The unitive purpose of sex

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Hi nate, I don’t mean to be condemning. Again if it is unintended it is uninteded.

I did not say anything about culpability, just in general. If we do not know something, we don’t know.🤷

That’s why I suggested she contact Greg Popcak. He would do a better job than I would, surely. 😊
 
I do not understand, having been married 14 years mind you, how a male orgasm outside of intercourse is intended to be procreative for a later date. In can’t be procreative for a later date, it has to be procreative when it happens. :confused:

How are babies made? That is the procreative part. The act must be the same act as if when a baby is conceived.

Since you have been arguing that any marital act is unitive, the procreative part must not be separated. If he is climaxing outside of intercourse, it’s separated. Think Onanism

There is no way you can convince me that assisting your husband to climax outside of intercourse is not masturbation.
Understand what she is trying to say - that in their case, with the medical issues they deal with, that building up the husband in the attempt of intercourse, but not being able to achieve it, and then not allowing him to climax only because of church teachings, will only frustrate the whole process the next time. In their case, in order for them to work on the medical side of things as they work on trying to achieve intercourse, then her husband does indeed need to climax outside of her. So for them, in order to be able to move towards intercourse and being procreative, if not procreation, then climax for her husband is a needed step, even outside of intercourse.

Does that make sense, whether you agree or not?

It may well technically be masturbation, or however they achieve it, but the circumstance does not change. This is a perfect example of where the church needs to tell couples they are allowed to do what their hearts and consciences tell them in prayer with God, not dictate in black and white and say deal with it.
 
Since you have been arguing that any marital act is unitive, the procreative part must not be separated. If he is climaxing outside of intercourse, it’s separated. Think Onanism.
One of the important details that people conveniently toss out with regard to the story of Onan is that Onan was ordered to have children. As such, it doesn’t apply in this case.
 
One of the important details that people conveniently toss out with regard to the story of Onan is that Onan was ordered to have children. As such, it doesn’t apply in this case.
Actually you are wrong. God did not order him to have children. It was Judah who told him to do this. Judah was his father, but after Onan was married no man, father or not would have the right to command him to have a child. Also note that God punished him for “he did”. He did not punish him for he did NOT do which was to not obey his father, even though as I stated before, once married he would not be bound by this any longer. Also if we took this in the context that others who have posted here about how “in general” a marriage has to be ordered towards procreation then God could not have punished Onan because he had not waited to see if he would eventually give Tamar an offspring. Unlikely but he could have had a change of heart.
 
And this is the problem. I agree with you and disaree wholeheatedly with church teachings on sex, that all sex must end in intercourse, no matter what. The problem is also that those teachings cannot and do not address situations like yours. If the church made exceptions for one thing or another, the impression is it would have to make exceptions for everything - gay sex, animals, children, multiple wives. I don’t believe that to be the case, but it is where we are. However, church teachings are what they are, and do not allow for the husband to climax outside his wife. They do not allow for us as couples to decide or even really deal with sexual issues as you seem to be dealing with, or to decide that sexual activities other than intercourse can be bonding and unitive without being procreative, when intercourse and more children are not an option.
See, this is where I think everyone is wrong. The Church only specifies a very limited number of actions as sinful. It does not give an exhaustive list. If you went strictly by the Catechism, the only violations against chastity would be lust, masturbation, fornication, prostitution, rape, homosexual acts, adultery and contraception. The rest of the Catechism gives moral principals to make specific moral judgments with. These tend to be difficult to interpret which is why we end up having a million and one questions about “Is it ok to kiss your girlfriend? Is is a sin to sleep in the same bed with her? Is daydreaming about sex a sin? What if I’m falling asleep or just waking up?”

The Church wisely does not actually address these areas directly. She gives moral principals. Not all of those moral principles for evaluating whether or not an act is chaste is included in the section of regarding chastity. You also have to consider the sections on concupiscence, the formation of conscience, the nature of vice, a person’s culpability, etc., etc, etc.

And yet how many times do we have posters asking “It his a mortal sin?” The truth is that there are only two people who know that answer: You and God. The Church can tell you if it is a grave offense, it can help form your conscience. It can help you to discern between the temptation to deny that something is sinful in order to indulge yourself and that of being overscruplous.

The problem is that we’re the ones demanding a simple rule book. Why do we want that rule book? Because we want to practice our religion by paying our dues and then living our life the way we want to live it. Moreover I think we’re also afraid of being wrong. We don’t trust ourselves to make the right moral judgment. Perhaps part of this is because we don’t always understand the logic of the Church and whenever we disagree we’re encouraged to ignore our disagreement and to blindly follow other people’s consciences. Sometimes I think that is necessary to a degree, but overall our attitude must be theological; faith seeking understanding.

This is why I was not asking if what my husband and I are doing is immoral. This is my husband’s and I’s situation to evaulate. What I was asking about was the intrepretation of the meaning of the word “unity” because how that word is interpreted sort of repositions all the other facts to make a moral judgment with. Its like if I was told to look for all the red cubes and someone kept turning to me and insisting “That is not red. That’s purple.” Well then I need to figure out why that person thinks what I think is red is actually purple. If I just say “Oh my gosh, you insist it is purple.” without evaluating whether or not that person is right, I could very well be going down the wrong path.

I have no problem with the Church insisting that every sexual act be open to procreation and that we cannot thwart sex’s nature. What I disagree with is how sexual responses and behaviors work in people. That’s not a moral disagreement.

The moral disagreement is about the term unity. If it is the emotional bonding, than one has to work at both protecting that emotional bond that is forming as well as protecting the procreative end of sex. However if it merely means intercourse, than the bonding is irrelevant and sex is really truthfully only for making babies, because sexual pleasure is actually really a corrupting evil force that can only be morally rationalized by having sexual intercourse. Because even though sex is supposed to be full of joy and pleasure, I guess some people are just unlucky because sex is painful, frustrating, difficult, etc. The list can go on. I mean, when you get to a point where you realize that the one rule is leading you to teach your husband to treat you as a blow up doll, you know something is faulty.

Anyway, it seems this discussion just led to what I suspected. No one has a good argument for their interpretation of the word unity. Thank you for clarifying that. It makes me feel more secure about my husband and I’s moral judgment.
 
See, this is where I think everyone is wrong. The Church only specifies a very limited number of actions as sinful. It does not give an exhaustive list. If you went strictly by the Catechism, the only violations against chastity would be lust, masturbation, fornication, prostitution, rape, homosexual acts, adultery and contraception. The rest of the Catechism gives moral principals to make specific moral judgments with. These tend to be difficult to interpret which is why we end up having a million and one questions about “Is it ok to kiss your girlfriend? Is is a sin to sleep in the same bed with her? Is daydreaming about sex a sin? What if I’m falling asleep or just waking up?”

The Church wisely does not actually address these areas directly. She gives moral principals. Not all of those moral principles for evaluating whether or not an act is chaste is included in the section of regarding chastity. You also have to consider the sections on concupiscence, the formation of conscience, the nature of vice, a person’s culpability, etc., etc, etc.

And yet how many times do we have posters asking “It his a mortal sin?” The truth is that there are only two people who know that answer: You and God. The Church can tell you if it is a grave offense, it can help form your conscience. It can help you to discern between the temptation to deny that something is sinful in order to indulge yourself and that of being overscruplous.

The problem is that we’re the ones demanding a simple rule book. Why do we want that rule book? Because we want to practice our religion by paying our dues and then living our life the way we want to live it. Moreover I think we’re also afraid of being wrong. We don’t trust ourselves to make the right moral judgment. Perhaps part of this is because we don’t always understand the logic of the Church and whenever we disagree we’re encouraged to ignore our disagreement and to blindly follow other people’s consciences. Sometimes I think that is necessary to a degree, but overall our attitude must be theological; faith seeking understanding.

This is why I was not asking if what my husband and I are doing is immoral. This is my husband’s and I’s situation to evaulate. What I was asking about was the intrepretation of the meaning of the word “unity” because how that word is interpreted sort of repositions all the other facts to make a moral judgment with. Its like if I was told to look for all the red cubes and someone kept turning to me and insisting “That is not red. That’s purple.” Well then I need to figure out why that person thinks what I think is red is actually purple. If I just say “Oh my gosh, you insist it is purple.” without evaluating whether or not that person is right, I could very well be going down the wrong path.

I have no problem with the Church insisting that every sexual act be open to procreation and that we cannot thwart sex’s nature. What I disagree with is how sexual responses and behaviors work in people. That’s not a moral disagreement.

The moral disagreement is about the term unity. If it is the emotional bonding, than one has to work at both protecting that emotional bond that is forming as well as protecting the procreative end of sex. However if it merely means intercourse, than the bonding is irrelevant and sex is really truthfully only for making babies, because sexual pleasure is actually really a corrupting evil force that can only be morally rationalized by having sexual intercourse. Because even though sex is supposed to be full of joy and pleasure, I guess some people are just unlucky because sex is painful, frustrating, difficult, etc. The list can go on. I mean, when you get to a point where you realize that the one rule is leading you to teach your husband to treat you as a blow up doll, you know something is faulty.

Anyway, it seems this discussion just led to what I suspected. No one has a good argument for their interpretation of the word unity. Thank you for clarifying that. It makes me feel more secure about my husband and I’s moral judgment.
I think I agree with much of what you have posted above. I disagree with your final conclusion. Masturbation to completion whether its within marriage or not is still wrong. The fact that our bodies don’t always allow us to implement what our intellects know is right does not cease to make something wrong. It does however lessen or make null the culpability of the action.

For instance lets think of another situation. Lets say a wife wishes to have sex. Her husband is not able to fulfill said wish for physical reasons. In principle denying his wife sex is wrong, and even though he is unable to fulfill this duty it is still wrong. His culpability in refusing her though is very low if not non-existent. They could even decide to make an attempt to have intercourse, and the man could bring his wife to climax in preparation for that event. If intercourse was not possible when it came time, the man would not be wrong in bringing his wife to climax before because he made every attempt to engage in intercourse ordered towards procreation.

The principle remains, but the culpability for the action varies. Every attempt should be made to fulfill the act according to the principle.
 
@Wardog
“each and every marital act”
haha the “marital act” is incredibly vague and is so on purpose. The best definition your going to get is male climaxes in woman he is married to. I don’t get where your getting this genital contact only thing.

@twoangels
This is a nice explanation that gives further insight into the idea of “one flesh”.

skipmoen.com/tag/basar/
It’s a cross.
The link you gave me was nice. I don’t disagree with it. Intercourse is definitely a very significant sexual act that other acts cannot substitute for. Sex is not so much about the pleasure but that unity and the mystery of that unity. However, when you’ve already engaged in intercourse to the point that the wife is getting source and the husband is at a point where he’s far enough to want to climax but not far enough to climax without more stimulation, I would say it is immoral and even thwarts the unity of husband and wife to claim that either the wife has to grin and bear it (even though sexual pain can cause sexual dysfunction and moreover destroy unity on the emotional and spiritual end so that it is only taking place in the physical end and is as unifying as rape is) or risk leaving your husband tempted to masturbate by himself (because sorry honey I’m morally superior to you and won’t do that. You’re sexual desires are bad bad bad. You failed sex and you failed me and now you’re being punished) and reducing his ability to perform next time. why does it reduce his ability the next time. Because he knows its far more important to get the sexual act physically right than it is for the act to be truly self donative to the capacity in can be.

I mean even when intercourse occurs, it does not universally have the same amount of unity. Sometimes you have profound spiritual experiences of unity in the act where you’re completely lost in each other. Other times its not such a profound experience. Whatever the experience is, that experience cannot be forced. It is only something that you can surrender to. In the end, you never know what is in store for you.
 
The link you gave me was nice. I don’t disagree with it. Intercourse is definitely a very significant sexual act that other acts cannot substitute for. Sex is not so much about the pleasure but that unity and the mystery of that unity. However, when you’ve already engaged in intercourse to the point that the wife is getting source and the husband is at a point where he’s far enough to want to climax but not far enough to climax without more stimulation, I would say it is immoral and even thwarts the unity of husband and wife to claim that either the wife has to grin and bear it (even though sexual pain can cause sexual dysfunction and moreover destroy unity on the emotional and spiritual end so that it is only taking place in the physical end and is as unifying as rape is) or risk leaving your husband tempted to masturbate by himself (because sorry honey I’m morally superior to you and won’t do that. You’re sexual desires are bad bad bad. You failed sex and you failed me and now you’re being punished) and reducing his ability to perform next time. why does it reduce his ability the next time. Because he knows its far more important to get the sexual act physically right than it is for the act to be truly self donative to the capacity in can be.

I mean even when intercourse occurs, it does not universally have the same amount of unity. Sometimes you have profound spiritual experiences of unity in the act where you’re completely lost in each other. Other times its not such a profound experience. Whatever the experience is, that experience cannot be forced. It is only something that you can surrender to. In the end, you never know what is in store for you.
Agreed, but we strive for complete unity every time and do what we can to achieve this. Like you said we don’t always succeed, but don’t ever settle for anything less. Keep your eyes on the prize and struggle through it step by step.
 
I assume you disagree with Humanae Vitae?
No. I don’t think humanae vitae is saying anything differently than I am saying. To abstain from sex on your fertile days is to have sex only on your infertile days. Even though total continence seems to be promoted on these boards, the Church has traditionally discouraged total continence. You have to get special permission to enter a Josephite Marriage. Then there is the fact that conjugal rights used to be referred to as the marriage debt. St. Paul even discourages long periods of abstinence. We can abstain for a period of time through mutual consent but we are urged to come back together.

What needs to be emphasized though in a particular culture tends to change over time. But recently my husband and I have been pulling up old newspaper articles and columns from the time of the Anglican Lambreth Council when the Anglican Church stated that contraceptives could be used in serious circumstances (I find it funny that they actually said serious circumstances). But the spacing of births per Catholic morality was understood exclusively in terms of abstainence.

More recently the Church has been trying to affirm that it sees sex as a positive thing, not merely something that can only be rationalized through the begetting of children. As such, the sexual activity is emphasized over the abstainence and debt has changed into rights.
 
I see what your point is. Your basically saying the couple both go into sex with the intent to have it ordered towards procreation. It doesn’t happen, but you are still left with a man completely fired up to go and to leave him at this point time after time can cause lasting problems. I can see the difficulty this would cause and I would feel safe saying that any actions after would have less culpability and may be considered venial sins in most cases and would not be grave sins. I would talk to a priest though and get help working through the spiritual aspects of the problem.
thank you. That’s good advise. I’ll have to work on building up the courage to do that.
 
Agreed, but we strive for complete unity every time and do what we can to achieve this. Like you said we don’t always succeed, but don’t ever settle for anything less. Keep your eyes on the prize and struggle through it step by step.
That’s exactly what we’re doing. Its like we’re in this maze and we’ve hit a wall. Its counterintiutive, but in order to get to the goal, we have to walk away from the goal to get past the wall. Does that help you to understand where I’m coming from?
 
I hope you can see Wardog’s sarcasm coming through in all of his posts 😉 He is not a fan of Church teaching on this matter and is just trying to stir dissent. I have argued with him enough in the past to know where he stands on the issue haha. He is right though in this matter regardless of the sarcasm that the Church teaches that every act should be non-contraceptive and you can’t just say in general the whole of my marriage is non-contraceptive. Would you ever be content with saying you loved your spouse in general most of the time? You go forward with the intent to try and succeed every time, because Jesus told us it was possible with his help. To settle for less is to doubt God.
Hmmm…I’m not sure I see the sarcasm. I married my husband while contracepting and having pre-marital sex with him, not knowing how serious this was. I still disagree with the Church on some points, but we are now reluctantly obedient to her teachings. Does this make my marriage invalid? I think not.
 
Hmmm…I’m not sure I see the sarcasm. I married my husband while contracepting and having pre-marital sex with him, not knowing how serious this was. I still disagree with the Church on some points, but we are now reluctantly obedient to her teachings. Does this make my marriage invalid? I think not.
No. You have to concent to accepting children. If you went in with the intention of never having children, than it would be invalid. However using contraceptives to space or delay children is simply a violation of chastity. It doesn’t mean you’re not married.
 
I don’t think this is true. As long as the couple is open to life in general, the marriage is valid. Intending to contracept at some point or not fully understanding the Church teaching regarding the practice doesn’t make a marriage invalid.
I stand corrected. I was presuming the couple knew the Church’s teachings.

My bad.
 
My last post on the thread…sorry if I came across insensitively in my posts.

Please read Good News about Sex and Marriage…pgs 89-91 specifically.
 
No. I don’t think humanae vitae is saying anything differently than I am saying. To abstain from sex on your fertile days is to have sex only on your infertile days.
If this is the case, then NFP obviously isn’t abstinence, which is what I’ve said all along.
Even though total continence seems to be promoted on these boards, the Church has traditionally discouraged total continence. You have to get special permission to enter a Josephite Marriage. Then there is the fact that conjugal rights used to be referred to as the marriage debt. St. Paul even discourages long periods of abstinence. We can abstain for a period of time through mutual consent but we are urged to come back together.
When it comes to this, to each their own. There are married couples that haven’t had sex in decades; I even know one such couple. They just have not desire to do so, so they don’t do it. If they have no desire to do so, there is no by the Church to do so.

If one of the couple desires sex, obviously the situation is different.
 
Actually you are wrong. God did not order him to have children. It was Judah who told him to do this. Judah was his father, but after Onan was married no man, father or not would have the right to command him to have a child. Also note that God punished him for “he did”. He did not punish him for he did NOT do which was to not obey his father, even though as I stated before, once married he would not be bound by this any longer. Also if we took this in the context that others who have posted here about how “in general” a marriage has to be ordered towards procreation then God could not have punished Onan because he had not waited to see if he would eventually give Tamar an offspring. Unlikely but he could have had a change of heart.
I’m not one that believes that Bible was written like a bar exam, which specifically includes irrelevant information to trick people. The order was in there for a reason.

If the story is read in the context of one disobeying God, the story makes perfect sense. Disobey God, be struck down.

If it is not read in this context, more questions arise than are answered. Why only Onan?
 
I’m not one that believes that Bible was written like a bar exam, which specifically includes irrelevant information to trick people. The order was in there for a reason.

If the story is read in the context of one disobeying God, the story makes perfect sense. Disobey God, be struck down.

If it is not read in this context, more questions arise than are answered. Why only Onan?
This is pretty weak. First off he didn’t disobey an order given by God as I already showed. The “order” was given by his father Judah. Have you ever disobeyed your father? How many other times in the Bible was someone killed for disobeying their dad? Also, as mentioned he was married. That commandment no longer applied once a man was married back then. Obviously they would still respect their father’s, but it would not have the weight of a command given while he was still under his father’s roof.
which specifically includes irrelevant information to trick people
Maybe you should stop reading into it. If reading it for the first time would you take such lengths to come to read it to show that contraception was not said to be wrong here? No one struggled with this passage for almost 2000 years. Even Protestants were on board for quite awhile until 1930. If it was so hard to figure out what the passage meant, why can you show me no debate over it in the past before say the year 1900?
 
This is pretty weak. First off he didn’t disobey an order given by God as I already showed. The “order” was given by his father Judah. Have you ever disobeyed your father? How many other times in the Bible was someone killed for disobeying their dad? Also, as mentioned he was married. That commandment no longer applied once a man was married back then. Obviously they would still respect their father’s, but it would not have the weight of a command given while he was still under his father’s roof.
I assume you consider that one person being struck down for “pulling out” in the entire history of man is strong evidence against masturbation?
Maybe you should stop reading into it. If reading it for the first time would you take such lengths to come to read it to show that contraception was not said to be wrong here? No one struggled with this passage for almost 2000 years. Even Protestants were on board for quite awhile until 1930. If it was so hard to figure out what the passage meant, why can you show me no debate over it in the past before say the year 1900?
I would substitute “no one” with “religious leaders”…well, “religious leaders minus Jesus.”
 
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