The tweleve days of christmas

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Bobby Jim:
The other issue I would take is that there is no obvious link between the elements of the song, e.g. seven swans a-swimming and eight maids-a-milking, and the things they supposedly represent. Let’s see - seven swans-a-swimming - do I remember the seven gifts of the holy spirit? the seven corporal works of mercy? the seven sacraments? the seven churches of Revelation? seven dolors of Mary? Seven major basilicas? seven last words from the cross? seven deadly sins? seven last plauges? seven archangels? (or maybe the three French hens are the three named archangels Gabriel, Michael, Raphael…)

anyway, it seems like a poor memory aid if you ask me. Especially since the things cover such a wide cross-section of BIble and theology - there’s no sort of thematic relationship. And most of these numbers (especially 3, 7, and 12) could represent so many different things in the Bible and in Catholic theology.

the one that gives it away if you ask me is the 11th day - the only thing they could come up with for 11 is “11 faithful disciples”. That, if you ask me, is really shoe-horned in there - it’s not something of great theological significance. If you read Acts, they appoint St. Matthias to replace Judas so the number stays at 12.
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i think its a good aid. and who knows why they choose what numbers repersent what. perhaps if you wrote it, you would have choosen different things. but since you didn’t…
 
really you people haven’t come up with one good argument to dissprove this theroy.
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Let’s try this yet again. Read carefully . . .

None of the supposed “hidden doctrines” of the song are distinctively Catholic. All of them are held by the vast majority of Protestants, Anglicans included.

Why would there be a need to disguise these doctrines, all of which would have been professed by any orthodox Anglican of the 16th/17th century?

Also, if one is making the claim, as you did, that this song is really a hidden-code-of-Catholic-doctrines-which-happen-to-be-shared-by-virtually-every-Protestant, the burden of proof is on you to show that this is so, not on the rest of the world to show that it isn’t.

I could just as well claim that “Row, Row, Row Your Boat” is really a Catholic cathetical tool, secretly telling Catholics to adhere to the “Bark of Peter.” This song is really propoganda for the Roman primacy!

Or maybe “What Will We Do with the Druken Sailor” is really a song encouraging the persecution of heretics by Catholics. The “drunken sailor” represents the heretic inebriated with false doctrine, and to “Put him in the brig until he’s sober” means to turn him over to the Inquisition until he recants and does the sobriety of penance. (This song actually does end in an “Amen”!)

:rolleyes:
 
Ther is a Jewish children’s rhyme/song/chant that is similar–although not about the Twelve Days of Christmas, naturally. It starts with “One is ha-Shem” (literally “the Name,” referring to the Name of God) and adds a number every time through. The first few (with explanations in angle braces) are

Four are the Mamas <Sarah, Rebekah, Leah, and Rachel> and three are the Papas <Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob>
And two are the tablets that Moshe brought
And one is ha-Shem, one is ha-Shem, one is ha-Shem,
in the heavens and the earth.

It ends with “Thirteen are the ways that God is good.” I cannot for the life of me remember what eleven is, although I remember the others.
  • Liberian
 
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Sacramentalist:
Let’s try this yet again. Read carefully . . .

None of the supposed “hidden doctrines” of the song are distinctively Catholic. All of them are held by the vast majority of Protestants, Anglicans included.

, the burden of proof is on you to show that this is so, not on the rest of the world to show that it isn’t.

I could just as well claim that “Row, Row, Row Your Boat” is really a Catholic cathetical tool, secretly telling Catholics to adhere to the “Bark of Peter.” This song is really propoganda for the Roman primacy!

:rolleyes:
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well point A, i don’t need to show any burden of proof to you or the rest of the world, i believe it to be true… as there is NO evidence suggesting its wrong. what you believe is up to you, its of no relivence to me.
point B. you could claim that if you want. but unlike the song 12 days of christmas… it can be proven thats not what the song is about :tiphat: .
 
I have been suspicious of this urban legend ever since I first heard it. It’s too much like that “pluck yew” and other mailings of that ilk.

Interesting how this didn’t become widely known until the internet arrived.
 
Bobby Jim:
The other issue I would take is that there is no obvious link between the elements of the song, e.g. seven swans a-swimming and eight maids-a-milking, and the things they supposedly represent. Let’s see - seven swans-a-swimming - do I remember the seven gifts of the holy spirit? the seven corporal works of mercy? the seven sacraments? the seven churches of Revelation? seven dolors of Mary? Seven major basilicas? seven last words from the cross? seven deadly sins? seven last plauges? seven archangels? (or maybe the three French hens are the three named archangels Gabriel, Michael, Raphael…)

anyway, it seems like a poor memory aid if you ask me. Especially since the things cover such a wide cross-section of BIble and theology - there’s no sort of thematic relationship. And most of these numbers (especially 3, 7, and 12) could represent so many different things in the Bible and in Catholic theology.

the one that gives it away if you ask me is the 11th day - the only thing they could come up with for 11 is “11 faithful disciples”. That, if you ask me, is really shoe-horned in there - it’s not something of great theological significance. If you read Acts, they appoint St. Matthias to replace Judas so the number stays at 12.
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This is exactly what I have been thinking on this all day. (It’s amazing what occupies one mind during tedious hours of work)

A Mnemonic memory aid usually has something that actually helps you remember at least part of it.

For example.

ROY G BIV for the colors of the spectrum (Red Orange Yellow, Green Blue Indigo Violet)

or for the Great Lakes, just remember HOMES. Huron, Ontario, Michigan, Erie, Superior.

There are other types of mnemonic aids too. For example, making a sentence with each word beginning with the letter of what you are trying to remember.

The Planets: My Very Energetic Mother Just Served Us Noodle Pie (Mercury Venus Earth Mars Jupiter Saturn Uranus Neptune Pluto)

The notes of on a sheet of music contains both types. Every Good Boy Does Fine for the notes on the lines, and FACE for the notes in between the lines.

The twelve days does nothing but give a number, and that is hardly a mnemonic aid.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_learn_lines
 
misterX:

Thanks be to God, you have every right to believe whatever your clouded intellect desires.

However, about addressing the most basic argument against this urban legend, namely:

None of the supposed “hidden doctrines” of the song are distinctively Catholic. All of them are held by the vast majority of Protestants, Anglicans included.

Why would there be a need to disguise these doctrines, all of which would have been professed by any orthodox Anglican of the 16th/17th century?

Again: when someone makes a positive affirmation, as you have with the origin of this song, and provides for it absolutely no backing whatsoever, it simply cannot be taken to be true by a rational human being.

You believe everything you’re toldf, with no backing, just because it could be true?

You, on the other hand, apparently can believe it. Good for you. I wish I had the ability to suspend my rational faculty the way that you do.

:rolleyes:
 
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TeriGator:
I have been suspicious of this urban legend ever since I first heard it. It’s too much like that “pluck yew” and other mailings of that ilk.

Interesting how this didn’t become widely known until the internet arrived.
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TeriGator,

Presumably you’re talking about “The Twelve Days of Christmas” and not the Jewish song, which I heard at a Simchas Torah party in New Jersey in 1984.
  • Liberian
 
Everyone should know that Snopes is a respectable hoaxbuster site. And if you don’t believe them, others will still corroborate the fact that this “memory song” story is indeed untrue.
 
I wish the story was true. Oh well, we can’t have everything we wish for!
 
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Liberian:
TeriGator,

Presumably you’re talking about “The Twelve Days of Christmas” and not the Jewish song, which I heard at a Simchas Torah party in New Jersey in 1984.
  • Liberian
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Liberian, you are correct. Sorry I didn’t make myself clear on that. :o

I’ve never actually heard of the Jewish song you mentioned.
 
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Sacramentalist:
misterX:

Thanks be to God, you have every right to believe whatever your clouded intellect desires.

However, about addressing the most basic argument against this urban legend, namely:

None of the supposed “hidden doctrines” of the song are distinctively Catholic. All of them are held by the vast majority of Protestants, Anglicans included.

Why would there be a need to disguise these doctrines, all of which would have been professed by any orthodox Anglican of the 16th/17th century?

Again: when someone makes a positive affirmation, as you have with the origin of this song, and provides for it absolutely no backing whatsoever, it simply cannot be taken to be true by a rational human being.

You believe everything you’re toldf, with no backing, just because it could be true?

You, on the other hand, apparently can believe it. Good for you. I wish I had the ability to suspend my rational faculty the way that you do.

:rolleyes:
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first off. cheap lame insult taken. but as i said, there are texts going around saying it isn’t true, and there are texts saying it is. and neither are able to provide solid evidence. so i’m believing it with out no backing??.so really if the evidence doesn’t support nor dismiss it. you dismissing means you seem to suffer also from a clouded intellect. so it seems to me than the only basis you have for saying i have a clouded intellect is because i don’t agree with you. which makes you very arogant and narrow minded. :tsktsk: And if given the choice i’ll take a clouded intellect over a narrow mind any day, because as they say it’s easier to clear ones thinking than it is to broaden ones mind:tiphat: .
 
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misterX:
this is what was on the web site, i found it on
<<>>
p.s the site i got the song off isn’t a catholic site.
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I’ve been to several sites besides Snopes (which, btw, has a very good reputation for finding the truth behind urban legends), and not one indicates that this story is in anyway correct. Please tell us what website you took this off of so we can check it out. I’ve found the essence, if not the exact text, of your quote on several sites, all of which included an adendum stating that they have discovered the story is not true.

E.G.
answers.org/issues/twelvedb.html

“So I went looking and backtracking. What I discovered after a year’s worth of investigation, was that there is no evidence that this particular song was even old enough to be used as a catechism during Catholic restrictions. There was, however, a similar song that was probably confused with the 12 Days carol that contained an open catechism. I concluded that the 12 Days of Christmas was not a secret catechism, but can be used as a summary of faith, giving a contemporary meaning to the days as we did in our original article. In addition, the story also reminds us of how songs were often used to convey articles or truths of the faith in societies that learned more from the spoken (or sung) word than the written. Below are both songs, with the contemporary doctrinal items included in The 12 Days of Christmas.[5]”

And new-life.net/chrtms18.htm
"It would be nice if this meaning of “The Twelve Days” was actually true. It would be a wonderful way to teach basic doctrines. But apparently this information is false and the story is actually another example (like the candy cane) of a Christian urban legend. "

There is even an indication that the original order of the song is different than what is used in the story you hold to be true. If the original word order is different from the one you believe to be the original, they can’t both be the original. If, as the story goes, the song was written with the specifics of the Cathechism in mind, then no other word order would make sense.

I have not done an extensive search on the history of this song, but what I have found leads me to disbelieve the veracity of your claim. If it now helps you (or anyone else) to remember the meaning of Christmas and the Gospel message-- WONDERFUL! We all can use things to help us to focus on the real meaning and Truth of Christmas. But to continue to state that the story of the origins of the song is true because you believe it to be so just doesn’t hold water.
 
I think The 12 days of Christmas is being confused with an older song that may have catechical origins…

Green grow the rushes, O

I’ll sing you twelve, O
Green grow the rushes, O
What are your twelve, O?
Twelve for the twelve Apostles ,
Eleven for the eleven who went to heaven,
Ten for the ten commandments,
Nine for the nine bright shiners,
Eight for the eight bold rangers,
Seven for the seven stars in the sky
Six for the six proud walkers,
Five for the symbols at your door,
Four for the Gospel makers,
Three, three, the rivals,
Two, two, lily-white boys,
Clothed all in green, O
One is one and all alone
And evermore shall be so.

One is one and all alone:
  • God, or Jesus Christ
Two, two, the lily-white boys (babes), clothed all in green-ho
  • God and Jesus
  • Or: Jesus Christ and John the Baptist
Three, three, the rivals (arrivals)
  • The Trinity (God, Jesus, The Holy Ghost)
Four for the gospel makers:
  • The Four Evangelists (Matthew, Mark, Luke, & John)
Five for the symbols at your door
  • The five books of Moses
  • Or: a pentagram, a common protective motif on medieval doorposts
Six for the six proud Walkers
  • “Walkers” may be a corruption of “waters”
  • The six water-pots used in the miracle of Cana
Seven for the seven stars in the sky:
  • The seven stars in the constellation Ursa Major (The Big Dipper)
  • The seven churches of revelation
Eight for the Eight Bold Rangers (April rainers)
  • The constellation Hyades (eight stars)
  • Or: Gabriel and the Archangels
Nine for the nine bright shiners:
  • The Muses ?
Ten for the ten commandments:

Eleven for the eleven who went to heaven:
  • The eleven apostles minus Judas
Twelve for the twelve apostles:
 
Count 🙂 me among the it’s-a-counting-song-and-nothing-more camp.

The real question is:
How high would you have to count before you chanced upon a number which could **not **be ascribed some biblical or catechetical attribute? :hmmm:
tee
 
misterX:

You obviously are unaware of some of the most basic principles of debate.

If someone comes up, ot of no where, and makes a positive affirmation, the burden of proof is on that person to prove his claim. This burden does not rest on the shoulders who oppose the person’s claim, or ask for evidence.

“There’s no proof it didn’t happen” is not a itself a proof for one’s positive seertion.
 
Axion, you make a good point. Having sung “Green grow the rushes” many moons ago in a kingdom far, far away, I can see some of your point. What is missing from this entire discussion is that there ARE twelve days of Christmas. Growing up in New Orleans, Christmas does not begin until AFTER Midnight Mass. Everyone goes home for a feast - the Revillion. Christmas ends on January 6th - the old traditional date of the Feast of the Epiphany which opens the Mardi Gras season for us. We do not take down our Christmas trees until January 7th. And, we have the tradition of the “King cake” - a sweet brioche in which a baby (the Christ child) is inserted. The person who gets the baby has to buy the next king cake. We have been doing this in south Louisiana for over two hundred years. This was passed down to us by our ancestors so it has to have overwhelming European roots.
 
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Sacramentalist:
I’m not even so sure that the idea of there being “12 Days of Christmas” is even a Catholic concept.
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The Second Council of Tours (canons 11 and 17) proclaims, in 566 or 567, the sanctity of the “twelve days” from Christmas to Epiphany.

The strong connection between Christmas and Epiphany and the festive nature of the 12 days in between has been retained among the Orthodox. Why it has all but disappeared in the West, to the point that people have doubts that it is even a Catholic concept, is a question to which I don’t know the answer. Anybody?
 
Fr Ambrose:
The Second Council of Tours (canons 11 and 17) proclaims, in 566 or 567, the sanctity of the “twelve days” from Christmas to Epiphany.

The strong connection between Christmas and Epiphany and the festive nature of the 12 days in between has been retained among the Orthodox. Why it has all but disappeared in the West, to the point that people have doubts that it is even a Catholic concept, is a question to which I don’t know the answer. Anybody?
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Does this above-mentioned Council refer to them as the Twelve days of Christmas?

I suppose I’m curious as to what significance the “Christmas Octave” has if, in fact, the remaining four days are also “of Christmas.”

Did the Latin Church have octaves before 1054?
 
Or what if the “Twelve Days” concept was something adopted by local Churches only, and not the Latin Church as a whole?
 
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