The Two Olive Branches

  • Thread starter Thread starter Theoferrum
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
T

Theoferrum

Guest
And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two Olive Branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves? And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord. Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand before the Lord of the whole earth…

I recently converted to Catholicism from Protestantism and did so in a Byzantine Catholic Church so I am actually more familiar with Orthodoxy, in a way, then I am with Western Catholicism.

I wanted to share with you all something to think about.

The verse above is taken from Zechariah 4.

Ask yourself who the Lord of the whole earth is and the obvious answer is the Lord Jesus Christ.

Now, ask yourself this.

Who are the Two Olive Branches mentioned?

Well, since the Apostle Paul compares the Church to the Olive Branches (wild) that have been grafted into the commonwealth of Israel, then this can only be refering to the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church.

**In other words, both are part of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church… **
 
Nine_Two said:
Is that Eastern Orthodox or Oriental Orthodox. 😉
Click to expand...
Those two would fall under the same side of the coin, if you will. There is vertually no difference between the two except samantics over the hypostatic union which has been publically acknowledged between the two.

But lets look at this another way to emphasize my point.

Both Catholics and Orthodox believe in “Full communion of the saints” living and dead, but they don’t understand the full extent of this communion for neither are in “full communion” with the other and, yet, every Sunday morning, when a Catholic Congregation takes communion, they are, in reality, receiving communion with and at the same time as the Orthodox through the body of the Divine Savior thus, whether they acknowledge it or not or understand it or not or believe it or not, the Catholics are, literally, in Divine Communion with the Orthodox and with all the saints and, further, that is past, present and future for the Spirit who moves through all things (to use a Native American term) is not limited by space or time.

Do you understand what I am saying?

The proof is simply that both groups manifest Apostalic Authority and thus transubstantiation is occuring in both Liturgies and, if it is, then they are in full communion with each other whether they like it or not.

The proofs are the reception (valid) of the Stigmata by both Catholics and Orthodox Saints and the manifestation of Incorruptibility of the Saints by Saints from both groups. These two phenomenum proves Apostalic Authority in both groups showing that both are part of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.
 
The commentary interprets the olive branches as the temporal and spiritual authorities.
 
Theoferrum said:
And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two Olive Branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves? And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord. Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand before the Lord of the whole earth…

I recently converted to Catholicism from Protestantism and did so in a Byzantine Catholic Church so I am actually more familiar with Orthodoxy, in a way, then I am with Western Catholicism.

I wanted to share with you all something to think about.

The verse above is taken from Zechariah 4.

Ask yourself who the Lord of the whole earth is and the obvious answer is the Lord Jesus Christ.

Now, ask yourself this.

Who are the Two Olive Branches mentioned?

Well, since the Apostle Paul compares the Church to the Olive Branches (wild) that have been grafted into the commonwealth of Israel, then this can only be refering to the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church.

In other words, both are part of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church…
Click to expand...
The answer to your question might come with the correct interpretation of Revelation 11:3-6:
And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth." 4These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth. 5If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and devours their enemies. This is how anyone who wants to harm them must die. 6These men have power to shut up the sky so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying; and they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want.
Click to expand...
biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+11&version=NIV

Note how the second portion I have bolded is verbatim (at least in English) to Zechariah 4.
 
Madaglan said:
The answer to your question might come with the correct interpretation of Revelation 11:3-6:

biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+11&version=NIV

Note how the second portion I have bolded is verbatim (at least in English) to Zechariah 4.
Click to expand...
I agree that the passage in Revelation is referring to the passage in Zechariah but another application, I believe, can be made as I have done. The two witnesses would be, therefore, the embodiament of these two sources of authority and, as such, are Types or Shadows of their twins in the Christian World - this from Paul who said the events in the Old Testament were shadows or types from which we can learn.

The reason why I say that it can be applied to the Church is that Y’shua is the Lord of the whole earth however, he did not become such until the incarnation and, therefore, that passage could really not have been fulfilled until after that event and, therefore, the application to the Church makes more since as far as its fulfillment in a systematic way. This, taken with Paul’s application of the Wild Olive Branches to the Church (and exactly what passage in the Old Testament could he possibly have had in mind other then this passage in Zechariah?) implies a dual fulfillment. The Natural Olive Branches would be Moses and Elijah (and therefore the nation of Israel proper) and the Wild Olive Branches to the Gentile Church - Catholicism and Orthodoxy.

For example, another way to look at the relationship of the Orthodox and the Catholics is that the Priesthood in Israel was actually divided up into two parts. You had the Aaronic Priesthood which was the inner core and ministered to Y’hova himself. Then you had the Levitical Priesthood which was larger and ministered to the people and these two, I believe, find their counterpart in the Orthodox and Catholic positions.
 
JW55 said:
An interesting insight. Something to give thought to.
Click to expand...
Thanks. Been thinking about this for a while. Here is another thought.

Years ago, before I converted to Catholicism, I did a study on the imputation of authority in the word and that is accomplished via the laying on of hands.

Now, also, there are three sources of authority in the word - Prophetical, Priestly and Kingly. Their counterparts in the secular world are Judicial, Legislative and Executive respectively.

Now, with Y’shua as the Lord of the whole earth he would be in the position of Prophet - untouched by human hands and called by God alone. This would leave the two Olive Branches to fulfill the Prophetically Ordained positions of Priest and King.

So, when we compare this with the Orthodox and the Catholic it is very easy to see that, in fact, the Roman Catholic Church has, in fact, manifested the Royal Scepter in the past to the point that they basically ran the known world of Europe at one time and started lording it over the Orthodox (leading to the schism) where the King is not supposed to lord it over the Priesthood, nor the Priesthood over the Royal Position, but both work together for God. This, then, would place the Orthodox in a more Priestly position and I think this would be the key to their mutual understanding of each others position and would eventually lead to reconciliation between them.

This is not the same as reunion between the two for, in my opinion, they are not supposed to be reunited but maintain their individuality but this in full communion with each other.
 
Theoferrum said:
Both Catholics and Orthodox believe in “Full communion of the saints” living and dead, …
Click to expand...
I like a lot of what you are saying, but in this particular comment I see a problem because each Church has Saints that the other Church does not recognise.
 
sidbrown said:
I like a lot of what you are saying, but in this particular comment I see a problem because each Church has Saints that the other Church does not recognise.
Click to expand...
Does God recognize them?

For instance, both Catholics and Orthodox have saints whose bodies manifest incorruptibility upon death. This is a result of their personal piety and, primarily, because they were “partakers of the Divine Nature” via the Eucharist. So, lets say the Catholics don’t recognize the Orthodox Incorruptible Saints and vice versa yet, the fact remains, that both have saints who are incorruptible and, thus, considered to be Saints by God himself.

Full communion of the Saints is not dependant upon recognition by any one Christian or Church but on the Will of God.
 
Theoferrum said:
Does God recognize them?

For instance, both Catholics and Orthodox have saints whose bodies manifest incorruptibility upon death. This is a result of their personal piety and, primarily, because they were “partakers of the Divine Nature” via the Eucharist. So, lets say the Catholics don’t recognize the Orthodox Incorruptible Saints and vice versa yet, the fact remains, that both have saints who are incorruptible and, thus, considered to be Saints by God himself.

Full communion of the Saints is not dependant upon recognition by any one Christian or Church but on the Will of God.
Click to expand...
True, but it is a problem that people might want to resolve in the event of a reunification.
 
sidbrown said:
True, but it is a problem that people might want to resolve in the event of a reunification.
Click to expand...
Okay - gottcha.

I don’t believe reunification is possible or advisable.

Reconciliation would be more appropriate in that both groups would maintain their individuality, just put an end to the “middle wall of separation” which is their own personal theological blinders that they wear due to the history of both groups. And, actually, if they ever get past the four or five ‘major’ (minor in my opinion) theological differences, I don’t think that saints of the past or present would provide an insurrmountable problem.
 
Could it be that the two olive trees represent Christians and Jews, a la St. Paul in the Epistle to the Romans? Israel is still God’s first born, and they will be saved (Rom. 11:25-26), so are they not also anointed?

You present an interesting analysis.

God bless,
Charles
 
I am one of the olive branches. It is a couple of years early before my days of preaching. The day of the Lord is coming soon. Please pray for me, the woman who flees into the wilderness to have a male child, and the other olive branch.
 
The Fathers of the Church from early times have taught that the two Olive Trees and the Two lamp stands of the Book of the Apocalypse are “types” of Enoch (Henoch) and Elijah. Both of these men did not die, but “were taken” and are mysteriously with God until the time of their future, brutal martyrdom by the Anti-Christ.

Enoch (book of Genesis) pleased God in the days before Noah’s flood, long before the Hebrews were chosen to be God’s people. He therefore is the righteous gentiles’ prophet witnessing to God’s eternal truth in natural law by his preaching and martyrdom. Elijah, the greatest of the Jewish prophets (1st book of Kings) is the witness to Israel and the Church: which is the continuation of Israel in the New Testament. When the Anti-Christ suppresses all other teaching of God’s Word, these two will preach with impunity until all the nations have heard the truth and every individual has had the chance to accept or reject it. (Nobody will be able to say “they didn’t know” God’s truth, nor remain neutral about it.) Once these prophets have fulfilled their destiny, they will be martyred as described in the Apocalypse–they will be real, not metaphorical corpses, left unburied by the anti-Christ in the streets of Jerusalem for three days. They are authentic historical figures, not symbols of churches.

This is not to say that other interpretations --as the felicitious one proposed above, --of the Eastern and Western branches of the Church Universal, do not apply in a metaphorical sense–. The prophecies of the Bible are fulfilled in different eras in different ways until the definitive and final and literal fulfillment. Remember what Jesus said of John the Baptist? He and his desciples were aware of the prophecy that “Elijah must come before the last day”-- and Jesus said that John came “in the spirit of Elijah”, for the coming of Jesus was the coming of the Kingdom, only people didn’t recognize it as such. However at the FINAL coming of Jesus at the end of time, Elijah in person will return to tell the Jews that Jesus is indeed the messiah --along with Enoch preaching the same message to the unconverted non-Jews. These are the two olive trees whose continual prayers for the human race --both Jews and Gentiles-- are (symbolically) olive oil flowing from the living trees. [BIBLEDRB][/BIBLEDRB]
 
Hi! You brought in what has interested me for a long time. In fact I am writing a book on this and many other topics to help clarify many misunderstandings we have today in the Church. My book is about 80% finish so being on these forums were a great blessing as alot of my research deals with topics on this website. Please read my other posts if you wish to discover major points of the book. Personally I do not see East and West divided. That is why I have written the book. The Church needs not to come back to each other since in God’s eyes it is united. What needs to be done in my opnion is the healing of old wounds. That is all that is required. To apologize and the acceptance of the aplology. By the way it is interesting that you have discovered the 2 Branches as East and West. My book will clarify somewhat ( now these are my own personal opinions and are not dogma, so can take it or leave it ) Revelation 11 when it mentions the 2 olive branches, lampstands. I believe it also to be Orthodox and Catholic and I will go farther and mentioned that the 2 witnesses will be not 2 people but representatives from these 2 branches of Orthodox and Catholic. For me God does not need a blast from the past. He needs christians now to witness for Him. These christians are the Orthodox and the Catholic Church. And the witnesses He sends out are called from the Orthodox and Catholic Churches. I do not believe a man can take over this planet. That does not make sense. The so called antichrist is not a man but a force that the Church must reackon with. We see that now with the materialism and commercialism that is unbelievably destroying the markings of the Church and the people that live in it. The great beast that arises from the sea is what we are seeing now. You do need to be a rocket sciencitist to realize that we are in trouble. The world and this beast is explointing our childen and the Church. We see from scripture though that this beast gets wounded in the head. This is the result of Fatima and the other Marian apparitions especially the present ones which are ushering many conversions so as to prepare for us the eventual complete conversion of the world. When the world is thus converted ( this is indicated by the wound of the head of the beast ) then the wound on the head is healed and the converted world ends up in a worst scenerio than we have now. This will eventually lead to the 2nd coming of Our Lord Jesus. The 2nd Coming is not determined on a fixed date. Yes there will be a time when Jesus will come but Jesus may have come at times when the Church was so bad that unless a part of Her were not converted He would have ended it then. There have been many instances when God would have ended it but because of His Saints and their call to conversion and the people being responsive to come back God cancels it and the world may continue. I believe God wants us to continue on and on. The 2nd Coming comes because God can no longer save the world by the means He is saving it now, through Grace and Mercy. The future generations prior to the 2nd Coming will have it tough. What we are going through now is peanuts to what they will be going through. Anyway my book can explain alot more. I believe we are heading for the time when Our Lord will convert the whole world. This will come at a great price. But the world will be converted and an era of peace will be granted. This will occur until the Church is succumbed through its own inquity again and then we find ourselves in that situation I had mentioned prior to the 2nd coming. Since the Church had encompass the whole world the situation will be much worse for the sinners will be more plentiful than those we have today.God Bless!
 
The Fathers of the Church have long agreed that the the Spirit of the Antichrist endured through history and was expressed periodically in people like Antiochus Epiphanes and Hitler; however in the last times, the AntiChrist will be an identifiable individual, a man who will “incarnate” Satan himself as he persecutes every Christian on earth.

Before you finish writing your book, you need to read an unusual and little-known book which will give you rare insight into how these metaphors are to be interpreted–you may find yourself re-writing portions of your own book afterward. The author’s style is disconcertingly informal and occasionally annoying because he was writing to his brother-in-law in family letters, which were assembled into a book after his death–he didn’t envision publication when he first started writing. However he was a first-rate greek linguist and and his use of the Book of Daniel to explain the Apocalypse can only be Divinely Inspired. I don’t read greek, but the simple way the author shows how the greek words’ meanings are quite specific, if you take your time reading his explanations–he’s a good teacher.

In 2006 I reviewed this book on its Amazon.com listing; I copy my review here:

“The Apocalypse–Letter by Letter: A Literary Analysis of the Book of Revelation”
by Steven Paul
Edition: Paperback
Price: $23.95

5 of 5 people found the following review helpful:
Reading the Signs of the Times: Apocalypse no longer " Greek to me" ,
[September 29, 2006]

". . . The quirky, doughnut-scarfing author of this book is proof positive that God is no respecter of persons when he chooses his Prophets. Steven Paul demonstrates the necessity of translating accurate syntax and metaphor as used in the Book of Daniel in order to understand the deceptively simple language of the Apocalypse. Parsing the Greek of the Book of Revelation accurately results in precise meaning, and thereby a plausible method of interpreting that meaning.

Paul shows how inaccuracies in all previous English translations of the Bible’s last book about things to come has concealed its timely message until now. Though the author posits a couple of incorrect theological conclusions (notably failing to see that the “woman clothed in the Sun” is simultaneously The Church AND the Virgin Mother of God as exemplar of the Church) these flaws do not compromise or detract from the success of his rigorous textual analysis.

Steven Paul’s attention to use of metaphorical and literal statements makes the cryptic book of Revelation astoundingly comprehensible in the contemporary context; and useful as a practical guide for “reading the signs of our times”, explaining the spiritual zeitgeist precipitating the rise of the Anti-Christ–.

Coincidentally, I read this book just after reading “Hope of the Wicked” by Ted Flynn: Steven Paul’s book delineates the spiritual dynamic, --and Flynn’s the socio-political arena where history is forged by current events. Reading both these books in conjunction makes for an eerie but coherent picture of what will soon be upon us. Fear not; --but hold on to your hats; it’s gonna get worse before it gets better . . . ."
 
The problem with the interpretation given is that there is nothing in the text or tradition to suggest such an interpretation.

THis is a case of READING INTO the text an interpretation you want to fulfill a deep need for there to be only one church. I know, because I have thought of what you said about the Eucharist endlessly.

But any unity we seek with the Orthodox must be based on TRUTH. The TRUTH of history, the TRUTH of the Fathers and the Truth of the Scriptures.

We cannot have peace at any price; it is disingenuous.

It is necessary for those who are wrong ( only one can be wrong because Christ would not let his true church believe a lie) to acknowledge their error and to establish a communion of respect, submission (within reasonable limits, not serfdom) and mutual acknowledgement of the inadequacy of language.

The more I read the Orthodox writers and the Roman Catholic writers, it’s like I get more “in the head” of the other side, and we are both saying the same thing but we only want OUR side to be right.
 
Only God can “square this circle” but with God nothing is impossible: and one day the Church of the East and of the West will be harmoniously one, with no doctrinal differences. We do not know when and how this will be, but we know that it will be and so I am at peace praying for the eventual Christian unity which will see the end of all heresy among honest men of good will. Peace, my brother !
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top