The Universal Church

[steve-b]

steve-b:

true reformers are from within.

Correct. True reformers did not come from Buddhism or Shintoism or Islam, but from within the church. The staus quo called them heretics.

True reformers didn’t come from the 16th century heretics, either. Ever read all the anathemas in the canons of TRENT addressing all the errors of those in revolt?

Councils, local and ecumenical is the proper way to handle reform.

mcq72:

Yes. That is how CC handled many reformers, tossing out everything they suggested and bearing down harder on justifying, decreeing the dogmas in question.

How were the Lutheran proposals received? Did they even make it to council level?

Trent addressed all the errors Protestants of all stripes committed.

who are, actually revolters

mcq72:

That is, was, a whole other issue back then when there was no freedom for such reformed religion.

Back then, They didn’t reform they revolted.

AND

In so doing, taught multiple errors as well.

 

[mcq72]

what made the sheep in the the house of Israel… lost? THEY are the first people of the covenant? Yet they are lost.

And you know there are many lost sheep in the house of God today also

Again He keeps His promises in ways unexpected to some . Can anything good come out of Nazareth, or from fisherman ?And from supposed heretical reformers?

 

[mcq72]

Ever read all the anathemas in the canons of TRENT addressing all the errors of those in revolt?

Precisely…like digging the hole deeper.

Back then, They didn’t reform they revolted.

Correct, they had no choice for lack of freedom to do otherwise that we have today.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

Ever read all the anathemas in the canons of TRENT addressing all the errors of those in revolt?

Precisely…like digging the hole deeper.

Holes THEY (the heretics) dug themselves

Back then, They didn’t reform they revolted.

mcq72:

Correct, they had no choice for lack of freedom to do otherwise that we have today.

Who was taking their freedom away?

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

what made the sheep in the the house of Israel… lost? THEY are the first people of the covenant? Yet they are lost.

And you know there are many lost sheep in the house of God today also

Again He keeps His promises in ways unexpected to some . Can anything good come out of Nazareth, or from fisherman ?And from supposed heretical reformers?

Choices people make have consequences.

 

[steve-b]

annad347:

Yes, and before you ask the priest from both churches know I do… they also know I go to both churches.

I have been thinking about your statement here and would like clarification. Specifically, the Catholic priest at the Catholic church you attend knows and condones that you also receive the Eucharist at the Lutheran Church? I always thought that was not allowed but maybe if a priest says it is ok, then it is ok. Catholics here on CAF often tell people to go and discuss with the priest so I guess whatever he says you should do.

You are correct. Can I Receive Protestant Communion? | Catholic Answers

 

[Tommy999]

This thread reminds me of a boxing match that has gone on way beyond the maximum 15 rounds. Both sides have given and taken their share of punches (good points), yet neither steve-b or mcq72 want to be the first to leave the boxing ring out of fear of being accused of being the loser.

It seems inevitable that neither will convince the other to see things his way, and in the end they will have to agree to disagree. After all, this debate has been going on since the 1500’s. What makes you think you can resolve it here? At least both mcq72 and steve-b get high marks for their tenacity.

Continuing the boxing analogy, I think the only person you’ve successfully knocked out is me. Muting this thread now.

It’s like watching the “Groundhog Day” movie on a religious forum and I’ve finally had enough. No offense intended to anyone. May God bless all who read this.

 

[lanman87]

Do I get some kind of award for starting a 2300+ post topic?

 

[mcq72]

Holes THEY (the heretics) dug themselves

How much dirt is in a 3’x3’x3’ hole?

None. It’s a hole.

A little pandemically induced humor.

 

[mcq72]

Do I get some kind of award for starting a 2300+ post topic?

It’s the thread that just keeps on giving.

Just a fantastic opening!

Perhaps self indulgent is the continuance but hopefully more to see than reeds skaken in the wind.

 

[mcq72]

Who was taking their freedom away?

Is this where we all wash our hands like Pilate?

Choices people make have consequences.

And sometimes my people perish for lack of knowledge…wo to false teachings and teachers and practices that cloud the light of the gospel

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

Couched between all the verbage, is that the disagreements are still over the same issues.

I though it was a pretty big deal to come the agreement that Rome did not exercise canonical authority over the East during the first millennium

The issue being discussed was Synodality and Primacy during the First Millennium: IOW authority

NOW

Today … When ~70% of Orthodoxy is in schism with your own EP, THAT is a major authority issue within Orthodoxy.

 

[Isaac14]

The issue being discussed was Synodality and Primacy during the First Millennium: IOW authority

NOW

Today … When ~70% of Orthodoxy is in schism with your own EP, THAT is a major authority issue within Orthodoxy.

Yes, authority was discussed, and both the Catholics and Orthodox agreed Rome never exercised authority over the East.

You keep bringing up the situation between Russia and Constantinople as if it impacts the ongoing dialogue between the Orthodox and Catholic Church. It hasn’t, as is evidenced by the November 2019 meeting listed on the Pontifical Commission’s website (which I’ve already linked to).

 

[steve-b]

This thread reminds me of a boxing match that has gone on way beyond the maximum 15 rounds. Both sides have given and taken their share of punches (good points), yet neither steve-b or mcq72 want to be the first to leave the boxing ring out of fear of being accused of being the loser.

It seems inevitable that neither will convince the other to see things his way, and in the end they will have to agree to disagree. After all, this debate has been going on since the 1500’s. What makes you think you can resolve it here? At least both mcq72 and steve-b get high marks for their tenacity.

In actuality, as we all know, depending on the word used, Heresy / divisive./ schism αἱρετικὸν , AND Schism σχίσμα, ατος, τό , AND Division / dissension διχοστασίαι , have been condemned from the beginning… IOW the warning is, those sins keep one from entering heaven.

Does that warning do the job of correction? NOPE

Tommy999:

Continuing the boxing analogy, I think the only person you’ve successfully knocked out is me. Muting this thread now.

Since this sin along with other sins continues Jesus said few are saved

Since Humanity is obstinate and doesn’t change, as Jesus also said

That said

If people just gave up trying to change errors

CAF wouldn’t be here either.

 

[annad347]

I personally think God would welcome you both into heaven, two people who are discussing Him with such passion should be welcomed into the arms of Our Father.

God Bless you both.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

The issue being discussed was Synodality and Primacy during the First Millennium: IOW authority

NOW

Today … When ~70% of Orthodoxy is in schism with your own EP, THAT is a major authority issue within Orthodoxy.

Yes, authority was discussed, and both the Catholics and Orthodox agreed Rome never exercised authority over the East.

You’re changing terms used.

Synodality and Primacy is still on the table.

Isaac14:

You keep bringing up the situation between Russia and Constantinople as if it impacts the ongoing dialogue between the Orthodox and Catholic Church. It hasn’t, as is evidenced by the November 2019 meeting listed on the Pontifical Commission’s website (which I’ve already linked to).

When the Russians boycotted what was supposed to be the Pan Orthodox council, in 2016, that shows where ~70% of Orthodoxy is to this day. Unless you know differently, that schism between the EP and the Russian Orthodox, is still in place.

 

[Isaac14]

You’re changing terms used.

Fine, here is the text copied from the document:

Appeals to the bishop of Rome from the East expressed the communion of the Church, but the bishop of Rome did not exercise canonical authority over the churches of the East.

Is it substantially different from what I said?

Further, I have never claimed that this solves all issues related to synodality or primacy, but it is a big step in the right direction.

When the Russians boycotted what was supposed to be the Pan Orthodox council, in 2016, that shows where ~70% of Orthodoxy is to this day. Unless you know differently, that schism between the EP and the Russian Orthodox, is still in place

This is an issue internal to the Orthodox Church. I haven’t said this issue has gone away, only that it does not impact the ongoing dialogue between the Catholic and Orthodox Church.

Perhaps you remember me explaining how the break in communion represents at best only a partial schism? You can scroll back and find that post, but in summary, Russia broke off Eucharistic relations with Constantinople, but Constantinople did not do the same to Russia. Each church is still very much in communion with churches that remain in communion with both Russia & Constantinople, so indirectly they are indeed still in communion. If this current one way break turns into something more, or if other churches start also breaking communion, then and only then can we really consider this a schism.

 

[Margaret_Ann]

steve-b:

who are actually revolters

That is, was, a whole other issue back then when there was no freedom for such reformed religion

Error has no rights: http://www.vatican.va/content/leo-xiii/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_l-xiii_enc_20061888_libertas.html

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

Who was taking their freedom away?

And sometimes my people perish for lack of knowledge…wo to false teachings and teachers and practices that cloud the light of the gospel

Given that

God desires all to be saved AND come to the knowledge of truth [1 Tim 2:4]

then

It’s pretty hard for a person today, given all the graces God is pouring out on everyone to come to the knowledge of the truth, to then plead ignorance on issues they are bound to know, given how easy it is today, to gain information at one’s own fingertips, today.

There are over 7 billion smart phones in circulation today. That is almost 1 smart phone (hand held massive computer) per person alive on the planet.

 

[Margaret_Ann]

s served the Eucharist even though the priest knows full well he is not Catholic.

1 Cor. 11: 23-32.