The Uncreated Qur'an

[TomaszA]

It’s interesting how some Muslims view the Qur’an. According to the Ashari school of thought, which is mostly upheld by Sunnis, the Qur’an is the eternal and uncreated Word of Allah, and the Word of Allah is of His essence. Therefore, I think the similitude of Isa is not Adam but the Qur’an, and the best way to explain the reality of Jesus to a Muslim is to use the Qur’an as an analogy.

The Qur’an says Jesus is the Word of Allah but Muslims interpret this to mean that Allah said “Be!” and Jesus came into existence. We believe Jesus is the Word of God but in the literal sense, just like Muslims literally believe the Qur’an is the Word of Allah.

I think Muslims could appreciate the mystery of Jesus by considering the mystery of the Qur’an. If the Qur’an is uncreated and timeless, how is it written on paper and recited by men? It’s as if the Qur’an has two components, it’s physical external self which is spoken or written, and an internal uncreated and timeless component. Jesus also has an external “component,” His flesh, and an internal “component” His Divinity, the union of which are also mysterious, or in other words beyond human comprehension.

So when Muslims consider our view of Jesus, they should do so in light of the Qur’an. Of course, not all Muslims hold on to the Ashari view but a good deal do, and that it’s interesting that such an opinion so similar to a Christian one would be popular among Muslims.

Some food for thought,

God bless,
Tomasz

 

[TomaszA]

In other words, Jesus is uncreated and eternal because He is the Word of God, and Muslims shouldn’t be shocked by this.

“In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.”
Hebrews 1:1-3

 

[inJESUS]

So when Muslims consider our view of Jesus, they should do so in light of the Qur’an. Of course, not all Muslims hold on to the Ashari view but a good deal do, and that it’s interesting that such an opinion so similar to a Christian one would be popular among Muslims.

 

[Muslim_Woman]

Salaam/peace

… Muslims will tell you its not an issue of salvation so its’ not important.

 

[TomaszA]

InJesus,

One of your posts inspired me to write this thread, so I owe you some thanks

I see that you are a Maronite, I admire the Maronites for their strong devotion to Christ in face of so much adversity, God bless you and the Church of God in the Middle East!

 

[TomaszA]

Salaam/peace
I was about to write that …thanks for this ans

I’m not sure that’s the case. Saying the Qur’an is created implies that it’s human speech.

Imam al-Tahawi (Ramimullah) said: “The Qur’an is the word of Allah. It came from Him as speech without it being possible to say how…(next paragraph): It is not created, as is the speech of human beings, and anyone who hears it and claims that it is human speech has become an unbeliever. Allah warns him and censures him and threatens him with Fire when He says, Exalted is He: ‘I will burn him in the Fire.’ [al-Muddaththir 74:26] When Allah threatens with the Fire those who say ‘This is just human speech’ [al- Muddaththir 74:25] we know for certain that it is speech of the Creator of mankind and it is totally unlike the speech of mankind.”
From: geocities.com/~abdulwahid/muslimarticles/ashari.html

The point I’m really driving at is that it’s not shirk to say Jesus is uncreated and eternal because He is the Word of God.

 

[inJESUS]

Salaam/peace

you welcome but it is not important how much it is important for you…the importance lies in the argument itself so even if you don’t care a bit about this topic, it is still a Sunni belief and we are discussing the belief, not how much importance you accord to it…and since i know Islamic answers because i know the background, i didn’t mean to just anticipate your answer, but it was a hint to my hoping you won’t answer as such…but since you did, i had to clarify that such answers do not change the fact that the belief is there and this is what’s being discussed.

not the Prophet , it’s the God Almighty who says so.

if you believe so, but since i do believe God is all-knowing, i could’t say what you believe in.

They respect all the Prophets but worship none but God.

good but this doesn’t serve the topic…can you get a bit deeper into the topic of the uncreatedness of the Quran?

Oh and Tomas, thank you and God bless you.

 

[TomaszA]

Oh and Tomas, thank you and God bless you.

 

[inJESUS]

As i told you Tomas, when things get deeper the answers decrease but let’s see…

 

[bpbasilphx]

Only God is uncreated.

And now it seems the Mahometans say that Coran is uncreated.

That means they believe in 2 deities.

I confess there is NO GOD but Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and Jesus is God Incarnate risen from the dead!

 

[Muslim_Woman]

Salaam/peace

…

That means they believe in 2 deities.

Muslims don’t pray to Quran or Muhammed (p) . We pray to God only like this :

In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

Praise be to Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds;

Most Gracious, Most Merciful;

Master of the Day of Judgment.

Thee do we worship, and Thine aid we seek.

Show us the straight way,

The way of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy Grace, those whose (portion) is not wrath, and who go not astray.

 

[ralphinal]

Was the Qur’an created or not? It is a simple question, Muslim Woman. Why do you avoid it?

 

[Muslim_Woman]

Salaam/peace

Was the Qur’an created or not? It is a simple question, Muslim Woman. Why do you avoid it?

Time is limited in this world…don’t want to waste it in an unnecessary discussion. On the last day , my salvation won’t depend on this ans. It’s enough for me to know that Quran is from God , it’s the Final holy book , it came to the Seal of the Prophets ( p).

 

[ralphinal]

Salaam/peace

Time is limited in this world…don’t want to waste it in an unnecessary discussion. On the last day , my salvation won’t depend on this ans. It’s enough for me to know that Quran is from God , it’s the Final holy book , it came to the Seal of the Prophets ( p).

In other words, you will not discuss that which destroys a part of your faith.

Is intellectual dishonesty accepted in Islam?

 

[inJESUS]

Muslims don’t like these questions

 

[ralphinal]

Muslims don’t like these questions

I have noticed that.

I have too much Alabama in me just to nod my head and say “Yep. I agree.” I need to see why.

And I have WAY to much to be forced…

In fact, I can’t wait to see what happens when radical Islam meets redneck

 

[cathopologist]

Time is limited in this world…don’t want to waste it in an unnecessary discussion. On the last day , my salvation won’t depend on this ans. It’s enough for me to know that Quran is from God , it’s the Final holy book , it came to the Seal of the Prophets ( p).

It is a very important question since Islam repeatedly claims the Qur’an is the uncreated work of God. We would like to know the reasons behind the Islamic belief.

 

[TomaszA]

Salaam/peace
Time is limited in this world…don’t want to waste it in an unnecessary discussion. On the last day , my salvation won’t depend on this ans. It’s enough for me to know that Quran is from God , it’s the Final holy book , it came to the Seal of the Prophets ( p).

What makes you think your salvation doesn’t depend on it? Saying the Quran is created suggests it’s human speech, which casts you out of the fold of Islam.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

It’s interesting how some Muslims view the Qur’an. According to the Ashari school of thought, which is mostly upheld by Sunnis, the Qur’an is the eternal and uncreated Word of Allah, and the Word of Allah is of His essence. Therefore, I think the similitude of Isa is not Adam but the Qur’an, and the best way to explain the reality of Jesus to a Muslim is to use the Qur’an as an analogy.

The Qur’an says Jesus is the Word of Allah but Muslims interpret this to mean that Allah said “Be!” and Jesus came into existence. We believe Jesus is the Word of God but in the literal sense, just like Muslims literally believe the Qur’an is the Word of Allah.

I think Muslims could appreciate the mystery of Jesus by considering the mystery of the Qur’an. If the Qur’an is uncreated and timeless, how is it written on paper and recited by men? It’s as if the Qur’an has two components, it’s physical external self which is spoken or written, and an internal uncreated and timeless component. Jesus also has an external “component,” His flesh, and an internal “component” His Divinity, the union of which are also mysterious, or in other words beyond human comprehension.

So when Muslims consider our view of Jesus, they should do so in light of the Qur’an. Of course, not all Muslims hold on to the Ashari view but a good deal do, and that it’s interesting that such an opinion so similar to a Christian one would be popular among Muslims.

Some food for thought,

God bless,
Tomasz

Maybe it is of Christian origin - specifically, Syrian Christianity in some form or forms.​

The eternity of the Koran is theologically rather attractive: I think it is almost certainly Jewish in origin: The Koran would then be like the hypostasised Wisdom in Proverbs (which is the Torah - see Wisdom & Ecclesiasticus) For us of course, Jesus Christ is the Torah Personified, & more: He is a fully co-eternal Divine Person.

Your point about comparing Him with the Koran is spot on.

 

[Muslim_Woman]

Salaam/peace

What makes you think your salvation doesn’t depend on it? .

God did not say in Quran that He will ask me this question. Prophet also did not say anything like this

Quran is the words of God & it’s preserved both in heaven & in this earth . God says in Quran , if we don’t assocaite partner with God & we don’t commit any major sins , then He will give us best rewards , Alhamdulillah ( praise be to God only ).

on the last day , we will be questioned on how we spent time here , how we earnt & spent money , what we saw etc etc. Prophet (p) advised us to :

"Take benefit of five before five:

Your youth before your old age,
your health before your sickness,
your wealth before your poverty,
your free time before you are preoccupied, and
your life before your death."

so , why waste time ? Come on Christians , start thinking seriously how Not to worship human or angel dieties

islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?c=Article_C&cid=1203758539201&pagename=Zone-English-Youth%2FYTELayout