The Ultimate Loophole?

  • Thread starter Thread starter MarianD
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
puzzleannie said:
there is no loophole, the sacraments work according their work, they do what they say. Baptism removes all sin, actual (what you commit) and original no matter when it is received. Confirmation strengthens the grace of the Holy Spirit received in baptism and confers His special gifts to build up the Christian for the demands of discipleship. Confirmation does not remove sin. One must be in the state of sanctifying grace to receive it, or to benefit from it.

Yes it is true even on one’s deathbed one can experience conversion, or even at the moment of death there is even a possibility of baptism of desire. That is not a loophole, that is the essence of Christ’s saving grace.

read the parable of the workers in the vineyard. they all worked for the agreed upon wage, and all received that wage whether they worked 1 hour or 12.

and yes it was more common in the early days of the Church to gamble and wait until one was close to death to ask for baptism, a practice the Church strenuously addressed through better catechesis as soon as Constantine and most of his successors now allowed the Church to operate openly. As a matter of fact, before the persecutions ended, baptism was often quite likely to be followed by persecution and death, and the anointing of confirmation strengthened the new Christian to face that possibility with fortitude.

the next obvious question is “you gotta problem with that?”
Why would a Christian begrudge another convert receiving God’s mercy when it should be a cause of rejoicing?
Click to expand...
You didn’t address the loophole. You simply stated why people in the early Church did it, but didn’t mention why people in the Middle Ages and people even today still do it.

Yes, there are people who convert on their deathbed. But then there are people who believe and yet don’t want to be bound by the obligation of sinlessness, so they delay their baptism. Perhaps not until their deathbed, but maybe until next year or something so they can have their own Mardi Gras celebration.

Again, simply stating “the person who delays his/her baptism simply didn’t care” is oversimplifying the complexity of the human struggle with sin. Sometimes it isn’t as simple as “I don’t care about God”. Sometimes it truly is a struggle with most people in the world.

And I’ve never heard of the requirement that one must love God and/or truly care about Him in order to be baptized with water. Infant baptism is encouraged, and infants are incapable of even knowing who God is.

I’m not saying I’ll do this. I’m simply stating that there are people who do.
 
MarianD said:
You didn’t address the loophole.
Click to expand...
This was addressed.

puzzleannie stated it is the way the Sacraments work.

Did you read the Scripture she suggested?

I do not believe that this is something that a lot of people are doing today. If show it shows a defect in their faith and maybe they should be waiting.
 
I think this whole thing is “loophole” only if we view sin through a legalistic POV. If one trusts only in the cleansing nature of the sacrament(s), then one is forgetting the mandate from our Lord to “be Holy” (or at least strive for holiness).

It’s looking to the sacraments as a cheap source of grace. One must be contrite, for sure, but also make an effort not to sin again.
 
MarianD said:
Has anyone noticed this loophole before, and how has the Church closed it?

I think the earliest person to known have used this loophole is Constantine I (which is why I’m glad the Catholic Church doesn’t consider him a Saint).

Basically, here’s the loophole:
  • Sins are washed away through Baptism
  • Sins are also removed through Confirmation
  • Therefore, it is possible for one to believe 100% in Christ, sin as much as he/she wants, and get Baptized and/or Confirmed while one his/her deathbed to remove the sins he/she committed while in health
Now the most common response to this loophole that I’ve heard is “Well if one really cared about Christ, that person wouldn’t sin”. Such an argument is weak to say the least, oversimplifies the complexity of the human struggle with sin, and mimics the faith-only Protestant argument (“if one really had faith, then that person would do good works, but faith is the only thing that saves us”).

Another response I could think of is “presumption is a sin”. While this is true, sins are washed away through Baptism and removed through Confirmation, so the sin of presumption would be removed as well.

So, in theory, I could commit as many sins as I want before I am confirmed, knowing that through my confirmation, these sins will be removed. Not saying I would do that, but I’m saying that it seems like I can.

So what’s the Church’s way of closing this loophole?
Click to expand...
There are no loopholes with God,

if someone were to take this approach, God could very well take them beforehand(which has happened),
even if someone were baptized before death, if they had lived a life of voluntary sin with the intention of getting baptized after living such a life, God would not forgive them, because they wouldn’t be seeking forgiveness, they would only be seeking a free ride and a free ticket into heaven…which does not exist…

look at it this way, it’s the same thing as purposely sinning with the intention of just going to confession later, it is presuming upon Gods mercy, and it’s the same with baptism,

as far as what the church teaches, they teach that baptism will not take away “actual” sins unless you are sorry for them…

God is not a machine, He does not work according to the law, but instead the law works according to Him,
the way to heaven is by loving God, if you do not love God, you will not even want to go to heaven,
and we love God in what we do, not in what we desire, how much we love God shows in our actions, and if someone truly loved God, they would not even want to sin at all(i’m not saying that they would not sin, but that they would not want to)…

God does not warn us against sin “just because”, He warns us against it because He loves us so much! sin is bad for us, it does not make us happy, it makes us empty and miserable, we can only be truly happy with what we were created for - God.
a life of sin will leave you empty and send you to hell, God has warned us time and time again, so we really have no one to blame but ourselves when we lose our souls…
this life is not a game, we are not here to be happy, we are here to prove our love to God and grow in our love for Him, those who wish to seek their happiness in this life by sinful means, they prove that they do not love God, and that they are not all that concerned with going to heaven…

it’s not baptism that gets you into heaven, it’s love,
God is all knowing, we can’t fool Him,

ok? hope this helps, take care.
 
MarianD said:
You didn’t address the loophole. You simply stated why people in the early Church did it, but didn’t mention why people in the Middle Ages and people even today still do it.

Yes, there are people who convert on their deathbed. But then there are people who believe and yet don’t want to be bound by the obligation of sinlessness, so they delay their baptism. Perhaps not until their deathbed, but maybe until next year or something so they can have their own Mardi Gras celebration.

Again, simply stating “the person who delays his/her baptism simply didn’t care” is oversimplifying the complexity of the human struggle with sin. Sometimes it isn’t as simple as “I don’t care about God”. Sometimes it truly is a struggle with most people in the world.

And I’ve never heard of the requirement that one must love God and/or truly care about Him in order to be baptized with water. Infant baptism is encouraged, and infants are incapable of even knowing who God is.

I’m not saying I’ll do this. I’m simply stating that there are people who do.
Click to expand...
God will know your intent and send you to hell. It really is that simple and He has the final Word.

This sounds like that movie with Matt Damen and Ben Aflik playing angels trying to get back into heaven.
 
PAboy57 said:
God will know your intent and send you to hell.
Click to expand...
God doesn’t send anyone to hell. People send themselves to hell by choosing to love only themselves.

Someone who obstinately refuses to be baptized is refusing communion with the Church and is so acting out of self-love.
 
Cat_Herder said:
God doesn’t send anyone to hell. People send themselves to hell by choosing to love only themselves.

Someone who obstinately refuses to be baptized is refusing communion with the Church and is so acting out of self-love.
Click to expand...
You are correct. God will exclude your name from the book of life. So there never was nor will there ever be a loophole.
 
MarianD said:
You didn’t address the loophole. You simply stated why people in the early Church did it, but didn’t mention why people in the Middle Ages and people even today still do it.

Y.
Click to expand...
yes I did address it
there is no loophole
that is how the sacraments operate
yes there are probably some people with a “I know exactly when I am going to die and I will convert 10 minutes beforehand mentality” but that is not a loophole in the sacraments, that is called “stoooopid”. Why are people stupid about anything? Jesus warned about that attitude in parables as well, such as about the man who built new barns to hold all his wealth yet he died that night, unrepentent. Do you think someone who asks for the sacraments without intent to convert is fooling God? Do you think at the moment of judgement when he is face to face with God he will not see the fallacy himself?
 
StrawberryJam said:
?

Is this a fear based belief then?
Click to expand...
There are some things we should fear. Like, for instance, dying in a state of mortal sin. In fact, I can’t think of anything we should fear more. The remedy is never to stop praying for final perseverance.
 
Victorious said:
There are some things we should fear. Like, for instance, dying in a state of mortal sin. In fact, I can’t think of anything we should fear more. The remedy is never to stop praying for final perseverance.
Click to expand...
The remedy to what?

Desire of an eternal afterlife is so important? The fear of eternal hell is so important?
Both things no one knows is for certain.

Leaving many to leave things undone that could be done now to help more now.😦
 
Victorious said:
:banghead:
Click to expand...
I take it we should all know that an aferlife of heaven or hell is for certain, and if we dare to ask if it is not a sound thought we should be faced with people who have such logic and love of Jesus to pound and bang their heads on a brick wall for a reason we shall never know why untill it is properly explained to us why they do such a thing.

Please, stop doing that. It does not make your point any more valid in doing so.

Nor will it mock me in doing so.

It simply exposes you for not being able to step up to the plate and answer. This is Catholic Answers Forums. Not Catholics who can not take the heat forums.
 
StrawberryJam said:
The remedy to what?

Desire of an eternal afterlife is so important? The fear of eternal hell is so important?
Both things no one knows is for certain.
Click to expand...
The existence of God is objectively provable from science; the existence of an afterlife is objectively proven by that and by the ultimate irreducibility of individual identity.

I will explain the latter. A cloned mouse does not share the memories or personality of the mouse from which it came. Hence, the mouse has a soul which is not copied over by the cloning process. However, there is no mouse heaven or mouse hell; the mouse’s soul is mortal. This is evident by the fact that a mouse cannot understand immortal concepts such as justice, law, and God.

Humans can. Because justice, law and God all exist eternally and because humans can understand these things, then the human soul is also immortal.

Death is just the decomposition of a complex object into its parts. Some parts are not decomposable into smaller parts; light particles, for example, do not decompose. Since one of the parts of a human being is an immortal soul, and souls do not decompose, the human soul must go somewhere after the body decomposes. Et voila.
 
Cat_Herder said:
The existence of God is objectively provable from science; the existence of an afterlife is objectively proven by that and by the ultimate irreducibility of individual identity.

I will explain the latter. A cloned mouse does not share the memories or personality of the mouse from which it came. Hence, the mouse has a soul which is not copied over by the cloning process. However, there is no mouse heaven or mouse hell; the mouse’s soul is mortal. This is evident by the fact that a mouse cannot understand immortal concepts such as justice, law, and God.

Humans can. Because justice, law and God all exist eternally and because humans can understand these things, then the human soul is also immortal.

Death is just the decomposition of a complex object into its parts. Some parts are not decomposable into smaller parts; light particles, for example, do not decompose. Since one of the parts of a human being is an immortal soul, and souls do not decompose, the human soul must go somewhere after the body decomposes. Et voila.
Click to expand...
What are you trying to say here? That a child has shared memories from which it came? Or personalitiy from which it came?

Correct me if I misunderstand the mishmash you posted here.
 
Cat_Herder said:
I didn’t say that human souls were shared. I said they were immortal.
Click to expand...
I wish you had just come out and said such a thing.

Please review the claims you made. I really don’t understand how theists can do this and still remain credible to anyone.
 
StrawberryJam said:
I wish you had just come out and said such a thing.

Please review the claims you made. I really don’t understand how theists can do this and still remain credible to anyone.
Click to expand...
What do you find not to be credible? The existence of God being demonstrable through science?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top