Yes, let’s hope that does not happen here. That was classic Planten, but I do expect better (read: more honest) from Sister Amy.
Awwwwwww.
To this end, I do wish we could discuss topics such as this one without presuming to know what people other than ourselves think, i.e. without talk of the “Christian Mind” vs. the “Muslim Mind”. I…
Up until now I’ve only dabbled in the kind of discussion which is the topic of this thread. And I see where it goes, where posters want it to go. And mostly I just don’t want to go there.
From my perpsective, there are a couple problems. If I go along with you, I might not be able to adequately explain myself. I’m not a bastion of knowledge and there are many things about which I have very little understanding. So while there is a possibility I might help someone to understand the concept, as I see it, there’s actually a far greater likelihood that I will be misunderstood, and taken out of context, and that a majority of the readers of the thread will become even more confused about my views. Additionally, it’s quite possible the discussion would just turn in to an argument, and I’d rather avoid that turn. And lastly, it’s possibly that I might make a mistake in my discussion and say something which is just not true, because of my own ignorance.
A book I have just … This seems to make sense if the majority of Muslims believe the Qur’an to be God’s eternal and uncreated word, whether or not they feel their place in the hereafter is determined by their answer to this question.
I think it’s significant here to point out what precisely the Qur’an describes Jesus as being, and what the Qur’an describes the Qur’an as being.
Jesus: The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah **and His word **which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. (4:171)
The word which the verse refers to is parenthetically inserted in some translations, “Be!” For Allah said “Be!” and thus was Jesus
created.
Anyway, my personal view is that while this question is interesting and important for discussion, it is ultimately a bit sneaky, too. If we Christians do not see the eternal, uncreated nature of Jesus as polytheistic (and we do not), then it is really strange that we should see Muslim belief in eternal, uncreated word as polytheism. In essence, we are arguing from the same position, aren’t we? … They don’t understand our position, and we don’t understand theirs.
Muslims do not believe the Qur’an to be any entity, which acts of its own accord. The comparison more accurately is to say that when a person (you for example) speaks, is his speech created? Do his words take on a character of their own? Or are they words which he
uttered? What he spoke? I think the latter, that it doesn’t make sense to say speech is a creation at all. Therefore the Qur’an, which is speech, is not created. In fact it’s remarkably simple to me, and not really necessary to discuss at all.
Whereas Jesus, according to the Qur’an, is God’s word which he spoke to Mary, the word “Be,” the command for something to come in to existence.
I have gotten into similar polite arguments with some Muslim friends of mine regarding their views on the expansion of Islam in light of Muslims’ (very sensible, in many cases) distrust of Western powers in the Middle East. … To bring Islam is a higher goal than to respect the religions of the people, no matter what the Qur’an says. This is also what they could say about the attitude of Christians, with some degree of correctness.
There are two principles fundamental to Islam of which you should be aware–first, that nobody compelled to accept Islam, and second, that everybody should be permitted to accept Islam if they choose.
How do we get out of this trap so that we can discuss these issues without also compromising what we know to be true? I don’t know, but I hope we can.
I don’t see why we must discuss all things–on some matters we are clearly inept.
What DO you believe about this topic, Sister Amy? I have tried to “lay my cards on the table”, so to speak. I actually don’t have an opinion on the uncreatedness of the Qur’an (doesn’t apply to me, since I don’t follow it, though I do see the point of the questions raised here), but I would be interested to hear your thoughts, free from what you see as leading or loaded questions from inJESUS.
I believe, as I have mentioned before, that the Qur’an is revealed, that it is God’s Speech. And because it is God’s Speech it is “revealed” and “uttered” but it doesn’t make sense to say that it was “created.” So it’s uncreated. Yet it is not an entity, an object of worship in itself, or divine at all except that it was uttered by The Divine. It doesn’t make sense, as I see it, to say that “Speech” is created, most especially God’s Speech, so there is no problem for me to believe that the Qur’an is “uncreated.” It doesn’t cause any conflict, whatsoever, with the concept of monotheism.
And I don’t think that belief of mine really bothers anyone, even inJESUS who keeps bringing it up–but rather, I feel like some people would use it as a platform to attempt to “debunk” the Muslim claims of shirk regarding other religions. I have no interest in playing that game. (And if inJESUS decides to respond to this post in order to argue along that line, I have no intention of answering.)
you are saying uncreatedness does not imply partnership. So you are basically saying even if the Quran is uncreated, it is not a “partner” to Allah. After all, how can the Word/Speech of Allah be a “partner”? it doen’t make sense right? My question would be , how do you reconcile monotheism with the belief that there exist something that is not Allah but shares the essence of Allah, being uncreated and eternal?
