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Isaac14
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Dude - you’re the one who made such a huge deal of this in one of you previous posts as being the reference to the Catholic Church. So now it isn’t?
Seriously? No substantive response from you, huh?
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steve-b
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The DNA of all this division that came from the 16th century is Protestant.steve-b:
I would re-read the article I posted Steve. It directly addresses Mr. Ray’s error here:
"However strong the temptation some may have to characterize anything not Catholic or Orthodox as “Protestant,” you can’t do that. All that tells Protestant apologists is that you don’t know what Protestantism is, or what its distinctives are—and they would be right.
All these 10’s of thousands of divisions are heresies by definition.
Jesus doesn’t allow division FROM His Church. I’ve posted lots of times for the “bible Christians” benefit, that shows “bible Christians” that they really don’t know the scriptures they claim to follow alone for their belief systems
As Steve Ray noted,
all those Catholic “denominations” in that resource, when identified individually, are all in complete unity with the pope.
Who are the 10’s of thousands of independent Protestants united with? The point is they aren’t united. NO ONE is in charge. They operate individually as their own denomination.
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steve-b
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steve-b:
That would be true if these communities mention the CC or its dogmatic errors in our communities and messages, but we rarely do, if ever thruout the year.
where do they learn all the negatives that they have regarding the Catholic beliefs?AND
And look what has happened to THEM 500 yrs later, it’s division on steroids.
Re: Luther
The father of Protestantism
His errors were listed. Protestantism still holds to his many errors today.
Sounds like what the Protestants did to Catholics in the beginning.
who is coercing anyone?
Are consequences good or bad, for our actions a natural phenomenon? Yes
When Jesus gives a do this or else statement, is He coercing one to do something or proposing strongly that something is to be done one way to avoid bad consequences?
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TULIPed
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Just to be clear - everything you responded to wasn’t written by me - it was written by a Catholic author in a Catholic publication. The way it shows up in your response makes it look like I wrote it (I know this was unintentional). Allow me to re-post it for reference:
While I’m sure Mr. Ray is a solid source, I’m equally as sure the NCR is at least as reputable.
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steve-b
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DUDE,steve-b:
Dude - you’re the one who made such a huge deal of this in one of you previous posts as being the reference to the Catholic Church. So now it isn’t?
Seriously? No substantive response from you, huh?
You keep making the point about either Rome is not mentioned, or Roman Catholic isn’t mentioned
I showe where Catholic Churcvh is first used in writing
THEN
when asked, I showed (link provided) so it was properly referenced, how the Church of Rome was said to have preeminent authority, as in authority over all Churches. And THAT understanding came down from Peter and Paul in Rome.
As for substantive responses,
You really have no room to criticize
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steve-b
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actually I wasn’t criticizing either.steve-b:
Just to be clear - everything you responded to wasn’t written by me - it was written by a Catholic author in a Catholic publication. The way it shows up in your response makes it look like I wrote it (I know this was unintentional). Allow me to re-post it for reference:
We Need to Stop Saying That There Are 33,000 Protestant Denominations| National Catholic Register
While I’m sure Mr. Ray is a solid source, I’m equally as sure the NCR is at least as reputable.
I merely showed the response of Steve Ray, because the criticism technically of 10’s of thousands of sects/denominations whatever term is used, as not being realistic is really not so incorrect or unrealistic
For example
Simple definitions:
Denomination = a recognized autonomous branch of the Christian Church.
Autonomous = independent, self govern itself, . sovereign,
So
Would you agree, given what we know about individual Protestant churches
That
If one looks at any Protestant “church”, and ask them who do you answer to, most will say they are their own sovereign organization. They answer to themselves not anybody else. in their own management style. Therefore each is a separate church. Separate name. Separate founder, They make their own doctrines, etc therefore they qualify as a denomination.
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lanman87
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Christ. By the indwelling Holy Spirit, if they have indeed been born again/converted/regenerated/changed/had their heart of stone replaced by a heart of flesh…however you want to put it.
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steve-b
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Yetsteve-b:
Christ. By the indwelling Holy Spirit, if they have indeed been born again/converted/regenerated/changed/had their heart of stone replaced by a heart of flesh…however you want to put it.
Just being transparent,
If the definition, of unity is sooooooo squishy in definition, how then, or why then, does the HS teach the following which is quite the opposite?
Rom 16: 17 I appeal to you, brethren, to take note of those who create dissensions διχοστασίαι and difficulties, in opposition to the doctrine which you have been taught; avoid them. 18 For such persons do not serve our Lord Christ, but their own appetites,[a] and by fair and flattering words they deceive the hearts of the simple-minded. 19 For while your obedience is known to all, so that I rejoice over you, I would have you wise as to what is good and guileless ἀκέραιος innocent as to what is evil; 20 then the God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet.
Paul is writing to the Church of Rome. As it says, division is NOT from Jesus but from Satan.
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lanman87
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Don’t you realize that all these “divisions” you keep quoting isn’t talking about division from the Roman Catholic church. They are things that cause people to be drawn away from the Gospel of Christ or to not believe in Christ or to question the truth of the Gospel that was taught by Paul and the others.
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steve-b
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Division = all of thissteve-b:
Don’t you realize that all these “divisions” you keep quoting isn’t talking about division from the Roman Catholic church. They are things that cause people to be drawn away from the Gospel of Christ or to not believe in Christ or to question the truth of the Gospel that was taught by Paul and the others.
- leaving the Catholic Church
- Not returning to the Catholic Church
- Not entering the Catholic Church
20 “I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word, 21 that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 The glory which thou hast given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, 23 I in them and thou in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that thou hast sent me and hast loved them even as thou hast loved me.
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mcq72
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Can you let go of someone you dont really have? He wanted them to go because He really didn’ t have them. He cut to the chase, upped the ante, speaking of His death (eating, drinking His blood), and His departure thru ascension to end the vanity of following Him improperly (without true faith).
Well at least we are united in being non Roman Catholic.
Even JW’s can claim your kind of unity within themselves.
I thought each of us were a pope unto ourselves?
By studying, experiencing the real thing, even the postives, even as much as the Catholics have them.
That is how counterfeit police do it. They look at real money, day in and day out during training, until they can spot a bad bill inserted amongst the real instantly.
Yes, certainly an insurmountable hurdle for a Catholic. Just like hanging out with sinners, working on the sabbath, not fasting, etc., tripped up the Pharisees, making it impossible for them to believe in Jesus.
As CC errors were listed also, and many still held today (practices, but all doctrinal error still held).
They learned from their predecessors.
Oh please…as you imply, most mainline churches also guilty here at one time or another in history.
Not always. Scripture says because judgement is delayed men, the world, continue in their sin. Some judgement is after death.
That is my point. Men have taken it upon themseves to be avengers of sin beyond civil sense, which is God ordained, and into realm of religious conformity which is very problematic.
Did Paul say obey me or my bishops or else you will be interogated by "Julius Caesar "(pagan Rome), maybe imprisoned or loss of property by their hand?
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Isaac14
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What, then, is the significance of the term “catholic church” appearing in writing?
And yet, your own Bishops and Theologians agreed in Chieti (statement published by the Vatican), that Rome never exercised authority over the East.
No reasonable Orthodox Christian today would deny that Rome had preeminence in the early church, largely, or entirely, due to their Orthodoxy, their solid faith, not just because Rome said so.
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lanman87
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Being united with Christ is what makes you united to the universal (catholic) church. Not being united with Rome.
The fact that there are millions upon millions who profess Christ in both word and deed and who are united with Christ by faith and the indwelling Holy Spirit and are not under the authority of Rome, shows that the Roman definition of “Catholic church” and the necessity of being under the authority of Rome is false.
Furthermore, being “Perfectly one” doesn’t come from us and our effort or understanding. It comes from Christ and what He has done and continues to do for us. He takes this rabble of mankind, with all our issues and prejudices and inability to comprehend the greatness of God, and makes those of us who have been changed by Christ into one in Christ.
For example, when a Baptist and Methodist come together to work for Christ that shows the unity Christ was talking about.
“so that the world may know that thou hast sent me and hast loved them even as thou hast loved me.”
and working together shows that you are truly “catholic”.
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mcq72
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steve-b
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steve-b:
Can you let go of someone you dont really have? He wanted them to go because He really didn’ t have them. He cut to the chase, upped the ante, speaking of His death (eating, drinking His blood), and His departure thru ascension to end the vanity of following Him improperly (without true faith).
THAT is a dangerous response … for Protestants did the same thing when THEY left His Church.
True, you are NOT Catholic therefore outside Our Lord’s Church
For space I’ll use links
This is an old argument, started by Satan, in the upper Room, between the apostles, over who among THEM is the greatest. Jesus ended their argument HERE
AND
For those who keep the argument going? Who are THEY serving? Jesus said it’s SATAN HERE
So
Jesus showed His apostles, that Peter is the greatest among THEM. Peter is to lead THEM. … ergo Peter, being the receiver of the keys, is to be the leader over the entire Church. Case closed. Argument over.
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Isaac14
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Steve-b locuta; causa finita est. :crazy_face:
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mcq72
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TULIPed
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How would you square that with this passage from scripture (Mark 9) Steve?
"38 “Teacher,” said John, “we saw someone driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us.”
39 “Do not stop him,” Jesus said. “For no one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, 40 for whoever is not against us is for us. 41 Truly I tell you, anyone who gives you a cup of water in my name because you belong to the Messiah will certainly not lose their reward."
Me thinks that perhaps Protestants have “given a cup of water” in His name a time or 2, no?
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mcq72
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By the measure that you judge you also will be judged.
Indeed who has faced the truth and been set free, and who has avoided truth and remains in bondage in judgement and fear?
Pure religionist and sectarian application of Katholos, of universalism. Sooo ironic.
You say:
“For those who keep the argument going? Who are THEY serving? Jesus said it’s SATAN”
You are keeping the argument going as to who is the greatest almost 2000 years after Peter and apostles laid our foundation.
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Isaac14
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Thank goodness for google translate. 
I didn’t even try to apply the correct declension to his name.
I didn’t even try to apply the correct declension to his name.
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