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Montalban
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This was the same error of ‘logic’ Origen made, so you’re argument is not original.
We Orthodox have ‘solved’ this by understanding that there’s a difference between what God *is *and what God does, or to put it in a more Orthodox sense, between His *essence *and His energies.
God therefore was always Creator. St. Gregory Palamas was one of the major thinkers in this.
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Mag_Uidhir
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I’m so glad to hear of this great Orthodox miracle. AMEN.
And the Trinity ? solve that.
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Montalban
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paarsurrey
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Hi
But Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, the PromisedMessiah 1835-1908 had Word of revelation from GodAllahYHWH and he announced it publicly. I give hereunder an excerpt from one of his books:
alislam.org/books/philosophy/5q2.html
"I would be guilty of doing great wrong to my fellow beings if I were not to declare at this stage that divine bounty has bestowed upon me the status which I have just defined and has honoured me with the kind of converse the features of which I have just set out in detail, so that I should bestow sight upon the blind and should guide the seekers of the One Who has been so far lost, and should give to those who accept the truth the good news of that holy fountain of which many speak but which few find.
I wish to assure the listeners that the God, meeting with Whom is the salvation and eternal welfare of man, cannot be found without following the Holy Quran. Would that the people were to see that which I have seen, and were to hear that which I have heard? And should lay aside mere tales and should run to the truth. The cleansing water which removes all doubt, that mirror through which that Supreme Being can be seen, is converse with the Divine that I have just mentioned.
Let him whose soul seeks the truth arise and search. I tell you truly that if souls are charged with true seeking and hearts develop true thirst, people would search for that way and would seek that path. How can that way be discovered, and how can the intervening veil be removed ? I assure all seekers that it is Islam alone which conveys the good news of that path. All other people have since long sealed up divine revelation.
Be sure, however, that this seal is not imposed by God, but is an excuse that is put forward by man on account of his privation. Be sure that as it is not possible that we should be able to see without eyes, or should be able to hear without ears, or should be able to speak without a tongue, in the same way it is not possible that without the help of the Quran we should be able to behold the countenance of the True Beloved. I was young and am now old but I have not encountered anyone who has quaffed the cup of this visible understanding except out of this holy fountain.
The Source of Perfect Knowledge is Divine Revelation
Dear ones, no one can fight God’s designs. Be sure that the source of perfect knowledge is divine revelation which is bestowed on the holy prophets of God. Therefore God, Who is the ocean of grace, did not design that divine revelation should be sealed up for the future and the world should thus be destroyed.
The doors of His revelation and converse are always open. If you seek them along their proper ways you will find them easily. The water of life has come down from heaven and has stopped at its proper place. What must you do, so that you might drink of it ? You should, by some means or the other, arrive at that fountain and should put your mouth to it so that you might be filled with the water of life.
The entire good fortune of a person consists in this that he should run in the direction in which he perceives that light, and should adopt the way in which he discovers a sign of the Friend Who has been lost. You have observed that light always descends from heaven and falls upon the earth. In the same way the true light of guidance also descends from heaven. Man’s own devices and his own conjectures cannot bestow true understanding upon him.
Can you behold God without His manifestation ? Can you see in the dark without the help of heavenly light; if you can you may perhaps see in this case also. But our eyes, though in perfect condition, depend on heavenly light; and our ears, though they can hear perfectly, depend upon the air which circulates under divine direction. That god is not true who is silent and leaves everything to our conjectures. The Perfect and Living God is He Who manifests Himself on His own.
At this time also He has designed to disclose His own Being. The windows of heaven are about to open, the day is about to dawn. Blessed are those who should rise up and seek the True God, the One Who is not overtaken by any calamity, the brilliance of Whose Glory is never dimmed. It is said in the Holy Quran: meaning that all the light of the heavens and the earth proceeds from God and lights up everything. He is the Sun that bestows light upon the sun, and He is the life of all the animates in the earth. He is the True Living God. Blessed are those who accept Him (24:36)."Unquote
Thanks
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rossum
Guest
I still do not accept a Creator without any creation. At best you have a “creator-to-be”, but not a Creator. If God was always Creator, then creation has also always existed. Since God is eternal this also implies an eternal creation and hence no need for a Creator at all - the universe is eternal in and of itself so a Creator is superfluous.
We can define something as eternal if there is no time at which that thing does not exist. The concept of “eternal” is dependent on the concept of time. Any eternal God is by His very nature also dependent on the existence of time. An eternal God must be dependent on the prior existence of time. Without time we have no way to determine if that being is eternal or not.
Nagarjuna was one of the major thinkers in this.
rossum
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paarsurrey
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Hi
Thank you for a good post:
I however don’t agree with the contents of your post.
- We Muslims don’t believe that GodAllahYHWH has stopped creating things; no he has not stopped it since this is one of his attributes. All attributes are inter-connected, I agree that if He cannot create now, then He is ultimately proven dead, and we can do without Him.
- But that is not the case, he is always creating, though we cannot observe it, we don’t have tools to comprehend that. We don’t know the vastness of the Universe so we cannot prove that he is not creating right now.
- Time is also created by GodAllahYHWH, so we know it from other things created by him and set into motion. Time is only a human concept for comprehension, for GodAllahYHWH there is absoluteness which is beyond our time and space.
- I just quote some verses from Quran; the pristine Word of GodAllahYHWH, the most secure and protected Revelation in existence today.
[55:28] And there will abide for ever only the Person of thy Lord, Master of Glory and Honour.
[55:29] Which, then, of the favours of your Lord will ye twain, deny?
[55:30] Of Him do beg all that are in the heavens and the earth. Everyday He reveals himself in a different state.
Unquote
So neither has He stopped creating, nor has He stopped caring for already created.
Thanks
The ultimate truth is that there is nothing but Truth
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Montalban
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What’s the difference between a ‘creator’ and a ‘creator-to-be’? They’re both creators, aren’t they? What the difference is is creation, not having been created.
No. If he were beyond time, then eternity would still apply, because he would always be, because there is no ‘then, and before’, but just ‘being’.
For if time were created, it has a beginning, and what existed before that beginning would be ‘eternal’.
Look at the top definition for eternal
- without beginning or end; lasting forever; always existing
dictionary.reference.com/browse/eternal
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rossum
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You have answered your own question. If God was a creator-to-be then the universe would not exist. If God is a Creator then the universe does exist. The difference is obvious. A creator-to-be cannot be a Creator in the absence of any creation.
Something is eternal if, and only if, there is no time at which that something does not exist. In the absence of time we cannot determine whether or not something is eternal, any more than in the absence of light we can determine if something is blue. “Eternal” is dependent on time and is defined in terms of time. How can it not be? In your own definition you used the word “always”. How can you define “always” without using the concept of time?
Again you are using time based words in the absence of time. How can something be “before” in the absence of time? We can measure time in seconds. We all agree that 10 seconds is before 15 seconds. However if there is no time then we can have no number of seconds: is purple seconds before or after square seconds? The concepts of “before” and “after” require the existence of time. Time is eternal by definition because “there is no time when time does not exist”.
rossum
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rossum
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Thank you.
My point is about before God/Allah/YHWH started creating. In the absence of any creation, that is before He started, He was not a Creator.
If He is “always” creating, then He requires the existence of time since “always” has no meaning in the absence of time.
How do you know that it was God/Allah/YHWH who created time and not the other way round? Cause and effect (Creator and created) are distinguished from one another by the fact that the cause (Creator) exists before the effect (created). Without time there is no “before” so we cannot say which of the two is cause and which is effect. How can you distinguish?
The Buddha said that all compound things are impermanent.
If He is permanent then He cannot be compound. That presents many difficulties.
My point applied to the period before He started creating.
You already know my views on that
rossum
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Montalban
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But I don’t believe that there’s a difference. You do. I don’t believe someone who is a ‘creator to be’ is less than a ‘creator who has created’
I’ve already done that, see the reference above. There will be an always state BECAUSE there is no time. There will never be a start, or a beginning.
There was a time when there was no time. Time came into being. It began.
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paarsurrey
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Hi
GodAllahYHWH is from eternity, and creating is one of His attributes, so He is always creating , since time is also created by him, so he is absolute and beyond time. I pointed out in my previous post that time for human beings is in relation to other thing created by Him, so it is not absolute and is only relative for human beings to comprehend things.
Thanks
The ultimate truth is that GodAllahYHWH is absolute Truth and other things exist only in relation to Him and created by HIM.
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Mag_Uidhir
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Why ?Amen in deed.
Originally Posted by Mag Uidhir
And the Trinity ? solve that.
**there’s no need to. **
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JFonseka
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Mag_Uidhir
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Thanks JFonseka;2547674 & Montalban, but what are you talking about ?
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Montalban
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Why what?
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christcnection1
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And how does this diminish the majesty of the God who creates all things, both visible and invisible?
Yes, that’s why I believe God is both outside and inside time. He created time, but is not dependent on it. He always existed, but “always” is a word used to describe something we can’t comprehend. Likewise, “eternity” and “infinite” are words we use because we can’t measure it in the human understanding of time.
“Creator” is a word man uses to describe the great “I AM.” His glory is not dependent on our woefully inadequate use of words to describe Him.
No words we use to describe Him limit Him. They merely show that we are limited. The more we describe Him, the more it reveals how great He is.
The fact you’re showing God can’t do some things, does not reveal His inability. These “shortcomings” are not restrictions at all; rather, it helps to show His greatness.
Indeed, no words I can use here will do Him justice.
Rossum, what is your point in all this? Your reasoning does nothing to diminish our view of God. Frankly, it’s doing just the opposite if that’s your goal.
God Bless,
JB
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JFonseka
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If we can’t comprehend infinity and God is an infinite being, then clearly you cannot fully comprehend Him. What we understand of Him is what is revealed to us.
The definition of omnipotence doesn’t require that it has to fall into human logic to be acceptable or truthful.
The definition of omnipotence doesn’t require that it has to fall into human logic to be acceptable or truthful.
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christcnection1
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rossum
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The problem with rejecting human logic is that I can say “God does not exist because every apple has a core”. And you have no logical way to refute me because human logic does not apply to God.
That position leads nowhere and deprives us of the use of logic to determine truth from falsehood.
rossum
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