are different “crowns” in heaven. Just as star differs from star in glory.

Love,
Jaypeeto4
+JMJ+

 

[Grace_Seeker]

This debate is quite interesting.
GraceSeeker is closer to the Catholic faith than she realizes.

Or maybe Protestants shouldn’t all be viewed as being so far off as some think that we are.

IAnd Protestants teach that the righteousness of Christ is imputed to us, a covering like a blanket over us so that when God sees us He sees the righteousness of Christ. The problem with this belief is that underneath the blanket of Christ ones sins remain so that God doesn’t ontologically change us only in appearance only. This poses a problem with sin and death, for that sin underneath the blanket has to be dealt with somehow, for God doesn’t just ignore sin, therefore what happens to the sin under the blanket of Christ? Well, if it isn’t purged out in this life, then it will be in the next; their is sin in this world but in heaven there is no sin, so something has to happen between death and glory to deal with that sin.

Indeed, something happens to that sin, that sin has already been nailed to the cross. Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. I’m sure you’ve heard the line a time or two before.

You and I and all human beings were created for life, eternal life and eternal fellowship with God. Unfortunately, we are stained by sin, Adam’s sin and our own sin, and as St. Paul taught us, “the wages of sin is death”. This is the “sin underneath the blanket” you spoke of. But, because of Christ’s work on the cross, that is not the end of the story.

from the CCC
Christ redeemed mankind “principally by the paschal mystery of His blessed passion, resurrection from the dead, and glorious ascension, whereby, ‘dying, He destroyed our death and, rising, He restored our life’ “ (SC 5)
(*the interior quote is from the Preface for Easter in the Roman Missal)

What I understand the Catholic church teaches with regard to purgatory is that is for the cleansing of all that hinders one from entry into the vision of God. And of course, even after we become Christians, sin is something that we have to deal with and can still separate us from God. But if one is sinless, then there are no hindrances.

from CCC
Implicit in the defined teaching of the Church is the teaching that the death of an individual marks the end of his period of trial. For he is then no longer a pilgrim, and no more will he sin or earn merit. God’s judgment comes upon him. Explicitly defined are the teachings that those who die in grace and in need of no further purification enter heaven promptly after death….

So, at the moment of our justification, though we may have sin in our lives, God declares that he will consider it no more. THERE IS AN ONTOLOGICAL CHANGE – “If then any be in Christ a new creature, the old things are passed away, behold all things are made new” (2 Corinthians 5:17). The is a new man generated within by the grace of the Spirit. (CCC, 279) As I said above:

When God dwells in those who love Him, He changes them. God does not merely regard us in a different light; His love is powerful and transforms those who love Him. In justifying us He causes us to “put on the new nature, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness” (Eph. 4:24).

God truly gives us new life when he justifies us.

Thus it follows that if a person is justified by God, that the hindrances of the sinful nature are taken away and there is a new nature that is put on, one that is created after the likeness of God, that is righteous and holy, and if a person should die at that moment in that state, there would be no need for said person to enter purgatory because there are no hindrances to entry to the vision of God.

(continued below)

 

[Grace_Seeker]

(continued from above)

Mother Teresa’s good deeds subsequent to her New Birth are NOT good deeds done ON HER OWN but under the impulse of the Holy Spirit. That is why she, or anyone who follows the Holy Spirit fully, receives a higher place in heaven than the former murderer who “accepts salvation through Christ” but does little, in the Holy Spirit, to GROW in the Grace given at his New Birth. Both receive salvation, but both do not receive the same Reward, both do not share the same level of dignity because one walks more fully in the Spirit, led by the Spirit to do so, and the other (hypothetically), does not.

Thus there are different “crowns” in heaven. Just as star differs from star in glory.

We are in total agreement. But this is NOT what Idahown was saying:

If I agree to faith alone, you will have to open your heart to purgatory. Because although faith alone might save you. There is an obvious difference (and Justness) between a murderer who has found Jesus (and is saved) and Mother Theresa. Yes God loves us all, but as a Teacher might love all students, they are still graded differently and fairly.

James 2:24 a man is justified by works and not by faith alone
James 2:26 faith without works is dead

And I am certainly not a proponent of the idea that one cannot backslide, so I also have no argument with the biblical idea of the believer being refined like gold, this would be true for both the murderer and Mother Theresa. In doing so, I would expect to see that there is more gold and less dross in Mother Theresa’s life than that of a murderer and that she might have more jewels in her crown.

But, on the issue of the differentiation of justness (that comment which has brought about this extended side trip), it is not a result of the things we have done, for all of that we have done prior to our salvation (good or bad) is but chaff blown away by the wind of the Spirit. And all that remains is us in our nakedness before God, and then God clothes each of us in his righteousness. At that point in time, and maybe only at the two points of birth and our new birth, we are exactly the same before God. What we do after being declared just before God is what differentiates the rewards we receive in heaven.

As a final example I compare one particular murderer with Mother Theresa and as who is more just, St. Paul or Mother Theresa? You see, it is a silly question. There is no difference.

 

[Fisher]

Matthew 7:21, “Not every one that saith unto me, LORD, LORD, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

 

[Fisher]

Matthew 7:22, “Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful Works?”

 

[Idahown]

Matthew 7:21, “Not every one that saith unto me, LORD, LORD, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Great point for this thread! Can I use that one?

 

[Fisher]

John6:38. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

1. And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
2. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

 

[Fisher]

Eph2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

“Knowing that a man is NOT JUSTIFIED BY THE WORKS OF THE LAW, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and NOT BY THE WORKS OF THE LAW: for BY THE WORKS OF THE LAW SHALL NO FLESH BE JUSITIFIED” (Galatians 2:16).

“And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But IF IT BE OF WORKS, THEN IT IS NO MORE GRACE: otherwise work is no more work.”

“I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, THEN CHRIST IS DEAD IN VAIN” (Galatians 2:21).

Whom God hath set forth to be a PROPITIATION through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God” (Romans 3:25).

And he is the PROPITIATION for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world” (1st John 2:2).

“For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have ALL MEN TO BE SAVED, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus” (1st Timothy 2:3-5).

 

[Fisher]

Acts16:28 But Paul cried with a loud voice, saying, Do thyself no harm: for we are all here.

16:29 Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,

30And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? **
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. **

 

[DixiesFinest]

I agree with you that protestants do not agree on this. Being not one who believes in the classical understanding of Sola Fide, I didn’t feel able to speak to whether it implies and leads to OSAS (which I also do not hold). So, in lieu of someone who currently holds those views, I guess you are the closest we got to an authority on the topic. Scary thought, huh?

Very scary thought indeed…the learned protestant is actually Catholic…