The Truth: We Are Saved By Faith Alone

[Maui71]

Hi Fisher,

(I posted parts of this in another post)

James 2:14-26 Faith and Works

14
What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?
15
If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day,
16
and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well,” but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it?
17
So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18
Indeed someone might say, “You have faith and I have works.” Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works.
19
You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble.
20
Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless?
21
Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
22
You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.
23
Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called “the friend of God.”
24
See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
25
And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route?
26
For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

One must look at the context of the scriptures for if one book or letter seems in conflict with another then the interpretation is likely wrong; because the scriptures are not wrong. Works of the Law is a reference to Leviticus and Old Testament temple rules not charitable works of love your neighbor. Further, the earliest Christians those that were ordained by the Apostles themselves, what did they teach before the scriptures were compiled. See, the bible as you know it was not agreed upon till 393 A.D. at the Synod of Hippo (all Catholics by the way). From Christ till the reformation no one believed in sola fidei - faith alone. **That is a Lutheran doctrine that came about 1,500 years later. **. They spoke of works and of confession.

The bible and doctrine must be harmonious like instruments in an orchestra. It is not a sole artist ripping with a lead guitar while the rest of the band strums. No, it is a choir singing in unison. One section must completely support the next. That belief of sola fidei is in complete conflict with many passages and particularly this paragraph in the bible.

I will clarify my point: it’s that one is not saved by works alone or faith alone but that you cannot divorce works from faith or faith from works. That one is saved through Faith and Works because they are opposite sides of the same coin.

So were as faith and works are in complete harmony with the scriptures faith alone is in dissidence.

God bless,

Maui

 

[Maui71]

Had to post in 2 parts Fisher;

Sin: If you are tempted and fall then you are in sin which gives death to your soul.

James 1:13-15
13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted with evil and he himself tempts no one; 14 but each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. 15 Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin; and sin when it is full-grown brings forth death.

Luke 46 -48 46
He told them, "This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 47and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48You are witnesses of these things.

John 20: 20-23
21 (Jesus) said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the holy Spirit. 23 Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.”

Forgiveness of sin comes with contrition; you are not forgiven if you are not heartily sorry for the offense. Because sin is an offense against God and as noted above when fully grown gives death. The only thing sin can kill is your soul. If your soul is killed that means it lost its salvation. God gives salvation freely but you can reject it at any point you commit a grave sin and turn away Gods gift. Thus you have free will. The implication of faith alone that you have no action in salvation rejects almost every parable. A parable is usually a reference to act or to do (work).To say you must act like Lot’s wife a pillar of salt or a tree still and uninvolved with your salvation because Jesus died on the cross thus washing away my past, present and future sins without contrition or fulfilling the whole of the commandments “Love they neighbor as one loves one’s self” is not scriptural. To say faith alone is to affirm the preceding comment. To engage in “Love they neighbor as one loves one’s self” is to work. You cannot love your neighbor and stand still. To say that you don’t have to love your neighbor because I am saved by Jesus on the cross because I am forgiven for it is not scriptural. This is implied by Sola Fidei faith alone saves but if you have faith then you have to work. Because to believe is to love and love is work and action it is active not passive.

It is all one long string of interlaced teachings one is not greater than the other but one is part of a whole.

God bless,

Maui

 

[Bishopite]

Indeed, something happens to that sin, that sin has already been nailed to the cross. Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. I’m sure you’ve heard the line a time or two before.

Yes, I’ve head of it John 1:29. But what many falsely assert is that Jesus’ sacrifice wipes away all sin therefore I don’t have to worry about sin. Jesus’ sacrifice on Calvary was objectively sufficient for taking away all sin, it isn’t efficaciously sufficient because we won’t competely yield to Him in all areas of our lives. That’s how and why Paul can say in Col 1:24
“Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church,”

Paul says he completes what is lacking in Christs afflictions?
Something is lacking in Christ’s afflictions? I thought that Calvary was sufficient to wipe away all sin?
Again, what IS lacking in Christ’s afflictions isn’t Jesus, no, what is lacking is our cooperation with His grace.

You and I and all human beings were created for life, eternal life and eternal fellowship with God. Unfortunately, we are stained by sin, Adam’s sin and our own sin, and as St. Paul taught us, “the wages of sin is death”. This is the “sin underneath the blanket” you spoke of. But, because of Christ’s work on the cross, that is not the end of the story.

What I understand the Catholic church teaches with regard to purgatory is that is for the cleansing of all that hinders one from entry into the vision of God. And of course, even after we become Christians, sin is something that we have to deal with and can still separate us from God. But if one is sinless, then there are no hindrances. So, at the moment of our justification, though we may have sin in our lives, God declares that he will consider it no more. THERE IS AN ONTOLOGICAL CHANGE – “If then any be in Christ a new creature, the old things are passed away, behold all things are made new” (2 Corinthians 5:17).

I’d argue that the Protestant idea of imputation isn’t actually a true ontological change, but a partial change in one sense, since that sin is always going to be underneath the covering of Christ. Infused grace is more of an ontological change and I’d argue, is consistant with 2 Peter 1:4…that we become partakers in His divine nature, and Col 1:24 where the lacking of Christ’s sacrifice in NOT Jesus but our failure to yield to His grace and love even though we are still justified before Him. God takes sin seriously, and many times we do not.

Thus it follows that if a person is justified by God, that the hindrances of the sinful nature are taken away and there is a new nature that is put on, one that is created after the likeness of God, that is righteous and holy, and if a person should die at that moment in that state, there would be no need for said person to enter purgatory because there are no hindrances to entry to the vision of God.

Will every Christian be completely sanctified in this life before death?

If not then there ARE hinderances to enter in heaven, Rev 21:27 and there IS a need for a purging of the sin that hasn’t been completely repented from.

 

[Bishopite]

Acts16:28 But Paul cried with a loud voice, saying, Do thyself no harm: for we are all here.

16:29 Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,

30And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? **
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. **

Anyone can just paste scripture but tell us what it means.
And could you please post Acts 2:38 and Mark 16:16 for us?

 

[Trinity1984]

Paul writes that the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation for all who believe. Getting the Gospel message wrong entails that the power God has provided for us to truly live sanctified lives in His Spirit is completely undermined. This was the principle cause of the reformation.

Both sides of this divide are often misrepresented rather maliciously. Roman Catholics are painted as pelagians (Which is false) and reformed Christians as antinomians (Which is also false.)

Jesus Christ preached the gospel so well that he attracted people who were absolutely outcast by the religious establishment of His day. He preached God’s grace alone, through faith in Him alone. He preached that through faith alone in Him men could have forgiveness for all their sin and eternal life as children of God. The power of that message brought by the sealing power of the Holy Spirit saved prostitutes, drunkards & tax-collectors making them holy people of God.

It’s truly a tragedy that the largest body of Christians in the world are deprived of the full and complete Catholic truth of justification. This message, the true message of the gospel of Jesus Christ, has the power to absolutely set people ablaze for the Triune God. To confound it, out of fear that a person will live a life of license, is to distrust the Almighty and preach our own inventions.

True unity in visible Christianity will only begin to occur once this truth is embraced with open arms by the Roman Catholic community.

We all pray for that glorious day. :extrahappy:

 

[Grace_Seeker]

Will every Christian be completely sanctified in this life before death?

Well, we could hope. But, no, it appears that would be the unusual case, not the norm.

If not then there ARE hinderances to enter in heaven, Rev 21:27 and there IS a need for a purging of the sin that hasn’t been completely repented from.

I didn’t say that folks like you and me and Mother Theresa and murderers like St. Paul don’t have hindrances. That gets back to talking about Purgatory again, which is NOT the issue I raised.

Again, my issue was with what I saw as an imprecise concept of justification. I submit to you, based on the teachings of the Catholic church itself, that at the moment of our justification that we all stand equally before God.

See, Mother Theresa’s good works of grace consist not of those that she did prior to becoming justified but subesquent.

The murderer St. Paul’s sin of murder took place prior to being justified, not subsequent.

So, at the moment of justification we can’t see that Sr. Paul was a murderer and that Mother Theresa had done countless good works. We can only say that both of them, irregardless of their past or future, were at that moment justified and right with God. They had neither sins nor good works to their credit nor shame. And if God had taken them to himself at that moment in time, they would have entered heaven solely on the basis of Christ’s work and their faith in it. Nothing more, nothing less.

Now, if you want to go comparing notes for how Mother Theresa, St. Paul, or any other murderer lives sobsequent to their justification and just how sanctified (or unsanctified, if there is such a term) of a life they each lived, then we can talk about that. But that is not what I have been talking about in any part of this discussion. If you confuse those two things together, you will not be able to understand my point, because you will be totally missing it, as it is not applicable to the concept of sanctification nor am I referring to any aspects related your belief in purgatory.

 

[Grace_Seeker]

Yes, I’ve head of it John 1:29. But what many falsely assert is that Jesus’ sacrifice wipes away all sin therefore I don’t have to worry about sin. Jesus’ sacrifice on Calvary was objectively sufficient for taking away all sin, it isn’t efficaciously sufficient because we won’t competely yield to Him in all areas of our lives. That’s how and why Paul can say in Col 1:24

Be careful what you deny. When I say that Christ’s sacrifice wipes away all sin, I don’t mean that I won’t sin again. I mean that I have a new start and that this new start does not carry all my old sins with me into my new relationship with God through Jesus Christ.

When you say that Jesus’s sacrifice on Calvary…isn’t efficaciously sufficient… You are saying that it isn’t able to make an effect on our lives. I’m not sure that you want to say that Christ’s sacrifice has no effect. (Before you dispute with me that this is what you are saying, all I did was use the word effect to define efficcaciously. If that’s not what you are saying, perhaps you want to use a different word than efficaciously?)

Again, here is what I read in the CCC

Justification from sin and God’s indwelling in the soul are a grace. When we say a sinner is justified by God, is given a life by the Holy Spirit, possesses in himself Christ’s life, or has grace, we are using expressions which in different words mean one and the same thing, namely dying to sin, becoming partakers of the divinity of the Son through the Spirit of adoption and entering into an intimate conversation with the most Holy Trinity.

It goes on to say that “it is the prime duty of Catholic to retain this relationship with God” – in other words, at this point in time, one actually does have that relationship with God of which I speak. And as to the good works of Mother Theresa, the CCC goes on to say, “only in the state of grace can one merit further blessings”. Again, what I see the CCC teaching is that justification gets us back to a zero balance. It wipes away all of the negative, but nothing positive can be added until we have wiped away all of the negative. So…

1a) Murderer (who is not a Christian) has many negatives in his life.

1b) Mother Theresa (prior to becoming a Christian) might be doing good, might be doing bad. The postiive things don’t count, so, she has a small negative score.

2a) The murderer gets saved, becomes a Christian, is justified (use which ever of those terms you prefer, they all mean the same thing for our purposes here) and suddenly all of his negative score is cancelled. He is at zero.

2b) Mother Theresa becomes a Christian (perhaps through baptism as an infant, how is not the issue, only that she does) and in the same way all of her negatives are also cancelled. She too is at zero.

3a) The murderer is called to live a holy life in response to the gospel at work in his life. He tries to do good, but lilke St.Paul he struggles. In fact, he often fails, and he gives up trying. He committs more crimes. Maybe even another murder. He racks up many hindrances to his entry into heaven. Maybe he even turns his back on Christ and forfeits his salvation experience.

3b) Mother Theresa is called to live a holy life in response to the gospel at work in her life. She tries to do good, but like St. Paul she struggles. In fact, she often fails, but she does not give up trying. She cooperates with the Holy Spirit working in her life and is able to perform some good works. First one and then another, until finally her life is characterized by good works. She is not perfect, but she has learned to live with a perfect love for God and to express God’s perfect love for people through her life.

4a) The murderer dies. He faces judgement. And depending on whether he ultimately abandoned his faith, or just was a poor practioner of it. he is either condemned to hell permamently or to purgatory for a long time.

4b) Mother Theresa dies. She faces judgement. And depending on how her works are judged she is spends a short period of time in purgatory or enters immedieately into the beautific vision.

Now, this is Catholic teaching as best as I understand it. And note, that even in Catholic teaching, at the moment of their justification (2a and 2b), there is no differentiation in the justness of the murder and Mother Theresa. They are both at zero in terms of sin and good works. What happens subsequent to that is all about their sanctification and this is what purgatory is concerned with. But, I was objecting to what Idahown had mistakenly said about their different levels of justness. They are equally just, but just not equally sanctified.

If I am in error as to what Catholic teaching is on this issue, please show where it is that I have misrepresented the Catholic teaching on justification, NOT on purgatory or sanctification.

 

[Idahown]

I was objecting to what Idahown had mistakenly said about their different levels of justness. They are equally just, but just not equally sanctified.

If I am in error as to what Catholic teaching is on this issue, please show where it is that I have misrepresented the Catholic teaching on justification, NOT on purgatory or sanctification.

I look forward to anyone enlightened with the Holy Spirit to edify this whole conversation. With complete humility for truth, I accept a better “Catholic” understanding of this truth.

With humble ears,

Michael Francis

 

[Grace_Seeker]

I look forward to anyone enlightened with the Hold Spirit to edify this whole conversation. With complete humility for truth, I accept a better “Catholic” understanding of this truth.

With humble ears,

Michael Francis

Me too. I didn’t post this for the sake of arguing. If I Catholic teaching is different than this, I seriously want to know what it actually is.

 

[Bishopite]

Grace Seeker;2564414]Well, we could hope. But, no, it appears that would be the unusual case, not the norm.

Well, then something has to happen between death and glory that completes our sanctification and that’s all the Catholic church is saying in regard to purgatory.

I didn’t say that folks like you and me and Mother Theresa and murderers like St. Paul don’t have hindrances. That gets back to talking about Purgatory again, which is NOT the issue I raised

Ok, let’s get back on track.

Again, my issue was with what I saw as an imprecise concept of justification. I submit to you, based on the teachings of the Catholic church itself, that at the moment of our justification that we all stand equally before God.

I agree as I did prior. Yes, we are all equally justified, however not all equally faithful, therefore not all equally sanctified.

See, Mother Theresa’s good works of grace consist not of those that she did prior to becoming justified but subesquent.

The murderer St. Paul’s sin of murder took place prior to being justified, not subsequent.

So, at the moment of justification we can’t see that Sr. Paul was a murderer and that Mother Theresa had done countless good works. We can only say that both of them, irregardless of their past or future, were at that moment justified and right with God. They had neither sins nor good works to their credit nor shame. And if God had taken them to himself at that moment in time, they would have entered heaven solely on the basis of Christ’s work and their faith in it. Nothing more, nothing less.

Of course apart from God’s grace, all of our good is rubbish and that after we are justified in our inititial justification we are all equally justified. You only believe that justification is punctiliar only, but justification as sanctification is a process, so that after we are justified those Mother Theresa’s who really do to the least of these of Mt 25:40 are more sanctified aren’t they. Would you not agree that those like Mother Theresa are more sanctified than others?

Now, if you want to go comparing notes for how Mother Theresa, St. Paul, or any other murderer lives sobsequent to their justification and just how sanctified (or unsanctified, if there is such a term) of a life they each lived, then we can talk about that. But that is not what I have been talking about in any part of this discussion. If you confuse those two things together, you will not be able to understand my point, because you will be totally missing it, as it is not applicable to the concept of sanctification nor am I referring to any aspects related your belief in purgatory.

I responded because you chose to respond to another poster giving verses that you said debunk purgatory and I understand your point completely; that when we are justified we are all equal and I have no problem with that truth. We are not all completely sanctified in the same degree though at the moment of our death.

 

[Bishopite]

Be careful what you deny. When I say that Christ’s sacrifice wipes away all sin, I don’t mean that I won’t sin again. I mean that I have a new start and that this new start does not carry all my old sins with me into my new relationship with God through Jesus Christ.

I don’t deny Christ’s sacrifice was objectively sufficient for wiping away all sin, not at all.
“We may regard the redemption [of Christ’s sacrifice on the cross] objectively or subjectively. Objectively the Redemption is the work of the Redeemer, subjectively the Redemption is the realisation of the Redemption in individual men, **or the application of the fruits of the Redemption to individual men **(Justification). Christ’s work of Redemption effected the salvation of humanity from the burden of sin. But sin, by its very nature, is turning away from God (aversio a Deo) and a turning towards the creature (conversio as creaturam). Accordingly, the work of the Redemption must consist in turning away from the creature, and turning towards God (Cf. Col 1:13).” (Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, Ludwig Ott, page 177).

That’s what I believe about Christ’s sacrifice on the cross. Objectively Christ’s sacrifice was sufficient, subjectively its application in us depends on us.

When you say that Jesus’s sacrifice on Calvary…isn’t efficaciously sufficient… You are saying that it isn’t able to make an effect on our lives. I’m not sure that you want to say that Christ’s sacrifice has no effect. (Before you dispute with me that this is what you are saying, all I did was use the word effect to define efficcaciously. If that’s not what you are saying, perhaps you want to use a different word than efficaciously?)

Yes, I used an improper word, sorry. I should have used subjective.

Again, here is what I read in the CCC

It goes on to say that “it is the prime duty of Catholic to retain this relationship with God” – in other words, at this point in time, one actually does have that relationship with God of which I speak. And as to the good works of Mother Theresa, the CCC goes on to say, “only in the state of grace can one merit further blessings”. Again, what I see the CCC teaching is that justification gets us back to a zero balance. It wipes away all of the negative, but nothing positive can be added until we have wiped away all of the negative. So…

Now, this is Catholic teaching as best as I understand it. And note, that even in Catholic teaching, at the moment of their justification (2a and 2b), there is no differentiation in the justness of the murder and Mother Theresa. They are both at zero in terms of sin and good works.

I agree and you have described it well. The moment of a persons justification “faith and baptism” ALL are equally justified.

What happens subsequent to that is all about their sanctification and this is what purgatory is concerned with. But, I was objecting to what Idahown had mistakenly said about their different levels of justness. They are equally just, but just not equally sanctified.

If I am in error as to what Catholic teaching is on this issue, please show where it is that I have misrepresented the Catholic teaching on justification, NOT on purgatory or sanctification.

You are correct and I’ve again, affirmed that when we become justified we are all equally justified.

 

[Grace_Seeker]

You only believe that justification is punctiliar only, but justification as sanctification is a process, so that after we are justified those Mother Theresa’s who really do to the least of these of Mt 25:40 are more sanctified aren’t they. Would you not agree that those like Mother Theresa are more sanctified than others?

I responded because you chose to respond to another poster giving verses that you said debunk purgatory and I understand your point completely; that when we are justified we are all equal and I have no problem with that truth. We are not all completely sanctified in the same degree though at the moment of our death.

I don’t recall responding to anything with regard to purgatory except to say that verses that speak abour purgatory are not relevant to (initial) justification. If I did, I was mistaken and it was not my intent to comment on purgatory at all.

On your prior point, yes I do hold that justification is punctillar. Whereas you spoke in a previous post about justification and sanctification being two sides of the same coin. I think of justification and regeneration as being two sides of the same coin. It happens in an instant, and then like with all births, life continues on from there. So, I see that sanctification is the process that follows justification and flows out of it. Growing in grace is not a process of justification, as I see justification – though grace filled – to be the result of a declaratory act of God with regard to us. But growing in grace is a process of sanctification, by which we are made righteous and holy and fit for heaven.

Bishopite, as I read what you write of the process “sanctification is a process, so that after we are justified those Mother Theresa’s who really do to the least of these of Mt 25:40 are more sanctified” we are very much in agreement. It appears that our only real difference is in one or two of our applications of terms

Paul writes: “I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day—and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing” (2 Timothy 4:7-8).

We agree that this race has a starting line when we come to faith, a finish line with rewards for those who race well, and a race between those two points.

I call getting in the blocks God’s prevenient grace, the crack of the gun at the starting line justification, the race sanctification, and the finish line heaven. Maybe you could label those various aspects of Paul’s analogy and we can compare notes again.

 

[Bishopite]

I don’t recall responding to anything with regard to purgatory except to say that verses that speak abour purgatory are not relevant to (initial) justification. If I did, I was mistaken and it was not my intent to comment on purgatory at all.

Alright, fair enough.

On your prior point, yes I do hold that justification is punctillar. Whereas you spoke in a previous post about justification and sanctification being two sides of the same coin. I think of justification and regeneration as being two sides of the same coin. It happens in an instant, and then like with all births, life continues on from there. So, I see that sanctification is the process that follows justification and flows out of it. Growing in grace is not a process of justification, as I see justification – though grace filled – to be the result of a declaratory act of God with regard to us. But growing in grace is a process of sanctification, by which we are made righteous and holy and fit for heaven.

Actually what I said was that justification wasn’t punctiliar only not that it isn’t punctiliar; of course there has to be a point in time for one to be justified. As we are justified, we are also being sanctified. Paul uses these terms interchangably…“But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God” (1 Cor. 6:11).

And Abraham is a great example of justification (righteousness) being a process. I being a former Protestant took the point of view a number or years ago that Abraham was justified in a punctiliar action based on Gen 15:6. However, I do not agree now that Abraham was justified at that point but much earlier in Gen 12:1-4 and this is evident from Hebrews 11:8 which refferences it.
And it is a declaritive act of God but as I mentioned earlier, it is an infusion of grace, and ontological one, an infusion into our being not just a covering for when God says you are justified or righteous (both are the same use of the word). When God says something He means what He says as He can’t say something and it not be, like in Gen 1:3 God said “let there be light” and there was light, so goes our being–ontologically righteous not just an imputation but an actual change within

Bishopite, as I read what you write of the process “sanctification is a process, so that after we are justified those Mother Theresa’s who really do to the least of these of Mt 25:40 are more sanctified” we are very much in agreement. It appears that our only real difference is in one or two of our applications of terms

I agree that sanctification is a process but I also affirm justification is also and I can show this from Abraham in Genesis 12-17 and Heb 11.

I call getting in the blocks God’s prevenient grace, the crack of the gun at the starting line justification, the race sanctification, and the finish line heaven. Maybe you could label those various aspects of Paul’s analogy and we can compare notes again.

I suppose it could be put that way, but again I believe both justification and sanctification is a process as is salvation.

 

[passioncrosslov]

Could somebody here say he believes in Christ and never want to do any work?

Loving Our Lord alone is doing something, since he said to Martha regarding Mary, “Mary has chosen the best part” (contemplating and loving Him).



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