The Uncreated Qur'an

[TomaszA]

God did not say in Quran that He will ask me this question. Prophet also did not say anything like this

Surah 74 ayat 25-26 say Allah will send to hell anyone who says the Qur’an is human speech. This suggests the Qur’an is uncreated, therefore anyone who says it is created potentially threatens their salvation.

This is at least how Imam Tahawi interpreted it (see my earlier post), I’m not sure if there is ijma on this issue.

 

[swariffin]

Muslims don’t like these questions

Indeed, they don’t, brother. Because the only logical explanation of the uncreated status of Quran will lead them into the Christian Christology (and eventually the Trinity).

 

[Sister_Amy]

Hi Tomas

inJESUS has brought up this question to me a number of times, and to be honest I really avoid it, and for what I think is good reason. As Muslim Woman has said, this is an intricate matter of aqeedah yet not one which is going to concern the average Muslim. It’s also the kind of question which can trouble a person’s faith.

Here is a similar line of questioning:

Who created the sun? Allaah (God)
Who created the stars? Allaah (God)
Who created the ocean? Allaah (God)
Who created this flower? Allaah (God)

Who created Allaah?

This is the questioning of Shaytaan (Satan.) It leads a person’s thought processes down a dangerous road–do you see? Do you spend much time contemplating “Who created God?”

The questions which you’d like to ask about the Qur’an are similar leading questions.

So I avoid them. And I think Muslim Woman will also avoid them. Because we don’t have answers? Nope. We know the answers, we know what the Qur’an is, and it doesn’t trouble our faith (I hope she doesn’t mind that I speak for her here.)

However, you don’t know the answers. Your view of the Qur’an is not our view of the Qur’an, so questions arise in your mind that don’t even make sense to the Muslim view, which is such a different perspective that it doesn’t even need such silly questions to be asked.

You might ask if the Qur’an is created, or uncreated.

The options lead one to believe it must be either one or the other. But why? The Muslim mind doesn’t think that way, but the Christian mind does.

The Christian mind thinks “Word of God” and might recall the Gospel of John. And so a Christian might come to this conclusion (which is frankly quite bizarre for a Muslim) that the Qur’an in Islam is equivalent to Jesus in Christianity. In fact, early posts in this thread suggested as much.

And it’s precisely because you aren’t able to understand the nature of the Qur’an the way Muslims do, that there is no benefit in a Muslim trying to explain it to you properly. You simply have already refused to understand.

So is the Qur’an created or not?

The Qur’an is revealed, and the Qur’an is uttered.

That is the answer.

So when the great imam of Islam, Ahmad ibn Hanbal, was being tortured for his answer to the very same question, you think that a few words might intimidate me? So as inJESUS knows, I prefer to answer the question in the very same way as did the Imam.

There is no god, but Allah.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Indeed, they don’t, brother. Because the only logical explanation of the uncreated status of Quran will lead them into the Christian Christology (and eventually the Trinity).

That’s actually not true.

Unless you believe that by asking who created God will lead you to become an atheist.

Islam doesn’t need Christianity to explain it. It is in fact when Christians try to use Christianity to explain Islam that they fool themselves, trapping themselves even deeper in the hold of the devil.

 

[Muslim_Woman]

Salaam/peace

Allah will send to hell anyone who says the Qur’an is human speech.

Muslims believe Quran is words of God , came to the Last Prophet (p) through Angel Gabriel (p). Prophet taught & ordered the companions to write & memorise the Quran. The process is simple , I see no reason to debate about it.

Sister Amy : (I hope she doesn’t mind that I speak for her here.)

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[inJESUS]

As Muslim Woman has said, this is an intricate matter of aqeedah yet not one which is going to concern the average Muslim.

at one time, denying the uncreatedness of the Quran meant heresy and lead to death…besides, the point being discussed is not the degree of concern.

So I avoid them. And I think Muslim Woman will also avoid them. Because we don’t have answers? Nope. We know the answers,

 

[inJESUS]

Salaam/peace

Muslims believe Quran is words of God

Muslims believe:

This posting sums up the doctrine of the massive majority of the Muslims, namely the People of the Sunna and the Congregation, concerning the pre-existent, pre-eternal [sic], beginningless, and uncreated nature of the Divine Speech Allah Most High has named al-Qur’an, as held by the Salaf al-Salihun and as formulated by the two Masters, Imam Abu al-Hasan al-Ash`ari and Imam Abu Mansur al-Maturidi and their respective schools.

Ahl al-Sunna agree one and all that the Qur’an is the pre-existent, pre-eternal, uncreated Speech of Allah Most High on the evidence of the Qur’an, the Sunna, and faith-guided reason

livingislam.org/uncrq_e.html

Now since we all know what Muslims believe, the question is : is it associating partners with Allah to believe that His Word/Speech is uncreated, pre-eternal, and pre-existant like Allah?

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Hi Tomas

inJESUS has brought up this question to me a number of times, and to be honest I really avoid it, and for what I think is good reason. As Muslim Woman has said, this is an intricate matter of aqeedah yet not one which is going to concern the average Muslim. It’s also the kind of question which can trouble a person’s faith.

Here is a similar line of questioning:

Who created the sun? Allaah (God)
Who created the stars? Allaah (God)
Who created the ocean? Allaah (God)
Who created this flower? Allaah (God)

Who created Allaah?

This is the questioning of Shaytaan (Satan.) It leads a person’s thought processes down a dangerous road–do you see? Do you spend much time contemplating “Who created God?”

The questions which you’d like to ask about the Qur’an are similar leading questions.

So I avoid them. And I think Muslim Woman will also avoid them. Because we don’t have answers? Nope. We know the answers, we know what the Qur’an is, and it doesn’t trouble our faith (I hope she doesn’t mind that I speak for her here.)

However, you don’t know the answers. Your view of the Qur’an is not our view of the Qur’an, so questions arise in your mind that don’t even make sense to the Muslim view, which is such a different perspective that it doesn’t even need such silly questions to be asked.

You might ask if the Qur’an is created, or uncreated.

The options lead one to believe it must be either one or the other. But why? The Muslim mind doesn’t think that way, but the Christian mind does.

The Christian mind thinks “Word of God” and might recall the Gospel of John. And so a Christian might come to this conclusion (which is frankly quite bizarre for a Muslim) that the Qur’an in Islam is equivalent to Jesus in Christianity. In fact, early posts in this thread suggested as much.

And it’s precisely because you aren’t able to understand the nature of the Qur’an the way Muslims do, that there is no benefit in a Muslim trying to explain it to you properly. You simply have already refused to understand.

So is the Qur’an created or not?

The Qur’an is revealed, and the Qur’an is uttered.

For the record - so is the Eternal Word Who was incarnate as the man Jesus…​

This Word is Uncreated, & eternally Uttered; & in these last times has been revealed.

That is the answer.

So when the great imam of Islam, Ahmad ibn Hanbal, was being tortured for his answer to the very same question, you think that a few words might intimidate me? So as inJESUS knows, I prefer to answer the question in the very same way as did the Imam.

There is no god, but Allah.

 

[Reuben_J]

Salaam/peace

Muslims believe Quran is words of God , came to the Last Prophet (p) through Angel Gabriel (p). Prophet taught & ordered the companions to write & memorise the Quran. The process is simple , I see no reason to debate about it.

Sister Amy : (I hope she doesn’t mind that I speak for her here.)

http://theislampath.com/smf/Smileys/default/barakallah.gif

Nah, it was not angel Gabriel. It was anything but angel Gabriel.

Mohammad encounter with this being, which you think was angel Gabriel, was far from how one should experience it if one actually has such an encounter. Mohammad was harrassed and bullied and forced by this being. Mohammad was pained nearly to the point where he could become insane. This was not an angel of God. Angel of God which brings God’s good news does not cause confusion or anxiety; because God is not of confusion and anxiety. But what happened in Mohammad’s case was an oppression by a demon. It was demonic oppression until Mohammad capitulated. Once Mohammad was controlled by this being he became his tool and agent; and all his lies, Mohammad had to propagate.

Never has it been known for the angel of God to oppress. A true angel of God would bring peace and message of clarity to its recipient. He will not cause the recipient to lose his mind or oppress him/her.

So, nah, it was not angel Gabriel. You been had!

 

[inJESUS]

Muhammad himself said he was being possessed until Khadija gave her fatwa after this very interesting spirit test:

Ismail b. Abu Hakim, a freedman of the family of al-Zubayr, told me on Khadija's authority that she said to the apostle of God, 'O son of my uncle, are you able to tell me about your visitant, when he comes to you?" He replied that he could, and she asked him to tell her when he came. So when Gabriel came to him, as he was wont, the apostle said to Khadija, 'This is Gabriel who has just come to me.' Get up, O son of my uncle,’ she said, and sit by my left thigh.' The apostle did so, and she said, Can you see him?’ Yes,' he said. She said, Then turn around and sit on my right thigh.’ He did so, and she said, Can you see him?' When he said that he could she asked him to move and sit in her lap. When he had done this she again asked if he could see him, and when he said yes, she disclosed her form and cast aside her veil while the apostle was sitting in her lap. Then she said, Can you see him?’ And he replied, No.' She said, O son of my uncle, rejoice and be of good heart, by God he is an angel and not a satan.’

a spirit not ashamed of the lower parts of Khadija but of her face so Khadija’s testimony is that it must be an angel and not satan as Muhammad thought.

Now going back to our question : do Muslims associate partners with Allah when they say the Quran is pre-existent and uncreated ?

 

[Reuben_J]

Muhammad himself said he was being possessed until Khadija gave her fatwa after this very interesting spirit test:

Ismail b. Abu Hakim, a freedman of the family of al-Zubayr, told me on Khadija's authority that she said to the apostle of God, 'O son of my uncle, are you able to tell me about your visitant, when he comes to you?" He replied that he could, and she asked him to tell her when he came. So when Gabriel came to him, as he was wont, the apostle said to Khadija, 'This is Gabriel who has just come to me.' Get up, O son of my uncle,’ she said, and sit by my left thigh.' The apostle did so, and she said, Can you see him?’ Yes,' he said. She said, Then turn around and sit on my right thigh.’ He did so, and she said, Can you see him?' When he said that he could she asked him to move and sit in her lap. When he had done this she again asked if he could see him, and when he said yes, she disclosed her form and cast aside her veil while the apostle was sitting in her lap. Then she said, Can you see him?’ And he replied, No.' She said, O son of my uncle, rejoice and be of good heart, by God he is an angel and not a satan.’

a spirit not ashamed of the lower parts of Khadija but of her face so Khadija’s testimony is that it must be an angel and not satan as Muhammad thought.

Thanks for the supporting evidence.

Now going back to our question : do Muslims associate partners with Allah when they say the Quran is pre-existent and uncreated ?

We don’t seem to get any answer for question like this. But for Muslims’ logic and reasoning which they used to apply to other religions other than themselves, yes, they seem to associate partner with Allah. Then again this is the thing with them. Their mind is on one track only and so cannot see that the very standard they apply to others, they do not apply to themselves.

Talking about the accusation of the corruption of Bible - the same criteria to call the Bible corrupt is never applied to the Quran in the same manner.

 

[Sister_Amy]

at one time, denying the uncreatedness of the Quran meant heresy and lead to death…besides, the point being discussed is not the degree of concern.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Muhammad himself said he was being possessed until Khadija gave her fatwa after this very interesting spirit test:

Ismail b. Abu Hakim, a freedman of the family of al-Zubayr, told me on Khadija's authority that she said to the apostle of God, 'O son of my uncle, are you able to tell me about your visitant, when he comes to you?" He replied that he could, and she asked him to tell her when he came. So when Gabriel came to him, as he was wont, the apostle said to Khadija, 'This is Gabriel who has just come to me.' Get up, O son of my uncle,’ she said, and sit by my left thigh.' The apostle did so, and she said, Can you see him?’ Yes,' he said. She said, Then turn around and sit on my right thigh.’ He did so, and she said, Can you see him?' When he said that he could she asked him to move and sit in her lap. When he had done this she again asked if he could see him, and when he said yes, she disclosed her form and cast aside her veil while the apostle was sitting in her lap. Then she said, Can you see him?’ And he replied, No.' She said, O son of my uncle, rejoice and be of good heart, by God he is an angel and not a satan.’

a spirit not ashamed of the lower parts of Khadija but of her face so Khadija’s testimony is that it must be an angel and not satan as Muhammad thought.

Now going back to our question : do Muslims associate partners with Allah when they say the Quran is pre-existent and uncreated ?

Gave him a fatwa, did she? Khadeejah the mufti. Lame, especially for you.

There is no god except Allaah.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Nah, it was not angel Gabriel. It was anything but angel Gabriel.

Mohammad encounter with this being, which you think was angel Gabriel, was far from how one should experience it if one actually has such an encounter. Mohammad was harrassed and bullied and forced by this being. Mohammad was pained nearly to the point where he could become insane. This was not an angel of God. Angel of God which brings God’s good news does not cause confusion or anxiety; because God is not of confusion and anxiety. But what happened in Mohammad’s case was an oppression by a demon. It was demonic oppression until Mohammad capitulated. Once Mohammad was controlled by this being he became his tool and agent; and all his lies, Mohammad had to propagate.

Never has it been known for the angel of God to oppress. A true angel of God would bring peace and message of clarity to its recipient. He will not cause the recipient to lose his mind or oppress him/her.

So, nah, it was not angel Gabriel. You been had!

Were YOU there?

 

[Sister_Amy]

This is such a silly discussion.

I want to ask a question (for Christians):

Do Christians associate partners wtih God?

 

[Sister_Amy]

I swear, you’re starting to catch on!

Bravo!

 

[bpbasilphx]

**
Do Christians associate partners wtih God?**

No, except in the sense that St. Paul said that we were "fellow laborers with God."

I bear witness there is NO GOD but Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and Jesus is God Incarnate risen from the dead!

 

[swariffin]

This is such a silly discussion.

I want to ask a question (for Christians):

Do Christians associate partners wtih God?

Off course not. God the Father * Words of God * Spirit of God = 1 x 1 x 1 = 1. There is only one God. Who said three God. No Christian ever say there are three Gods. It is you who failed to understand. 1.9 billions catholics and christians in the world has no problem with that.

Now, God is uncreated, surely yes.
Quran is uncreated, surely yes.
God = Quran ???

 

[inJESUS]

Gave him a fatwa, did she? Khadeejah the mufti. .

strange isn’t it that Khadija gives a ruling on whether it was an angel or not? who is she after all to be able to discern spirits and affirm and swear by God that what she says is true? and is her testimony valid as a woman?and is her test a divine one? call it whatever you like if you don’t like the word “fatwa”

 

[inJESUS]

Sister Amy

If I answer it, I’d say no.

And then you would try to organize some long logic to suggest that somehow uncreatedness implies partnership. But I know it doesn’t, so why should I even bother answering the first question?

you already answered you are saying uncreatedness does not imply partnership. So you are basically saying even if the Quran is uncreated, it is not a “partner” to Allah. After all, how can the Word/Speech of Allah be a “partner”? it doen’t make sense right? My question would be , how do you reconcile monotheism with the belief that there exist something that is not Allah but shares the essence of Allah, being uncreated and eternal?