The "Ugly Vestments War"

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malphono said:
It was the wording.
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This is what I wrote:
I saw the youtube clip and I have a few problems with it, mainly that it included non-Catholics as examples of ugly vestments, including the current head of the Episcopal church. I think that’s unfair and misleading. I also saw a pair of what looked like Eastern vestments. If those are meant as examples of “ugly vestments” then I disagree.
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I’m sorry but I still don’t see how that reads as “intimation that ugly vestments are more likely to crop-up among the Episcopalians, Lutherans, etc, than among Catholics.”. I even defended what appeared to be Eastern vestments on that clip.
malphono said:
Anyway, the fact remains that the reason “liturgical Protestants” (as I call them) wear vestments at all is because of their “roots” so-to-speak. It’s interesting that the famous fiddleback (of which I have never been a fan) was not particularly popular with them. They tended to retain a modified conical (using traditional fabrics and ornamentation) style, or the Gothic style.
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It’s worth remembering that “liturgical Protestants” (I assume you mean Anglican, Luttherans, etc.) mostly abandoned vestments after the Reformation (although I believe Anglicans kept wearing the surplice and in at least some Anglican cathedrals clergy wore copes, but please correct me if I’m wrong). Some Anglicans didn’t begin to adopt eucharistic vestments again until the Ritualist movement of the 19th century and then it was some, not all, and those who did often got in trouble for doing so. I believe most other Protestants didn’t begin to adopt them until the 20th century and they were also influenced by the liturgical movements in the Catholic Church.

The Anglo-Catholics that looked to the medieval English church for inspiration tended to adopt Gothic-type chasubles but others, the ones in the 19th and early 20th century that modeled themselves on current (for the time) Catholic practice, did adopt fiddlebacks and other baroque-style vestments. If you do a web search you can see current examples, like this picture from an Anglican church in London, All Saints Margaret Street.

Even among Anglicans there are still “low church” or “Evangelical” Anglicans that use little or no vestments and ceremony.
malphono said:
It was really only after the post-conciliar liturgical free-for-all in the RCC that the others began adopting the “modern” style.
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Well, most others didn’t begin adopting vestments until around the time of the liturgical movements in the Catholic Church, so they were bound to be influence by what was visible and available at the time, just as some Anglo-Catholics of the 19th century were influenced what was visible and available in the Latin Rite of the Catholic Church back then.
malphono said:
Sure, some of the “modern” stuff is conical (or medieval, as you put it) in cut, but the fabrics and decoration are something else again. It’s the combination of bad fabric, loud colors, and “abstract” (for lack of a better word that I can use here) ornamentation that I really find hideous. The cut is totally secondary.
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I don’t have a strong preference of one particular style over the other and I think most posters on this thread, including myself, believe in good design and materials.

I think the reason we see so many vestments of the kind we don’t like is affordability, availability, and accesibility. If there was a source of nice looking vestments that were affordable to a cash-strapped, budget-conscious parish that was a well know supplier that made ordering or commisioning relatively easy and painless then I think we would see nicer vestments in our churches.

But as others have already pointed out, most of what we might consider beautiful or gorgeous is expensive and difficult to make or obtain.
malphono said:
In Western vestments, I personally prefer the full Gothic style. The medieval conical style was very heavy and unwieldy which is why it gave way to the much lighter and more flowing Gothic in the first place. How the Gothic somehow morphed into the Boromean, which was also heavy and unwieldy (and, I’m told, stiff) is beyond me. The fiddleback is a development of the Boromean and I suppose it became popular because it allowed for more unrestricted movement. I find it interesting, though, that the Gothic style experienced a renaissance of sorts in the 20th century.
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I’ve already written that I like different styles (I think conical styles, while a bit unwieldy, can drape beautifully ) and I think there should be room for personal preferences. I still agree with others that if we have a strong preference, and would like to see that preference adopted more frequently, we have to contribute somehow. Either take up vestment making, or support skilled makers of vestments, or support the training and education of skilled vestment makers, or pay for vestments for our parishes, or all of the above.
 
Tepeyac said:
But as others have already pointed out, most of what we might consider beautiful or gorgeous is expensive and difficult to make or obtain.
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Many old but beautiful and still usable examples are available:

cgi.ebay.com/CATHOLIC-CHURCH-VESTMENT-CHASUBLE-GREEN_W0QQitemZ200391775080QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item2ea847d368

Many new ones, made in India, Latin America, Poland, etc. and very affordable:

shop.ebay.com/?_from=R40&_trksid=p3907.m38.l1313&_nkw=chasuble&_sacat=See-All-Categories
 
Lepanto said:
Many old but beautiful and still usable examples are available:

cgi.ebay.com/CATHOLIC-CHURCH-VESTMENT-CHASUBLE-GREEN_W0QQitemZ200391775080QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item2ea847d368

Many new ones, made in India, Latin America, Poland, etc. and very affordable:

shop.ebay.com/?_from=R40&_trksid=p3907.m38.l1313&_nkw=chasuble&_sacat=See-All-Categories
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Ebay is great, though it’s worth remembering not every priest is on the “interwebz” yet or comfortable bidding. This is where interested parishioners can help, offering to bid if the priest is not able to or comfortable going on line. I note that on the second link the second and third results that come up for me are really inexpensive but probably too “modern” or not nice enough for some people. In my opinion the first and the fourth are a bit nicer but are a this moment becoming more expensive ($93 and $120.50 at this moment).
 
malphono said:
It was the wording.

Anyway, the fact remains that the reason “liturgical Protestants” (as I call them) wear vestments at all is because of their “roots” so-to-speak. It’s interesting that the famous fiddleback (of which I have never been a fan) was not particularly popular with them. They tended to retain a modified conical (using traditional fabrics and ornamentation) style, or the Gothic style. It was really only after the post-conciliar liturgical free-for-all in the RCC that the others began adopting the “modern” style. Sure, some of the “modern” stuff is conical (or medieval, as you put it) in cut, but the fabrics and decoration are something else again. It’s the combination of bad fabric, loud colors, and “abstract” (for lack of a better word that I can use here) ornamentation that I really find hideous. The cut is totally secondary.

In Western vestments, I personally prefer the full Gothic style. The medieval conical style was very heavy and unwieldy which is why it gave way to the much lighter and more flowing Gothic in the first place. How the Gothic somehow morphed into the Boromean, which was also heavy and unwieldy (and, I’m told, stiff) is beyond me. The fiddleback is a development of the Borromean and I suppose it became popular because it allowed for more unrestricted movement. I find it interesting, though, that the Gothic style experienced a renaissance of sorts in the 20th century.
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Chasubles were originally a reserved nicer version of men’s outwear that was essentially an oval piece of cloth with a hole cut for the head. It was the equivalent of a “Sunday best” coat. It wasn’t a shield. It was more like a poncho.

I think that the stiffness originally came in because a sturdy backing fabric was needed to support extensive goldwork (which sometimes incorporated pearls or even gemstones) that covered the entire vestment. An unbacked silk fabric couldn’t support that much weight without tearing, particularly not with the all those little stiches puncturing it. On top of that, real-gold threads don’t stand alot of flexing without the gold that covers the core becoming marred. Even during construction of the vestment itself, the handling of the threads have to be done very carefully, to preserve the surface of the thread. The type of canvas that can take that load off of the silk and only flexes gently typically has an unattractive reverse side…which means there must be a lining layer, as well. This was also an excellent reason to nip in the sides…it removed weight and allowed more freedom of movement for the poor bishop.

It is my belief that the stiffness and shape became part of the fashion because the laity didn’t understand why such a heavy underlayment and cut was called for in the first place. Not that there is anything wrong with the shape. In other words, the fiddleback shape is fine, but it is my belief that there is no reason that a fiddleback chasuble constructed right now has to be so stiff, if it isn’t covered in goldwork, except that Catholics have come to expect fiddleback chasubles to be stiff. There isn’t a liturgical or aesthetic reason for the stiffness. Where the practical reason becomes non-existent, though, our expectations of what a fiddleback “should” look like still win out.

Again, this is why I like Gothic chasubles that have the extensive ornamentation in the center panel only. A limited degree of stiffness in the center isn’t nearly so noticeable. It allows the periphery of the garment to be made of a fabric with a drape that is more beautiful to look at and more comfortable to wear, regardless of whether the vestment is particularly wide or not. (With a Gothic chasuble, length and width are according to the priest’s size and preference, but I think that somewhat narrower one look better than the super wide ones.) All that is needed is that any decorative edging not wear too much by being flexed all the time, yet look as if it goes with the stiffer central artwork.

I’m also not in the camp that says that all decoration on vestments has to have obvious religious symbolism. Any symbolism needs to be religious, but I don’t think the motifs have to be obviously symbolic. (OTOH, I think that anything created beautifully that does not specifically praise secular man brings to mind the Creator…well-rendered natural motifs “naturally” praise God.)

All religious art, including garments, does need to be in elegant taste, though, or else left off. Trivial, artificial-looking, or badly-rendered artwork or materials are distracting, whether on the priest, the altar, the ambo, or other parts of the church interior. Simplicity and beauty are edifying, but aesthetic distraction and prayer do not mix.
 
My Pastor is BIG. Some of these very ornate vestments would be a distraction on him. He wisely chooses simpler styles. I do think that type of thing should be a consideration. Similarly, some vestments would look overwhelming on a very small priest. Beauty needs balance.
 
CB_Catholic said:
My Pastor is BIG. Some of these very ornate vestments would be a distraction on him. He wisely chooses simpler styles. I do think that type of thing should be a consideration. Similarly, some vestments would look overwhelming on a very small priest. Beauty needs balance.
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Very true. Some of us are upolstered enough…and I count myself in that company. It is a wise priest who chooses chasubles that are graceful on the frame he actually has.

Temperature and humidity are also factors. Sometimes it would be much more merciful if priests had the equivalent of a fiddleback chasuble, only made of a single thickness of a very nice linen, and therefore modestly decorated.
 
CB_Catholic said:
My Pastor is BIG. Some of these very ornate vestments would be a distraction on him. He wisely chooses simpler styles. I do think that type of thing should be a consideration. Similarly, some vestments would look overwhelming on a very small priest. Beauty needs balance.
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Very true. But it is also true that not every priest leaves seminary with a complete set of vestments for every occasion. Often he wears what is available in the parish until he is either given or can afford his own. A parish buying sets of vestments for visiting priests or regular use by whatever sized priest they happen to have assigned to them will most likely buy something ‘one size fits all’ in a simple or generic design. Their biggest worry will be getting something correct for every season (perhaps minus the dreaded ‘pink’ vestments). So again, the issue comes down to the resources available to purchase those nicer vestments.

I think also that we tend to romantize what vestments looked like in an ordinary parish in the past. The examples that remain are usually those from cathedrals. Paintings and descriptions are also those of a priests very best. I very much doubt that someone like St John Vianney had gorgeous gold-threaded vestments for most of his life as a priest. Although I do think that as he became known and certainly when the railroad made a special stop in Ars, someone with the income and taste had beautiful vestments made for him!
 
Mrs_Sally said:
Very true. But it is also true that not every priest leaves seminary with a complete set of vestments for every occasion. Often he wears what is available in the parish until he is either given or can afford his own. A parish buying sets of vestments for visiting priests or regular use by whatever sized priest they happen to have assigned to them will most likely buy something ‘one size fits all’ in a simple or generic design. Their biggest worry will be getting something correct for every season (perhaps minus the dreaded ‘pink’ vestments). So again, the issue comes down to the resources available to purchase those nicer vestments.

I think also that we tend to romantize what vestments looked like in an ordinary parish in the past. The examples that remain are usually those from cathedrals. Paintings and descriptions are also those of a priests very best. I very much doubt that someone like St John Vianney had gorgeous gold-threaded vestments for most of his life as a priest. Although I do think that as he became known and certainly when the railroad made a special stop in Ars, someone with the income and taste had beautiful vestments made for him!
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The styles and churches were more baroque than one might think, though, and certainly up to what is being discussed here. I base this on how ornate some country churches in Oregon were when I was growing up, and the vestments I remember from my childhood. No, not studded with pearls and gemstones, and not as heavily embroidered as the museum-quality relics you’re referring to, but still more ornate than one might think. When it is a point of pride, you’d be surprised what people will pay for. Besides, when polyester is simply not an option, there was no way to convince yourself that cotton damask is just as good as silk. Those were also the days when handmade lace was accessibly priced, and when the nuns were paid as little for making vestments as they were for teaching in the gradeschools.

Properly cared for, silken vestments are very durable and hold their colors very well. Up until recently, people realized that such quality was worth the investment, because it lasts. Also, the knowledge existed for repairing and remaking vestments when the edges were worn or some accident occurred.

The main cost is in the labor, even now. The cost of an intermediately-priced off-the-rack polyester vestment set could pay for a gold-embroidered silk counterpart of incredible quality, if the labor is free…which is essentially what it used to be. Even now, there are those with the talent who find the unique satisfaction and artistic expression of vestment-making to be payment enough. With altar socieites as with choirs, it is the lucky ones that have volunteers of high talent and skill who are generous with their gifts. When talent is lacking, generosity with even a lesser talent is usually thought to be far better than complaining.

But you are right: most altar societies are happy if they can furnish their priest(s) one all-purpose set in good condition, one that covers all the necessary seasons and liturgies. All the rest is gravy.
 
I do agree that ordinary vestements in the past were much better than some of the polyester numbers I have seen. However, as you say, your average small-town parish did not have gem-encrusted or possible even gold-thread embroderied vestements. I’m sure they did have satin, silk, and lace. And yes, they very likely had nuns or parish women who knew how to make lace, mend it, and clean silk and satin. Handwork skills are much rarer these days! In my girl scout troop, I had moms who couldn’t even sew the badges on before I taught them–along with the girls!
 
Mrs_Sally said:
I do agree that ordinary vestements in the past were much better than some of the polyester numbers I have seen. However, as you say, your average small-town parish did not have gem-encrusted or possible even gold-thread embroderied vestements. I’m sure they did have satin, silk, and lace. And yes, they very likely had nuns or parish women who knew how to make lace, mend it, and clean silk and satin. Handwork skills are much rarer these days! In my girl scout troop, I had moms who couldn’t even sew the badges on before I taught them–along with the girls!
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There has been a real resurgence in handicrafts of various kinds lately - knitting is so big we have a knitting cafe here. I wonder if it would be possible to bring some of that into the creation of vestments and things?
 
Mrs_Sally said:
I do agree that ordinary vestements in the past were much better than some of the polyester numbers I have seen. However, as you say, your average small-town parish did not have gem-encrusted or possible even gold-thread embroderied vestements. I’m sure they did have satin, silk, and lace. And yes, they very likely had nuns or parish women who knew how to make lace, mend it, and clean silk and satin. Handwork skills are much rarer these days! In my girl scout troop, I had moms who couldn’t even sew the badges on before I taught them–along with the girls!
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On the topic of handwork skills, you are very right about that. There was a time when most young women would know how to make a white sauce, temper an egg for a custard, sew on a button, and handstich a hem. Now anyone who knows this stuff had better teach it to all their kids and grandkids, because there’s no telling if future spouses will have a clue about these things.

There is the issue of available time, too. There are many families who, once their children are in school, need two jobs, particularly if they are making the sacrifice of sending all those kids through Catholic schools. There are quite a few women in the parish of my childhood who still know how to sew and do handwork, but they don’t do much of it, because of lack of time. Plus, there is TV to occupy the mind. The old fancyworks booth at the church dinner was retired 20 years ago.

The good news is that there is a resurgence in interest in the high-end textile arts: goldwork, hand-embroidery, lace work, and the like. The old vestment-making texts, with techniques, examples, and patterns, written in the late 1800s and early 1900s are being digitized, so as not to be lost, as well. So there is some good news.

Besides that, beautiful does not have to be elaborate, either. Like wedding gowns, it only takes quality materials and a rather small amount of well-wrought detailing to make a truly beautiful garment. It is the tacky efforts, some far more time-consuming than the more elegant ones, that are the problem. That’s the nature of art. When the artistic tastes go down in general, it will show up in the sacred art, too. I don’t know how that is to be helped, except to resurrect art education. Dispensing with the “frills” in education will have its cost, I suppose.
 
I make a point of commenting whenever our priest wears lovely vestments, saying how lovely they are and thanking him. One priest who frequently says Mass tho is not assigned to us usually tells me “I just found it in the back of the cupboard.” He also seems to often “find” a surplice which has lace at the hems. Barely shows but is a touch I do appreciate. I think positive feedback can’t hurt. (Most men have diminished fashion sense to begin with, right? 😉 )

Thankfully in the Eastern churches the vestments are always gorgeous, even when “plain”.
 
facebook.com/home.php?#/album.php?aid=8&id=100000510990207

The above is a link to my facebook page, with some more pictures of vestments made by my lovely wife. She is a skilled seamstress and has attended a class at a convent on vestment making. We undertook this project, I guess you could say, as a way of enlisting in the “pretty vestment” forces in the Ugly Vestment War.

They are for sale at a reasonable price. They are synthetic fabric with metallic thread and metallic trim. So far we have only fiddlebacks. Anyone who is interested, feel free to send me a private message.

Jewel encrustment costs extra!🙂

 
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